Ike; Bad on defense?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:11 am
Now I know that no individual stat can really measure defense, but riddle me this. Why does ike have the least points scored on him per 100 possessions of any regular except Barnes and Foyle if he's so attrocious at defense? Monta Ellis allowed 113.5 points per 100 possesions, or the 12th worst in the league, and yet people are clamouring to see him play.

Since Ike is unstoppable on offense, and clearly not that bad on defense, what's the problem?

(and yes I know that the place Ike kills us is help defense, not man to man, but it's just food for thought)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:13 am
#1, You answered your own question regarding the "help defense" thing.

#2, How to you keep that sort of stat? What's the equation?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:37 am
You said it Pest, Diogu is not bad on defense, just help defense! He gets his share of blocks, 2nd to Biedrins really and has the makings of a very good man to man defender.

There is nothing wrong with Diogu, he is probably already the most talented player on the team
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:47 am
#32 wrote:#1, You answered your own question regarding the "help defense" thing.


And as this team should be built around help defense because we don't really have good individual defenders... yeah, the question kind of answers itself.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:22 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Now I know that no individual stat can really measure defense, but riddle me this. Why does ike have the least points scored on him per 100 possessions of any regular except Barnes and Foyle if he's so attrocious at defense? Monta Ellis allowed 113.5 points per 100 possesions, or the 12th worst in the league, and yet people are clamouring to see him play.

Since Ike is unstoppable on offense, and clearly not that bad on defense, what's the problem?

(and yes I know that the place Ike kills us is help defense, not man to man, but it's just food for thought)


ike is unstoppable on offense? unstoppable meaning what?

he's mechanical and slow, doesn't have much of a touch, can't score on lanky post men, can't score when there's body contact, and you call him unstoppable?

wow...

i'm not quite sure what everyone's infatuation with ike is... other than the detroit game last year, he's look pretty ordinary to me...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:36 pm
I think I is a good offensive player, however, he tends to rucsh when he is in the came because he knows he's not going to get significant minutes. I have seen ike with good and and a good outside shot. He is the best free-throw shooter on the team. he has a lot of inside moves, however, he is short for a power forward.

I think Ike would be better as a starter. I would like to see him start with Barnes and Biedrins up front. Ehat have we got to lose.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:51 pm
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:01 pm
But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.

What I mean by unstoppable is that if you gave him minutes he'd average 20+ ppg on 55% shooting. He would hurt our team, but that doesn't change that when he gets the ball he scores. He shoots 63.4% when he gets the ball in close and also gets fouled a whopping 22% of the time; way more than any other warrior and more than foul drawer extrordanaires such as Wade, Lebron, KG, Randolph, or Duncan (or any other player I've checked thus far). That's what I call unstoppable. For all his shortcomings, he is an unstoppable offensive player
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:11 pm
That's right.

But seeing as he doesn't know the playbook, that means he sets up down-low every possession. Teams will catch onto him and start double-teaming him (which will result in TO's, as they almost always do). Ike is unstoppable in single-man coverage, but double-teams would kill him... and they can't run an offensive play outside of the guy, because he has no idea where to be. Golden State, in a sense, would be trapped in a pure-Diogu offensive scheme. One player is not Nelson's style. If Ike could learn where to be without the ball, he'd be in the game.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:59 pm
#32 wrote:...One player is not Nelson's style. If Ike could learn where to be without the ball, he'd be in the game.


Agreed!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:53 pm
aletha33 wrote:ike is unstoppable on offense? unstoppable meaning what?

he's mechanical and slow, doesn't have much of a touch, can't score on lanky post men, can't score when there's body contact, and you call him unstoppable?

wow...

i'm not quite sure what everyone's infatuation with ike is... other than the detroit game last year, he's look pretty ordinary to me...



You must not have seen any games where Diogu plays! The guy scores most of the time he gets the ball, has post moves unlike many in the nba and shoots his freethrows very well, something the rest of the team doesn't!

Diogu performs well EVERYTIME he plays, scoring almost a point a minute and getting decent rebounding and blocking numbers! He would avaerage about 20pts, 8-10rebs and 1-2 blks if he got over 30mins
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:32 pm
migya wrote:
aletha33 wrote:ike is unstoppable on offense? unstoppable meaning what?

he's mechanical and slow, doesn't have much of a touch, can't score on lanky post men, can't score when there's body contact, and you call him unstoppable?

wow...

i'm not quite sure what everyone's infatuation with ike is... other than the detroit game last year, he's look pretty ordinary to me...



You must not have seen any games where Diogu plays! The guy scores most of the time he gets the ball, has post moves unlike many in the nba and shoots his freethrows very well, something the rest of the team doesn't!

Diogu performs well EVERYTIME he plays, scoring almost a point a minute and getting decent rebounding and blocking numbers! He would avaerage about 20pts, 8-10rebs and 1-2 blks if he got over 30mins


oh believe me i've seen ALL his games...

are you serious?? can you really make that statement that ike performs well EVERYTIME?? holy sh*t... i'm in awe.

he gets garbage time and scores vs. 2nd & 3rd stringers...

if he were playing well EVERYTIME, Nelson would be playing him...

he simply ain't got it now...he's weak.

sorry, that's the fact.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:33 pm
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.


let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:41 pm
aletha33 wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.


let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...


Whom would you rather see from this Warrior roster playing power forward than Ike?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:51 pm
aletha33 wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.


let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

not sure I am watching the same dude you are, Aletha. Ike either scores and/or gets to the line practically every time he is bodied inside, and shoots 54%, 63% from inside and he is bodied on about 4 out of every five shots he takes. He does need to learn how to pass better out of the double team and not force so much, but the dude has a higher scoring percentage per touch than anyone else on the team...
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