tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

JayPat wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

32 wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

32 wrote:- Baron Davis unquestionably outplayed Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert's crazy ass, in equal time, netted 5 less points, 5 less rebounds, 2 less assists, and shot 20% worse from the field than Baron. Health aside, NOBODY should ever question who the better player is between those two. Crunch time was the best example: Gilbert tried to pick his team up by carrying them on his own, whereas Baron picked his team up by getting everyone into it (and sustaining the team's energy). Clearly, we're in better hands with Baron.

I disagree. This was Baron's best game of the season and just an average game for Arenas.

You don't think that Baron, in equal minutes, is the better player?

Arenas might be the better scorer (by a hair, thanks to his 3-point range), but Baron is a much better team general, playmaker, tempo-changer, and defender. All of the reasons that Arenas is considered "better" than Baron all have to do with issues that don't relate to their games (ie, Baron's injury prone, Baron can't play as many minutes).

I believe, in equal time, Baron Davis is the better player. Without question.

Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.

I mostly agree, especially since Arenas is my favorite player. But, Baron is a better rebounder (equal rebounding stat but Baron gets 5 less minutes a game), and a better stealer (same reason)/defender. Also, Arenas is a below-average passing PG, while Baron is an above-average scoring PG and an excellent passing PG.

Even if Gilbert has an edge on leading the team, it's not by much and Baron is a good leader in my opinion.

the rebounding difference is like .05 boards per 48 minutes. It is equal.

Steals are slightly ahead for Baron, but steals are not the only indicator of defense, or the warriors wouldn't be a godawful defensive team.

And Gilbert is one of the five clutchest players in the league. Baron is not good in the clutch. Both of their ideas of "leadership" is taking the game into his own hands. The difference is that it works for Gilbert

O.G. Broe wrote:I was at the game & called in to the Bruce show & said SJax frustration was probally a carryover from being called for 5 fouls in the 4th quarter of the Jazz game, also I said that yea SJax blew his top some but so did you Damon Bruce which got a pause & then a laugh from the jerk off, he then replied I am not fighting for the playoffs

TMC wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.

Couldn't have said it better.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

JayPat wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

32 wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

32 wrote:- Baron Davis unquestionably outplayed Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert's crazy ass, in equal time, netted 5 less points, 5 less rebounds, 2 less assists, and shot 20% worse from the field than Baron. Health aside, NOBODY should ever question who the better player is between those two. Crunch time was the best example: Gilbert tried to pick his team up by carrying them on his own, whereas Baron picked his team up by getting everyone into it (and sustaining the team's energy). Clearly, we're in better hands with Baron.

I disagree. This was Baron's best game of the season and just an average game for Arenas.

You don't think that Baron, in equal minutes, is the better player?

Arenas might be the better scorer (by a hair, thanks to his 3-point range), but Baron is a much better team general, playmaker, tempo-changer, and defender. All of the reasons that Arenas is considered "better" than Baron all have to do with issues that don't relate to their games (ie, Baron's injury prone, Baron can't play as many minutes).

I believe, in equal time, Baron Davis is the better player. Without question.

Well, first of all, if it's more than a season or two than being injury prone is part of how good a player you are.

Second, Gilbert is a leader, and Baron isn't. That's the biggest difference. Baron chooses his spots to be a leader, whereas Gilbert tries to will his team to win every game.

Gilbert Arenas is a FAR BETTER SCORER. It isn't even close. Gilbert is better at everything that is scoring related.

By the same vein, Baron is a far better passer. I won't try to debate that.

But that is where Baron's advantages end. They're equal rebounders. I don't think either of them are very good or very bad defenders. Their turnovers and fouls this year are the same, more or less, per minute.

Baron has a far better supporting cast than Gilbert's and wins less games, but a lot of that is due to injury and being in the west, so that is cancelled out.

It basically depends on what you want for your team. Gilbert is reliable and one of the best scorers in the league and one of the most clutch players in the league. Baron is unreliable and a choker. Baron is one of the best passers in the league. Gilbert is a ballhog.

Overall, I go with Arenas. When fully healthy, they're pretty damned even the first 46 minutes of the game, but Arenas is far more clutch and, ironically, passes it more in the clutch than baron does.

I mostly agree, especially since Arenas is my favorite player. But, Baron is a better rebounder (equal rebounding stat but Baron gets 5 less minutes a game), and a better stealer (same reason)/defender. Also, Arenas is a below-average passing PG, while Baron is an above-average scoring PG and an excellent passing PG.

Even if Gilbert has an edge on leading the team, it's not by much and Baron is a good leader in my opinion.

the rebounding difference is like .05 boards per 48 minutes. It is equal.

Steals are slightly ahead for Baron, but steals are not the only indicator of defense, or the warriors wouldn't be a godawful defensive team.

And Gilbert is one of the five clutchest players in the league. Baron is not good in the clutch. Both of their ideas of "leadership" is taking the game into his own hands. The difference is that it works for Gilbert

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship?

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship?

Jason Kidd led his Nets to the finals twice. It was a loaded team (loaded... for the east, of course), with Jefferson, K-Mart, Kittles... but Kidd was the motor of that team.

migya wrote:I did say championship

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:I did say championship

It's almost the same. I mean, by that rule, KG is a fraud.

migya wrote:Uh........ Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal were nba scoring leaders and they have won some, um, 9 championships between them!

32 wrote:When was the last time Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant (sans Shaq), Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, or any other league-leading scorer guard powerful enough to pull his team to an NBA Championship? I count Michael Jordan... and, beyond him, it gets foggy.

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship?

32 wrote:

migya wrote:Uh........ Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal were nba scoring leaders and they have won some, um, 9 championships between them!

Read it again.

32 wrote:When was the last time Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant (sans Shaq), Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, or any other league-leading scorer guard powerful enough to pull his team to an NBA Championship? I count Michael Jordan... and, beyond him, it gets foggy.

Shaquille O'Neal is far from a guard and I acknowledged the exception (Jordan). Other than that, name me a guard who led the league in scoring and won his team a ring. You can't. That's why players like Iverson and Arenas are doomed to a career of playoff action without any real pay-off. Prove me wrong.

32 wrote:

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship?

Chauncey Billips won the Finals MVP for Detroit and many considered him to be their best player. I know you're going to be a smart ass and say Ben or Rasheed Wallace was better than him, but I'm just telling you the facts. Billips (though he is a decent scorer) is a distributer whose passing skills was the catalyst to his team's offense, during a time when most teams were more concerned with their defense.

32 wrote:Magic Johnson is another example. So's Isiah Thomas (who averaged 9 dimes on his career; don't be a smart ass and act like he was a league-leading scorer). In fact, if you look at every guard whose been Finals MVP (Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billips, ect), you'll see that they can all distribute the ball well.

migya wrote:In the case of Garnett, it is obvious he never had enough good players around him. The thing is that over the last 20 years, since Magic and Isiah Thomas, the championship teamshave generally had the leading scorer and most dominant player in the nba. You look at Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan and they were all at or near the top when they won championships

migya wrote:

32 wrote:

migya wrote:When was the last time a PG that was considered the best player in his team (and considered more of a distributor, not that Baron is) lead his team to a championship?

Chauncey Billips won the Finals MVP for Detroit and many considered him to be their best player. I know you're going to be a smart ass and say Ben or Rasheed Wallace was better than him, but I'm just telling you the facts. Billips (though he is a decent scorer) is a distributer whose passing skills was the catalyst to his team's offense, during a time when most teams were more concerned with their defense.

All five Pistons starters could be seen as equal contributors with noone being the best player. I woud say Hamilton is the best of them all but they all contributed equally

migya wrote:

32 wrote:Magic Johnson is another example. So's Isiah Thomas (who averaged 9 dimes on his career; don't be a smart ass and act like he was a league-leading scorer). In fact, if you look at every guard whose been Finals MVP (Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billips, ect), you'll see that they can all distribute the ball well.

migya wrote:In the case of Garnett, it is obvious he never had enough good players around him. The thing is that over the last 20 years, since Magic and Isiah Thomas, the championship teamshave generally had the leading scorer and most dominant player in the nba. You look at Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan and they were all at or near the top when they won championships

You didn't read my last quote stating that Magic and Isiah were the last star PGs to lead their teams to championships, some 20 years ago