Monta Ellis is Not a Point Guard

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:57 pm
ReginaldLewis wrote:
tkono wrote:If you guys want to compare championship teams over the past decade, they were mainly:

The First bulls team with the triangle

1.) Solid
2.) Superstar/HOF/arguably the best player ever?
3.) HOF draggin off of Jordans coattails
4.) Solid
5.) Solid

or in the lakers mold

1.) Solid
2.) Superstar (HOF?)
3.) Some throw in
4.) Some throw in (Madsen)
5.) SUperstar/HOF

or maybe the rockets

1.) Solid
2.) Solid
3.) Solid
4.) Superstar/HOF (was drexler SF or PF? or was he SG?)
5.) SUperstar?HOF


Point is, there hasn't been a team yet who won the championship with a me first point guard. As far as im concerned right now, I don't care as long as we get into the playoffs. Then we can start worrying about the petty stuff. As long as the PG plays within the flow of the offense and can lead the team, we can have JRich develop into a monster or have JRich and Biedrins develop into monsters and have them carry the team. Thats why I want monta to develop into a Kidd type or Nash type.


You still will not acknowledge the Detroit Pistons. Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars were the stara od the team, with Thomas being a "me first" point guard. Could you please acknowlege that?

PS: I concsider Thomas a superstar and Dumars a little bit more than just solid.


I was considering the 90s and don't think the pistons won any championships in the 90s. If you talk about 80s then ya. But you had Rodman, Laimbeer, and Dumars which were players that could help out Thomas. If Thomas missed, Rodman would snatch up the board. The bulls beat them with Jordan and Pippen and some good players. Rodman wasn't quite a star (or quite into dresses) at the time and Laimbeer as well. That pistons team was a bruising, punishing team in which by todays standards would either get T'ed up hell or have half the starting lineup ejected before the 1 half was done.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:07 pm
sorry tk, I missed that you mentioned the past decade. You were right. Me and my old school memories. :)

PS: I still don'r Monta to tuen into John Stockton. I'm sure if Stockton could do what Monta could do he would have been a "me first" point guard too. The Warriors just need better players to help Monta out.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:27 pm
ReginaldLewis wrote:sorry tk, I missed that you mentioned the past decade. You were right. Me and my old school memories. :)

PS: I still don'r Monta to tuen into John Stockton. I'm sure if Stockton could do what Monta could do he would have been a "me first" point guard too. The Warriors just need better players to help Monta out.


I would say that Monta is becoming more like KJ of the Suns. He was skinny, fast, had a great pullup shot and could kill anyone getting to the rim. Never won a championship, but was a good player on a good team for a long time with playoffs every year. I'd be ok with that for awhile.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:32 pm
ReginaldLewis wrote:
32 wrote:
coltraning wrote:
32 wrote:I hope to God you're wrong about that Iverson, Arenas comparison... shoot-first, shoot-second, pass-3rd-only-to-beef-up-assist-stats PG's never take their teams anywhere. I can't name ONE, single time in recent memory when a PG like that won the NBA finals. :oops:

I seriously hopes Baron tutors him to be more like himself, than an Iverson or Arenas. Baron's a better pure playmaker than either of those guys.


actually, Wade was completely a shoot first guard, and certainly was as much of a PG on the Heat as Arenas and Iverson were, and he got the ring. And Iverson took a woefully overmatched team to the finals in 2001...

Wade was definately not a PG in last year's series. He brought the ball up as often as Harrington brings it up for us. Wade is an especially talented SG because he gets a lot of assists for a 2, but if he were a PG, they wouldn't have made it to the Finals. Wade's contributions were key in the Heat's championship, but he was most definately never a PG for them (at least, not for more than 1 or 2 minutes at a time).

Iverson never got a ring. He just proves my point. Arenas and AI get their stats, but they'll never win a ring so long as they're the focal point of their team's offensive system. Do-it-all-PG's don't work when they're shoot-first. Magic was a do-it-all-PG, but he always looked to pass before looking for his own shot (which is what made him great).


Again 32, how about Isiah Thomas? He won a couple of championships. Who was the point guards on the great Chicago team. The answer is that they did not really have a point guard who brought up the ball and distribute. Pippen and Jordan were the distributors on those teams. Armstrong and Paxon were spot up shooters. I don't think the classic point guards are as important as you think. How many titles have John Stockton :?:

Isiah Thomas, Isiah Thomas...

Oh, you mean the guy averaged 19 and 9 on his career? :roll:

When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.

PS: Using John Stockton is a cheap (read: invalid) example. Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and a host of other NBA HOF's (future or present) were robbed of their rings throughout the Jordan Era. Hell, if Michael NEVER retired, even Hakeem would be without a ring. Best believe Stockton and Malone would have 2 rings, had Michael Jordan stayed in retirement. There's no arguing that.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:10 pm
and we all remember how BJ worked out when he got traded to the warriors.....
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:28 pm
tkono wrote:and we all remember how BJ worked out when he got traded to the warriors.....


BJ, didn't he sing that song "Rain Drops Keep Falling On My Head"?
Or BJ sounds like a happy ending to a good date. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!).

Do you remember when the coach started him in front of Tim Hardeway? That was the start of the Warriors free-fall.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:37 pm
ReginaldLewis wrote:
tkono wrote:and we all remember how BJ worked out when he got traded to the warriors.....


BJ, didn't he sing that song "Rain Drops Keep Falling On My Head"?
Or BJ sounds like a happy ending to a good date. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!).

Do you remember when the coach started him in front of Tim Hardeway? That was the start of the Warriors free-fall.


Wasn't that the twardleman era?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:26 pm
tkono wrote:
ReginaldLewis wrote:
tkono wrote:and we all remember how BJ worked out when he got traded to the warriors.....


BJ, didn't he sing that song "Rain Drops Keep Falling On My Head"?
Or BJ sounds like a happy ending to a good date. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!).

Do you remember when the coach started him in front of Tim Hardeway? That was the start of the Warriors free-fall.


Wasn't that the twardleman era?


I'm sure you're right.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:03 pm
Dude the Pistons were:

1. Good
2. Good
3. Solid
4. Solid
5. Very good at role; not otherwise.

They won cause they had a player to do everything. They had a scorer, distributer, rebounder, etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:37 pm
32 wrote:
ReginaldLewis wrote:Again 32, how about Isiah Thomas? He won a couple of championships. Who was the point guards on the great Chicago team. The answer is that they did not really have a point guard who brought up the ball and distribute. Pippen and Jordan were the distributors on those teams. Armstrong and Paxon were spot up shooters. I don't think the classic point guards are as important as you think. How many titles have John Stockton :?:

Isiah Thomas, Isiah Thomas...

Oh, you mean the guy averaged 19 and 9 on his career? :roll:

When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.

PS: Using John Stockton is a cheap (read: invalid) example. Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and a host of other NBA HOF's (future or present) were robbed of their rings throughout the Jordan Era. Hell, if Michael NEVER retired, even Hakeem would be without a ring. Best believe Stockton and Malone would have 2 rings, had Michael Jordan stayed in retirement. There's no arguing that.

... you gonna answer that, Reggie, or should I take it as a victory?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:49 pm
32 wrote:When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.

jordan
archibald
west
lebron
oscar
barry
iverson

Well, these are the seven players in NBA history to average 30 and 6. All five retired ones have won championships.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:30 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.

jordan
archibald
west
lebron
oscar
barry
iverson

Well, these are the seven players in NBA history to average 30 and 6. All five retired ones have won championships.


thanks pest.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:53 am
32 wrote:Isiah Thomas, Isiah Thomas...

Oh, you mean the guy averaged 19 and 9 on his career? :roll:


Come on, it's not only about numbers. Those are Marbury's numbers and we all agree he's a loser (when it comes to playoff success).

Isiah was a me-first player and it's a me-first coach and GM. One of the more selfish players to ever play the game (and that's the reason why he was succesful).


32 wrote:When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.


Iverson... just three games away from a ring. I'd say that's pretty close.

32 wrote:PS: Using John Stockton is a cheap (read: invalid) example. Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and a host of other NBA HOF's (future or present) were robbed of their rings throughout the Jordan Era. Hell, if Michael NEVER retired, even Hakeem would be without a ring. Best believe Stockton and Malone would have 2 rings, had Michael Jordan stayed in retirement. There's no arguing that.


So using Stockton is not valid because Jordan played in that era... and Iverson, who had to deal with Shaq and Kobe (who, together, can be considered as dominant, if not more, as Jordan and Pippen), is a valid example of a failure?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:22 am
TMC wrote:
tkono wrote:If you guys want to compare championship teams over the past decade, they were mainly:

The First bulls team with the triangle

1.) Solid
2.) Superstar/HOF/arguably the best player ever?
3.) HOF draggin off of Jordans coattails
4.) Solid
5.) Solid

or in the lakers mold

1.) Solid
2.) Superstar (HOF?)
3.) Some throw in
4.) Some throw in (Madsen)
5.) SUperstar/HOF

or maybe the rockets

1.) Solid
2.) Solid
3.) Solid
4.) Superstar/HOF (was drexler SF or PF? or was he SG?)
5.) SUperstar?HOF


If anything, all that proves that any championship team needs two superstars, no matter the position.

btw, Drexler played mostly SG. If I'm not wrong, Horry played SF for that Rockets team...

A couple more:

Spurs:
1.) Solid
2.) Solid
3.) Solid
4.) Superstar/HOF
5.) SUperstar?HOF (Robinson)

Pistons: (Weirdest champions ever... I don't think any of those players can be called a superstar)
1.) Solid
2.) Solid
3.) Solid
4.) Solid
5.) Solid



You said it right TMC, most championship teams had two superstars and good role players! The Nets lost to the Lakers with as the only superstar against Kobe and Shaq being two superstars and IVERSON took a garbage 76ers team to the finals and lost to the Lakers with superstars Kobe and Shaq and Fishdog having a big series!

Drexler did play SG for the Rockets with Ellie being SF and Horry moving to PF from the previous season where the Rockets won the championship with Horry SF and Thorpe PF.

David Robinson was a superstar but that first Spurs championship season he was more of a great role player only. The Pistons championship team from a three seasons ago was strange that there was no superstar but their backcourt can play at the star level sometimes, as can Rasheed and BWallace was so unique in what he did
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migya make the ring fall on ya
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:29 am
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
32 wrote:When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.

jordan
archibald
west
lebron
oscar
barry
iverson

Well, these are the seven players in NBA history to average 30 and 6. All five retired ones have won championships.



TMC wrote:
32 wrote:When was the last time a PG who averaged 30 and 6 was anywhere NEAR a ring...? Answer me that.


Iverson... just three games away from a ring. I'd say that's pretty close.




TMC wrote:
32 wrote:PS: Using John Stockton is a cheap (read: invalid) example. Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and a host of other NBA HOF's (future or present) were robbed of their rings throughout the Jordan Era. Hell, if Michael NEVER retired, even Hakeem would be without a ring. Best believe Stockton and Malone would have 2 rings, had Michael Jordan stayed in retirement. There's no arguing that.



So using Stockton is not valid because Jordan played in that era... and Iverson, who had to deal with Shaq and Kobe (who, together, can be considered as dominant, if not more, as Jordan and Pippen), is a valid example of a failure?



:D

Well said you two!


and

#32 - You going to answer that or just give them the victory :roll:

Lay off the low remarks man, even if you are right, though you aren't on this one :wink:



Iverson is a great player that has been on shiit teams! This Nuggets team really is not that great and outside of Iverson, Carmelo and Camby, the Nuggets have noone that really does much good. JR Smith has to continue to make threes or he is back to where he was in the Hornets, as a crap player. Trading Boykins was stupid and he could be the third or fourth scorer they need right now! A decent PF would be nice to.
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