Want post moves inside for Golden State?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:44 pm
Why not abandon this need to grab Eddy Curry's 80-year-old heart problems and look at what we actually need: Ike Diogu is supposed to bring a post game... this guy's already got one of the best post games in the league, while averaging 19 points a contest. Troy Murphy averages 10 rebounds a game? This guy grabs a decent 9.6 boards a game. Need a passing forward? Hey, 2 assists per game isn't bad.

Who could I be talking about? It's obvious: lets trade Troy Murphy, cash, and draft picks for Portland's Zach Randolph. Think about it: Ike can learn from one of the current best post players in the league, our rebounding stays consistent (we don't even lose one a game), passing is natural for him, double teams are bound to happen, he defends better than Murph does, and he'll make Foyle look better by cleaning up ever area that Adonal doesn't do (all the while, letting Foyle keep the rejection category). Am I the only one who see's this guy tying up all our lose knots?

Don't think Portland is interested? Well, the way I see it, Zach Randolph played as well as he did with a falling apart Damon Stoudamire, an unmotivated Shareef, and a laid back Darius Miles. His whole team gave up last year and he was the only one getting shots. Randolph barely edged out 4 more points than Murph. That's two extra buckets. Meanwhile, Golden State's offense has never been ran through Troy Murphy but, regardless, he's piled up 15 points a contest. He's a soft shooter with the guts to haul down boards on both ends. Given the lead position, he just may be more useful to Portland than Zach Randolph. He could turn out to be a 20 point scorer (maybe higher) because of all the extra shots, along with his awesome rebounding, and his over 70% free throw shooting could be useful if he gets hammered inside (like most lead players do). Troy's numbers could increase to 22.5 and 10.0 if given the head position. He's been third in command for a long time, behind Jason and whoever else is in (Baron, Mike, Mickael, Derek, ect). Being thrust into the spot light may improve his game.

I don't think we should trade either Baron or Jason to get him (and that's probably who Portland would be asking for in exchange for their current star), but if we could nab him for any other players, I'd give it the green light. Who's with me?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:26 am
Firstly, Randolph would not accept being the third option, while Murphy is used to it and that is what makes him effective - not being the primary offensive weapon and not getting all the defensive attention from the opposition.

Secondly, Randolph has had issues and Mullin would not want a guy that has a bad attitude and is likely to spend some time in jail!

The Blazers would want Murphy, Dunleavy and another guy and atleast one 1st round pick for their best player! That is way too much for a guy that might not work here!

Murphy has been great in the Warriors and Diogu has to be given a chance to show what he can do! I reckon Elton Brand or Pau Gasol could be a better fit for the Warriors if they want to trade for a Power Forward.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:44 am
Randolph is untradeable. Portland is building around him.

Second, Randolph plays as little defense as Murphy so what are we gaining? We need a defensive big.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:25 pm
I'd agree with both of you to a certain extent. But I believe that Randolph would take the 3rd spot on a winning team rather than be a star on a losing team. I also think he plays better than Murphy in every aspect, other than rebounding, so our defense would improve somewhat, while our offense gains another weapon. It wouldn't hurt anything, it would only help.

The only thing in the way, like you said dsigns, is the fact that Portland might be gripping a little too tight on him right about now.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:18 pm
Randolf? Why doesnt any one realize that he is a post player who shoot 44%. I mean 44%, plus u get bad defense, extremely bad passing, and lots of turnovers, plus a huge contract. And oh yeah weight problems. Plus if he plays for the trailblazers, then he must be hooked on weed. 8)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:28 pm
HelloNewman100 wrote:Randolf? Why doesnt any one realize that he is a post player who shoot 44%. I mean 44%, plus u get bad defense, extremely bad passing, and lots of turnovers, plus a huge contract. And oh yeah weight problems. Plus if he plays for the trailblazers, then he must be hooked on weed. 8)


44% - Well, he's kind of their go-to guy. He shoots more than anybody else on their team. He's gonna miss a few more shots. Regardless, his % is better than Troy.

Bad Defense - Same with Troy... your point?

Bad Passing - Averages 2 assists per game. Thats better than Murph

Turnovers - ONE more per game than Murphy...

Weight - Eddy Curry's got weight problems. Doesn't look like it bothers most people on this board.

Weed - ... um, hmmm.... yeah, probably
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:56 am
If your looking for a PF that you won't have to trade almost half the team for but only Murphy and maybe one other guy - Pau Gasol and Elton Brand. Carlos the Boozer be a possibility (but is he worth it?????)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:09 am
If those are the choices, I'd go with Elton Brand over Zach Randolph. I only said Randolph to begin with because he's not the best power forward in the league, but he's got post moves and that's what we need to teach Ike.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:50 am
Player32 wrote:If those are the choices, I'd go with Elton Brand over Zach Randolph. I only said Randolph to begin with because he's not the best power forward in the league, but he's got post moves and that's what we need to teach Ike.


First of all Ike probably has as much crafty-ness around the hoop than randolf, second of all u either have it or dont, otherwise the way foyle's work ethic is; he should be the best post player in the league by now.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:04 am
HelloNewman100 wrote:second of all u either have it or dont, otherwise the way foyle's work ethic is; he should be the best post player in the league by now.


I dunno if I agree with that. I think that Chris Webber learned a ton of his inside tricks from Vlade Divac, including a couple post moves. Vlade taught Chris how to flop and get a foul call, he taught him where to look to be a quicker passer, and he taught him a couple new steps around the hole. Sure, Webber was a good post/passing player before, but he really flourished under the guidance of Divac.

In that sense, I do agree that you need to have it to begin with. But I also think that giving Ike a few more tricks wouldn't hurt. Even Adonal Foyle's offensive game gained a hook shot and a little jumper inside the key under the careful eye of Terry Cummings. Prior to Cummings, Foyle's offense was non-existent. After one season with TC, Foyle gained a couple new tricks in his offensive game. The reason Foyle still can't play the post for anything is because he's never had a teacher who could show him how. TC was always a quick center (not one to use many post moves), Eric Dampier is not an offensive center unless it's a dunk, and Dale Davis was purely rebounding and defense. If Foyle had an actual, legit teacher to show him a couple moves, I think it'd work better than simply him practicing with the coach.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:04 pm
Player32 wrote:Why not abandon this need to grab Eddy Curry's 80-year-old heart problems and look at what we actually need: Ike Diogu is supposed to bring a post game... Who's with me?


I am. finaly someone agrees with me that curry is not gonna be comin to the bay area.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:55 pm
Dale Davis had no jump shot but I can remember how he could shoot quite well after Larry Bird taught him to in Indiana! It was remarkable how a guy played for over 7 years and then all of a sudden just got the ability to shoot - Guys just don't gain moves because they don't want to or don't have the creativity to think of moves and then practise them!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:49 pm
Yeah, I agree. I think that HelloNewman100's statement about "having it, or not" doesn't apply to this situation. Post moves are one of the many things that can be taught in the league, along with the ability to shoot, defend, or dribble/pass. Heart and desire are two things you can't teach, but post moves are a different story.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:48 pm
Player32 wrote:Yeah, I agree. I think that HelloNewman100's statement about "having it, or not" doesn't apply to this situation. Post moves are one of the many things that can be taught in the league, along with the ability to shoot, defend, or dribble/pass. Heart and desire are two things you can't teach, but post moves are a different story.


Basketball is a lot like speaking a language/singing, if u want to be really really good u have to learn it at an early age. Other wise u are going to be behind the eight ball. Of course u can get better at the post, I mean just look at guys like Hakeem and Kareem, but there are others who arent born with the same brain type as those guys. I dont think Chandler will ever be a good post player, while cris bosh has learned a ton since he came into the league. More than a good teacher u need a certain "brain chemistry"" that dictates your ability to grasp things u think and then quickly convert then into reactionary moves on the court.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:42 pm
I don't quite follow what you mean. It sounds like you're saying that some people are more likely to learn than others. While I totally agree, I'd also like to point out that, like learning at a young age, it's easier for players to learn while their careers are at an early point. Ike Diogu will probably learn and improve more in his first 5 seasons that he will throughout the rest of his career. Sure, some players have breakout seasons late in their career, but players generally learn their game early on. Tyson Chandler is something of a verteran at this point (coming into his 5th season), while Chris Bosh is only going into his 3rd.

Not to say that players can't adjust. Larry Johnson was a perfect example. He switched from being a bulldozing inside scorer who could fly above opponents to a midrange-3point artist with slick up and under moves. His rebounding evolved from brute strength to strategic positioning. While some say Johnson never truly recaptured his earlier success, it can't be denied that he totally transformed his game into almost a new player. Learning and changing is apart of the game.

Adding skills is just as likely. Kobe Bryant & Michael Jordan both came into the league lacking defense, but turning it into one of their strengths. Shaquille O'Neal was a simple dunk on the offensive end before learning to shoot his hook shot. Every player that comes in adjusts his game at some point in time.

I think your point is addressing players like Shawn Bradley who, no matter what they try, can't improve their game. While I'll admit that a minority of players out there fall into this category, I'd have to disagree if you're trying to place Ike Diogu in it as well. He shows unlimited potential to grow and improve. However, that's just my opinion. Who knows. Maybe Ike will enter the league and exit it with the same level of game he always had. But I doubt it.
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