Game Thread: Washington Wizards @ Warriors 2007-03-23

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Can the Warriors take care of the Wizards?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:38 pm

YES
15
100%
NO
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Total votes : 15

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:27 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
JayPat wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:- Baron Davis unquestionably outplayed Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert's crazy ass, in equal time, netted 5 less points, 5 less rebounds, 2 less assists, and shot 20% worse from the field than Baron. Health aside, NOBODY should ever question who the better player is between those two. Crunch time was the best example: Gilbert tried to pick his team up by carrying them on his own, whereas Baron picked his team up by getting everyone into it (and sustaining the team's energy). Clearly, we're in better hands with Baron.

I disagree. This was Baron's best game of the season and just an average game for Arenas.

You don't think that Baron, in equal minutes, is the better player?

Arenas might be the better scorer (by a hair, thanks to his 3-point range), but Baron is a much better team general, playmaker, tempo-changer, and defender. All of the reasons that Arenas is considered "better" than Baron all have to do with issues that don't relate to their games (ie, Baron's injury prone, Baron can't play as many minutes).

I believe, in equal time, Baron Davis is the better player. Without question.

Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.


I mostly agree, especially since Arenas is my favorite player. But, Baron is a better rebounder (equal rebounding stat but Baron gets 5 less minutes a game), and a better stealer (same reason)/defender. Also, Arenas is a below-average passing PG, while Baron is an above-average scoring PG and an excellent passing PG.

Even if Gilbert has an edge on leading the team, it's not by much and Baron is a good leader in my opinion.

the rebounding difference is like .05 boards per 48 minutes. It is equal.

Steals are slightly ahead for Baron, but steals are not the only indicator of defense, or the warriors wouldn't be a godawful defensive team.

And Gilbert is one of the five clutchest players in the league. Baron is not good in the clutch. Both of their ideas of "leadership" is taking the game into his own hands. The difference is that it works for Gilbert


I'll drop the rebounding argument, but Baron is a better defensive player, even counting out steals. And Baron is good in the clutch, although Gilbert is better in that area.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:53 pm
O.G. Broe wrote:I was at the game & called in to the Bruce show & said SJax frustration was probally a carryover from being called for 5 fouls in the 4th quarter of the Jazz game, also I said that yea SJax blew his top some but so did you Damon Bruce which got a pause & then a laugh from the jerk off, he then replied I am not fighting for the playoffs :bday:


yeah, I heard you! Good point you made. D Bruce was fake outraged. I mean, he said it was the biggest win of the year, Baron had his best game of the year, 4 warriors scored at least 22 points, and he spends the time utterly bagging on SJAX. He's a fake, but an entertaining one. I doubt he got nearly that riled when Dungleavy tore off his Jersey and had to be escorted out after 2 ts...There is a great article on the whole thing in the NY Times. I'll post it in the news article section.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:25 pm
TMC wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.


Couldn't have said it better. =D>



It was well said but I believe Baron is a better fit for the team, mostly because he passes better but that is only because he has more talent to pass to. On the Wiz, Baron couldn't get them to 30 wins
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:03 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
JayPat wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:- Baron Davis unquestionably outplayed Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert's crazy ass, in equal time, netted 5 less points, 5 less rebounds, 2 less assists, and shot 20% worse from the field than Baron. Health aside, NOBODY should ever question who the better player is between those two. Crunch time was the best example: Gilbert tried to pick his team up by carrying them on his own, whereas Baron picked his team up by getting everyone into it (and sustaining the team's energy). Clearly, we're in better hands with Baron.

I disagree. This was Baron's best game of the season and just an average game for Arenas.

You don't think that Baron, in equal minutes, is the better player?

Arenas might be the better scorer (by a hair, thanks to his 3-point range), but Baron is a much better team general, playmaker, tempo-changer, and defender. All of the reasons that Arenas is considered "better" than Baron all have to do with issues that don't relate to their games (ie, Baron's injury prone, Baron can't play as many minutes).

I believe, in equal time, Baron Davis is the better player. Without question.

Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.


I mostly agree, especially since Arenas is my favorite player. But, Baron is a better rebounder (equal rebounding stat but Baron gets 5 less minutes a game), and a better stealer (same reason)/defender. Also, Arenas is a below-average passing PG, while Baron is an above-average scoring PG and an excellent passing PG.

Even if Gilbert has an edge on leading the team, it's not by much and Baron is a good leader in my opinion.

the rebounding difference is like .05 boards per 48 minutes. It is equal.

Steals are slightly ahead for Baron, but steals are not the only indicator of defense, or the warriors wouldn't be a godawful defensive team.

And Gilbert is one of the five clutchest players in the league. Baron is not good in the clutch. Both of their ideas of "leadership" is taking the game into his own hands. The difference is that it works for Gilbert

You raise a lot of good points, but I heavily disagree with the statement about Baron being a 'choker'. Baron Davis has hit a ton of clutch shots for the Warriors since coming here. He wants the ball in his hands when the game's on the line. Is that a bad thing? Especially because, for the most part, he makes them count.

And the whole idea about Baron having a better team than Gilbert is totally debatable. After the Indy trade? Okay, sure. But I dunno about before it. And when Baron has his lineup fully healthy, how often do they win?

I would just much rather have a playmaker running my team, rather than a shoot-first PG. Gilbert is an amazing scorer, no argument there. But scoring doesn't win championships. When was the last time Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant (sans Shaq), Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, or any other league-leading scorer guard powerful enough to pull his team to an NBA Championship? I count Michael Jordan... and, beyond him, it gets foggy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:09 pm
Uh........ Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal were nba scoring leaders and they have won some, um, 9 championships between them! :wink:

When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:16 am
migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:


Jason Kidd led his Nets to the finals twice. It was a loaded team (loaded... for the east, of course), with Jefferson, K-Mart, Kittles... but Kidd was the motor of that team.

I don't think it matters much the way you do it, as both ways are perfectly valid to win a ton of games. The key here are injuries. When Baron is healthy, there can be an argument about who's better for the team... but if he misses lots of games per season, it's pretty clear who should be the pick.

We're talking about two great players, and, as such, they can change games by themselves. That means that the best one is the one that plays more. Period.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:17 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:


Jason Kidd led his Nets to the finals twice. It was a loaded team (loaded... for the east, of course), with Jefferson, K-Mart, Kittles... but Kidd was the motor of that team.



I did say championship :wink:

Kidd did great in his first two seasons in the Nets but the rest of his career has been luckluster, as he has been unable to get a team far in the playoffs
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:33 am
migya wrote:I did say championship :wink:


It's almost the same. I mean, by that rule, KG is a fraud. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:18 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:I did say championship :wink:


It's almost the same. I mean, by that rule, KG is a fraud. :wink:



In the case of Garnett, it is obvious he never had enough good players around him. The thing is that over the last 20 years, since Magic and Isiah Thomas, the championship teamshave generally had the leading scorer and most dominant player in the nba. You look at Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan and they were all at or near the top when they won championships
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:40 pm
migya wrote:Uh........ Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal were nba scoring leaders and they have won some, um, 9 championships between them! :wink:

Read it again.

32 wrote:When was the last time Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant (sans Shaq), Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, or any other league-leading scorer guard powerful enough to pull his team to an NBA Championship? I count Michael Jordan... and, beyond him, it gets foggy.

Shaquille O'Neal is far from a guard and I acknowledged the exception (Jordan). Other than that, name me a guard who led the league in scoring and won his team a ring. You can't. That's why players like Iverson and Arenas are doomed to a career of playoff action without any real pay-off. Prove me wrong.

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:

Chauncey Billips won the Finals MVP for Detroit and many considered him to be their best player. I know you're going to be a smart ass and say Ben or Rasheed Wallace was better than him, but I'm just telling you the facts. Billips (though he is a decent scorer) is a distributer whose passing skills was the catalyst to his team's offense, during a time when most teams were more concerned with their defense.

Magic Johnson is another example. So's Isiah Thomas (who averaged 9 dimes on his career; don't be a smart ass and act like he was a league-leading scorer). In fact, if you look at every guard whose been Finals MVP (Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billips, ect), you'll see that they can all distribute the ball well.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:12 pm
32 wrote:
migya wrote:Uh........ Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal were nba scoring leaders and they have won some, um, 9 championships between them! :wink:

Read it again.

32 wrote:When was the last time Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant (sans Shaq), Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, or any other league-leading scorer guard powerful enough to pull his team to an NBA Championship? I count Michael Jordan... and, beyond him, it gets foggy.

Shaquille O'Neal is far from a guard and I acknowledged the exception (Jordan). Other than that, name me a guard who led the league in scoring and won his team a ring. You can't. That's why players like Iverson and Arenas are doomed to a career of playoff action without any real pay-off. Prove me wrong.


Pardon me, I didn't fully read what you had wrote, I just read "league leading scorer"


32 wrote:
migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:

Chauncey Billips won the Finals MVP for Detroit and many considered him to be their best player. I know you're going to be a smart ass and say Ben or Rasheed Wallace was better than him, but I'm just telling you the facts. Billips (though he is a decent scorer) is a distributer whose passing skills was the catalyst to his team's offense, during a time when most teams were more concerned with their defense.


All five Pistons starters could be seen as equal contributors with noone being the best player. I woud say Hamilton is the best of them all but they all contributed equally


32 wrote:Magic Johnson is another example. So's Isiah Thomas (who averaged 9 dimes on his career; don't be a smart ass and act like he was a league-leading scorer). In fact, if you look at every guard whose been Finals MVP (Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billips, ect), you'll see that they can all distribute the ball well.


migya wrote:In the case of Garnett, it is obvious he never had enough good players around him. The thing is that over the last 20 years, since Magic and Isiah Thomas, the championship teamshave generally had the leading scorer and most dominant player in the nba. You look at Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan and they were all at or near the top when they won championships


You didn't read my last quote stating that Magic and Isiah were the last star PGs to lead their teams to championships, some 20 years ago
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:24 pm
migya wrote:
32 wrote:
migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship? :wink:

Chauncey Billips won the Finals MVP for Detroit and many considered him to be their best player. I know you're going to be a smart ass and say Ben or Rasheed Wallace was better than him, but I'm just telling you the facts. Billips (though he is a decent scorer) is a distributer whose passing skills was the catalyst to his team's offense, during a time when most teams were more concerned with their defense.


All five Pistons starters could be seen as equal contributors with noone being the best player. I woud say Hamilton is the best of them all but they all contributed equally

Well, the league named Chauncey Billips the Finals MVP... and I'm pretty sure he was the least replaceable out of all the starters (either him or Ben Wallace). Doesn't really matter; its just one example.

migya wrote:
32 wrote:Magic Johnson is another example. So's Isiah Thomas (who averaged 9 dimes on his career; don't be a smart ass and act like he was a league-leading scorer). In fact, if you look at every guard whose been Finals MVP (Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billips, ect), you'll see that they can all distribute the ball well.


migya wrote:In the case of Garnett, it is obvious he never had enough good players around him. The thing is that over the last 20 years, since Magic and Isiah Thomas, the championship teamshave generally had the leading scorer and most dominant player in the nba. You look at Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan and they were all at or near the top when they won championships


You didn't read my last quote stating that Magic and Isiah were the last star PGs to lead their teams to championships, some 20 years ago

Excuse me. I thought we were talking about guards, which was my whole point. Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan are all 7-feet tall. They all contribute in rebounds and blocked shots, combined with their scoring. Players like Iverson and Arenas have only one skill at a league-leading level, and that's scoring. As I stated earlier, league-leading-scoring guards don't win championships. Michael Jordan is the clearest exception, but (even then) Michael was also a playmaker.
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