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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:29 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
When you say "better shooting PG and PF", I'm not sure what you mean. Gary Payton, Cousy (.38 CAREER 3PT shooter), Bosh, Charles Barkeley all not only can shoot the 3, but can be serious threats and give defense a headache if too many shooters are out on the floor.

Bosh is 26% from the 3pt line with 56 career attempts coming into tonight. I wouldn't say he can shoot. Payton is not a shooter, shooting 32% from the 3pt line for his career. Cousy was not at all a shooter, shooting .375 from the FIELD for his career (not the three, as you stated. there were no threes back then). Barkley is a 26% three point shooter. All the guys who you said were three point threats had about the same three point prowess as dunleavy.


OK I take back what I said about being three point threats... but Payton is a great 3pt shooter and 32% is a good career average...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/cousy_summary.html
It says he has a .376 3PT% here...

I'll give up on Bosh/Barkeley being 3PT threats, but why would you want your big man out on the perimeter? They're better down low.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:34 pm
John Patrick wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
When you say "better shooting PG and PF", I'm not sure what you mean. Gary Payton, Cousy (.38 CAREER 3PT shooter), Bosh, Charles Barkeley all not only can shoot the 3, but can be serious threats and give defense a headache if too many shooters are out on the floor.

Bosh is 26% from the 3pt line with 56 career attempts coming into tonight. I wouldn't say he can shoot. Payton is not a shooter, shooting 32% from the 3pt line for his career. Cousy was not at all a shooter, shooting .375 from the FIELD for his career (not the three, as you stated. there were no threes back then). Barkley is a 26% three point shooter. All the guys who you said were three point threats had about the same three point prowess as dunleavy.


OK I take back what I said about being three point threats... but Payton is a great 3pt shooter and 32% is a good career average...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/cousy_summary.html
It says he has a .376 3PT% here...

I'll give up on Bosh/Barkeley being 3PT threats, but why would you want your big man out on the perimeter? They're better down low.

32% is not great and I wouldn't consider it good. It's incredibly pedestrian, not even getting you 1 pps. If you watch payton play you'll see he's hindered by his range more than almost any PG in the league

The cousy summary is incorrect. They didn't tally three pointers until over 15 years after cousy retired

You don't want your big man out on the perimeter but you want SOMEBODY out on the perimeter to make the defense work.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:45 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
John Patrick wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
When you say "better shooting PG and PF", I'm not sure what you mean. Gary Payton, Cousy (.38 CAREER 3PT shooter), Bosh, Charles Barkeley all not only can shoot the 3, but can be serious threats and give defense a headache if too many shooters are out on the floor.

Bosh is 26% from the 3pt line with 56 career attempts coming into tonight. I wouldn't say he can shoot. Payton is not a shooter, shooting 32% from the 3pt line for his career. Cousy was not at all a shooter, shooting .375 from the FIELD for his career (not the three, as you stated. there were no threes back then). Barkley is a 26% three point shooter. All the guys who you said were three point threats had about the same three point prowess as dunleavy.


OK I take back what I said about being three point threats... but Payton is a great 3pt shooter and 32% is a good career average...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/cousy_summary.html
It says he has a .376 3PT% here...

I'll give up on Bosh/Barkeley being 3PT threats, but why would you want your big man out on the perimeter? They're better down low.

32% is not great and I wouldn't consider it good. It's incredibly pedestrian, not even getting you 1 pps. If you watch payton play you'll see he's hindered by his range more than almost any PG in the league

The cousy summary is incorrect. They didn't tally three pointers until over 15 years after cousy retired

You don't want your big man out on the perimeter but you want SOMEBODY out on the perimeter to make the defense work.


Mullin? Richmond? Gervin is an excellent shooter and Hal Greer is a good perimeter player. D Wilkins is another decent 3pt shooter (one season where he was excellent at around 39%). I have plenty of perimeter firepower.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:52 pm
John Patrick wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
John Patrick wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
When you say "better shooting PG and PF", I'm not sure what you mean. Gary Payton, Cousy (.38 CAREER 3PT shooter), Bosh, Charles Barkeley all not only can shoot the 3, but can be serious threats and give defense a headache if too many shooters are out on the floor.

Bosh is 26% from the 3pt line with 56 career attempts coming into tonight. I wouldn't say he can shoot. Payton is not a shooter, shooting 32% from the 3pt line for his career. Cousy was not at all a shooter, shooting .375 from the FIELD for his career (not the three, as you stated. there were no threes back then). Barkley is a 26% three point shooter. All the guys who you said were three point threats had about the same three point prowess as dunleavy.


OK I take back what I said about being three point threats... but Payton is a great 3pt shooter and 32% is a good career average...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/cousy_summary.html
It says he has a .376 3PT% here...

I'll give up on Bosh/Barkeley being 3PT threats, but why would you want your big man out on the perimeter? They're better down low.

32% is not great and I wouldn't consider it good. It's incredibly pedestrian, not even getting you 1 pps. If you watch payton play you'll see he's hindered by his range more than almost any PG in the league

The cousy summary is incorrect. They didn't tally three pointers until over 15 years after cousy retired

You don't want your big man out on the perimeter but you want SOMEBODY out on the perimeter to make the defense work.


Mullin? Richmond? Gervin is an excellent shooter and Hal Greer is a good perimeter player. D Wilkins is another decent 3pt shooter (one season where he was excellent at around 39%). I have plenty of perimeter firepower.

they're very good, I just think you needed a real bona fide lights out super shooter to capitalize on Wilt's inside presence
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:55 pm
Mullin is my bona fide lights out shooter. Maybe I should have taken Drazen Petrovic as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:23 pm
John, imagine if you paired Chamberlain with Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin (whom, you have) and Dirk Nowitski. All of those players were available at the time you took Charles Barkley. You ended up with Mullin. Nash and Miller went to other squads.

With Chamberlain holding down the inside, he would be almost immediately double-teammed. With that in mind... having 2 or 3 LIGHTS OUT shooters on the perimeter would have made your team unstoppable. Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond are both great... but teams can easily circulate their defenses and pick up an outside man. With Charles Barkley and Bob Cousy out there, your 3-point threat off Chamberlain-double-teams is drastically hindered.

Dominique Wilkins, Gary Payton, Hal Greer, and George Gervin are not LIGHTS OUT shooters; they're decent, but they'll miss a helluva lot more than a guy like Steve Kerr (who would have been a brilliant final pick for your team).

My critique is nothing personal; like I said, its just an opinion from the outside looking in. I thought Barkley was an awkward pick standing next to Wilt Chamberlain because Barkley is most effective in the paint... and no one can argue that Wilt would get most of the touches inside. Sir Charles isn't a bad pick (his stats speak for themselves), but for the sake of team chemistry, I feel you could have made a better selection bringing in a Kobe Bryant kind of megastar guard... or a lightsout (read: 40% on 3's) shooter.

Instead, you chose to pair one of the most dominant forces in NBA history with the undersized, Round Mound of Rebound. To me, that would be like picking Kobe Bryant... and then Allen Iverson. Its just a styles clash.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:29 pm
I sent an email to Marc Stein who hasn't responded. I questioned the some people on other forums and so far 4 have said Migya's team is the best, three have said mine, and three have said colt's. I intend to send more emails tomorrow when I have more time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:36 pm
ReginaldLewis wrote:the pestilence: Not enough scorers. Magic, Rodman, Mourning, Lucas, Artest, Robertson, and Dennis Johnson.

Yeah, I think we'll make due scoringwise with Karl Malone, Kobe, McAdoo, and Archibald and magic passing to them. We're below average, in terms of scoring, but I don't think it will hurt us too bad as every team has enough firepower.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:01 am
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:
ReginaldLewis wrote:P.S. Calvin was one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time. I think he still holds the consecutive free throw streak. he was 90% for 5 years in a row. Only Rick Barry was better at 90% for 7 years in a row.

Of course he kept the consecutive free throw streak because he stalked Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. the referee allowed him to throw the ball to mahmoud for the tying free throw and mahmoud missed it :mrgreen:



Didn't Micheal Williams of the TWolves break the record for consecutive freethrows some 10 years ago?!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:40 am
ReginaldLewis wrote:Migya: I rally like this team except for Grant Hill.



You mean Grant hill who for his first 6 seasons was top 5 player in nba, allstar every season, superstar from the start and arguably the most allround, multitalented player and best ever PointForward (so far)! If it wasn't for his injury, the Magic may have come close to winning a championship! Hill, in his prime, was one of the best players in nba history!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:44 am
Thunder wrote:Migya - Hakeem, Ewing; Maravich, Hardaway
I should have taken Hakeem 9th. TMC should have taken him 10th. Oops. Ewing too was a steal. Maravich and Hardaway were taken too early and aren't that great of PGs. Maravich is more of a slight reach but I thought Timmy was an 11th to 12th round pick, not a 7th.



Maravich is in nba at 50 as one of the best 50 ever for a reason and he could be seen as top 30 even. I have him at SG because that would have undoubtably been seen as a negative at PG, though he was a great passer. Tim Hardaway was originally named to be in the original dream team ahead of Stockton (Obviously because of his sensational 1991/92 season)! Obviously a great PG and he was always among the best PGs in his era every season! Same with KJ!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:03 am
I'm going to make two separate posts. One explaing the reasoning after some of my picks. The next one for the rest of the teams.

Thunder wrote:I should have taken Hakeem 9th. TMC should have taken him 10th


Yep. That's the only pick I regret. :banghead:

Thunder wrote:TMC - Frazier; Ellis
Frazier would start on most of our teams and yet he's TMC's backup. Ellis, I feel, was a waste of a pick. Carmelo, Peja, Glen Rice, and Schrempf are all in the free agent pool and have more utility than Ellis.


I don't think Ellis is a waste of a pick. What I wanted to get was not the best available player (which he wasn't, as all the players you mention are/were better) but a shooter. And he was a better shooter than those. It was the last pick, so I drafted to fit a needed more than the best player available.

I thought about picking Petrovic, but he didn't play enough. Just two good seasons for the Nets.

#32 wrote:
TMC - Red can make pretty much any squad better. And this team has solid pieces. The problem is... a couple key pieces look a bit lukewarm. Elgin Baylor could have easily been had 2 rounds later; and, still, he's not start-worthy for an "all-time" team. Earl Monroe is another iffy choice (out of all the available guards throughout time, you'd have him starting on your squad?). Oscar was a great choice... and Duncan's an excellent compliment to him, but the bench seems kind of stale, besides Robinson and Frazier. James Worthy and Elgin Baylor leave a lot to be desired at SF. Nate Thurmond's backup (Spencer Haywood) is a huge dropoff. And picking Arenas is like picking Chris Paul. Dale Ellis is a decent final pick, but I can't see this team climbing over migya, Pest, or colt's lineup.

Overall, it's a 7.5/10. Baylor and Monroe could have been better picks for the starting 5.


Well, I've already said that I should have picked Hakeem instead of Baylor (Baylor wasn't a terrible pick, and wouldn't have been available later, as Jaypat tried to draft him in the same round I did. Also, most contemporary players talk about Baylor like the kind of player Lebron MAY become. That's not too shabby for the second round, but I certainly could have done better)... but I don't agree with The Pearl or Arenas. I think they both were decent (not outstanding, but decent) picks for that round.

James Worthy?. Debatable. He was just great in big games. Much better than his numbers show (and his numbers are pretty good already).

btw, Thurmond's backups are Robinson and Mutombo, not Haywood. Haywood is the 11th man. Probably would play less than Dale Ellis in fact...

All in all, I think I did a decent job drafting (other than that second round. I was doubting between Hakeem, Moses and Baylor... and picked the worst one. GO ME!!!). I wasn't always looking for a great player, but for someone that could also fit the team and add something different, so I had a versatile roster able to play and adapt to several styles.

I really think my team would be one of the top teams in terms of chemistry... while I'm having a hard time believing some of the other teams would mesh well. I kept that in mind while drafting, too.

Finally, I was lucky to get the best coach. That has to count for something, as some people has coaches that don't fit their roster at all.

Coming next... the team-by-team review.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:43 am
Coltraning - Head Coach: Greg Popovic
Roster: MJ, Lebron, Walton, Nash, Dirk, Kidd, Carter, Cowens, Amare, Dantley, Ray Allen, Joe Fulks


Best offensive team without any kind of doubt. #32 brings a valid point with MJ being more used to a half-court setting, but I don't think that would be a problem.

Several issues I have with this team:

Defense.- Not much defense. MJ, Kidd, Cowens... and that's all. Terrible defensive team. Probably wouldn't matter much, tho, as it's a team built to outscore rivals.

Center.- I still think Walton is a big time reach at the point he was drafted (although he fits the team's style perfectly). Never been in love with Cowens. Should have gotten someone to help there with the last pick, instead of getting Fulks.

Coaching.- Pop is a terrible pick to coach that team. Just terrible.

John Patrick - Head Coach: Larry Brown
Roster: Wilt, Barkley, Iceman, Cousy, dominique wilkins, Wes Unseld, payton, Bernard King, Hal Greer, Richmond, Mullin, Bosh


Another weird pick to coach this team. Larry would probably play the same 5 guys 40 minutes per game... I can't see him working well with, say, Bernard King or Bosh.

What else does this team have?. Lots of firepower, which makes it a dangerous team. But I agree with Pest. It's too small. And defense is not exactly stifling. I think Larry would rather coach his Pistons than this team.

Looks like a team that can beat anybody if they're hot. And will lose the rest of the games.

Reggielewis - Head Coach: Lenny Wilkens
Roster: Kareem, Barry, Elvin Hayes, Iverson, Reggie Miller, Parish, English, THompson, Bing, Lanier, Marques Johnson, Tony Parker


Some great picks (Kareem, AI, Hayes, Barry... even Thompson, who I personally like). I also like the coach. I think Lenny fits this team pretty well.

What's not to like?. Some reaches drafting (Parker, Marques Johnson... even Reggie Miller and Parish. I think both would have been available later). Also, could AI adapt to being the PG and not the first scoring option?.

Another dangerous team... but not the best one.

Pestilence - Head Coach: Red Holtzman
Roster: Magic, Mailman, Moses, Kobe, Rodman, Alonzo Mourning, Jerry Lucas, Nate Archibald, Ron Artest, Bob McAdoo, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson


Pretty serious talent here. Magic, Mo Malone (a steal in the third round), Kobe (a steal in the fourth. You picked these two a round after the one they belong to). Great role players (Alvin Robertson, Rodman, Mourning...) and a great pick as a coach for that roster.

What's not to like here?. Chemistry issues. Artest, Rodman, Kobe, the Mailman (who I think it's overrated and should have been no higher than a third round pick, but you got steals on other rounds, so it was good drafting anyway)... It may all blow up. Actually, that's probably what would happen with this roster. Looks great in fantasy basketball, but I doubt it would work in real life.

If we don't count chemistry, this team would be one of the top teams (if not the top). No doubt about it.

Xbayareawarriorx - Head Coach: Pat Riley
Roster: Bill Russell, Dr. J, Isiah, Pippen, Mikan, Wade, Reed, Artis Gilmore, sam jones, chris webber, Chris Paul, Dave Debuschere


Riley was a great pick to coach the team. What else looks good?. Russell, Pippen, Wade, Gilmore, Willis Reed.

What's not to like?. Almost any other pick. Dr. J should have been a 3rd or maybe even 4th round pick, Thomas is a cancer that can destroy any team if he's not the star (that would certainly happen here)... and the final picks are weak.

Migya - Head Coach: Phil Jackson
Roster: Larry Bird, Hakeem, KG, Pete Maravich, TMac, Ewing, Tim Hardaway, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Kevin Johnson, Paul Pierce, Walt Bellamy


I like this team a lot. You were lucky both Thunder and me botched the Olajuwon pick. I also like the PGs, Hardaway and KJ, who not only were good players. They're also a perfect fit for this team. Also, Bird and Hakeem are enough to be a contender. Jackson is a great coach. Probably not the best fit for that roster (or the roster for him), but he'd be able to make it work.

What I don't like are certain picks that came a bit high (Maravich, Grant Hill...). I also have my doubts about the role T-Mac would play in that team. Average defense, as pest said.

Also, you drafted lots of underachievers:

KG.- 8 times in the playoffs, just one series won.
Brand.- Just one season in the playoffs.
Hill.- 4 times in the playoffs, no series won.
T-Mac.- 5 times in the playoffs, no series won.

Still, a great team.

THUNDER: Head Coach: Chuck Daly
Roster: Shaq, Logo, Havlicek, Stockton, Pettit, Drexler, McHale, Yao, Sidney Moncrief, Marion, Ben Wallace, Dumars


Great coach, great center, some great picks for their respective rounds (Drexler, Moncrief, Stockton, Dumars...)

On the other side, West wasn't a good pick in the second round and Havlicek would have been available later. The first rounds are key in making a winner.

Lacks a true star outside, a Kobe or Lebron to feed off Shaq... Could have had better drafting with the first few picks.





Ok, that's all. Just my two cents about the draft. My honest, unbiased (as much as I could) and (most probably) wrong opinion about each and every team.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:23 am
TMC wrote:
Migya - Head Coach: Phil Jackson
Roster: Larry Bird, Hakeem, KG, Pete Maravich, TMac, Ewing, Tim Hardaway, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Kevin Johnson, Paul Pierce, Walt Bellamy


I like this team a lot. You were lucky both Thunder and me botched the Olajuwon pick. I also like the PGs, Hardaway and KJ, who not only were good players. They're also a perfect fit for this team. Also, Bird and Hakeem are enough to be a contender. Jackson is a great coach. Probably not the best fit for that roster (or the roster for him), but he'd be able to make it work.

What I don't like are certain picks that came a bit high (Maravich, Grant Hill...). I also have my doubts about the role T-Mac would play in that team. Average defense, as pest said.

Also, you drafted lots of underachievers:

KG.- 8 times in the playoffs, just one series won.
Brand.- Just one season in the playoffs.
Hill.- 4 times in the playoffs, no series won.
T-Mac.- 5 times in the playoffs, no series won.

Still, a great team.



Thanks for the positive evaluation TMC.

About the so called underachievers - Look at the teams they had and you will see why they didn't win that much :wink:
All four are superstars (Brand arguably is) and have all been nba elite!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:43 am
What's not to like here?. Chemistry issues. Artest, Rodman, Kobe, the Mailman (who I think it's overrated and should have been no higher than a third round pick, but you got steals on other rounds, so it was good drafting anyway)... It may all blow up. Actually, that's probably what would happen with this roster. Looks great in fantasy basketball, but I doubt it would work in real life.

fair issue about chemistry, but kobe is not bad for chemistry and never has been, shaq is just an asshole. Moses Malone isn't bad for chemistry as he was MVP multiple times despite having multiple superstars on his team - he takes very little shots that he doesn't make for himself off offensive boards. Rodman is a wacko but has never hurt a team through his weirdness, he's more in the Darryl Dawkins category. I think Artest is the only legitimate gripe about chemistry and he was a late pick.
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