#32 wrote:

coltraning wrote:

#32 wrote:Ike is naturally talented, there's no question (and that's the reason he's in the game to begin with: because his natural talent can overshadow his inability to learn the playbook). I'm just thinking about how dangerous Ike would become if he DID learn the playbook...

he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I could see Ike Diogu put up the following (if he learned the playbook):

18.8 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 1.6 BPG, 56% FG, 79% FT
In 34.6 MPG

that seems pretty precise.......anywhere you got those #s from or just a guesstimate? (not that I'm disagreeing)

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

John Patrick wrote:

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

Biedrins will not get all the rebounds. Diogu has shown, especially lately, that he is a good rebounder. Marion and Amare, to name just one duo, average high rebounds individually. It just depends on how good a player is at rebounding and both Biedrins and Diogu have shown that they are good

John Patrick wrote:

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

Also, a high tempo allows for more shots and more boards... there will be enough for everybody.

I'd see Ike getting 6 boards if we were playing like, say, Houston. But with out current style, there will be plenty.

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

Let's be honest here; Ike has shown flashes of brillance, especially during a stretch last season; however, the jury is still out as to how good he can be. I like his game; however, he is a bit undersized and also does not appear to fit into Nelson's game plan. That being said, it is a long season, and throughout the course of an 82 game schedule, he will get opportunities to show us what he can do. If the team played more of a half-court set up game on offense, Ike could definitely play the low block. I also believe that Ike matches up well with Murphy, with Murphy on the high post and Ike in the paint. I cannot say the same with Ike and Dunleavy; Ike is definitely undersized to play center. I also am not sure how well Ike compliments Biedrens (both are in-the-paint players).

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

Also, a high tempo allows for more shots and more boards... there will be enough for everybody.

I'd see Ike getting 6 boards if we were playing like, say, Houston. But with out current style, there will be plenty.

migya wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

Biedrins will not get all the rebounds. Diogu has shown, especially lately, that he is a good rebounder. Marion and Amare, to name just one duo, average high rebounds individually. It just depends on how good a player is at rebounding and both Biedrins and Diogu have shown that they are good

rebounding is not a zero sum game. The Ws currently get consistently outrebounded by a considerable margin, so there are at least 8-9 more rebounds a game available for Ike...I think the 2 legitimate knocks against Ike are
1) his defense
2) can he run in the open court game Nelly prefers, since Nellie dsilikes the 1/2court low post game?

We will never know unless he actually gets some significant minutes. Dung has gotten majorly more minutes than he deserves over the past 4 plus years, so we have a pretty good idea what he can do. With Ike, we are looking at tea leaves, and all we can go by is that he has excellent production in the limited minutes he does get, and his minutes have been haphazard and sparse.

John Patrick wrote:

migya wrote:

TMC wrote:

John Patrick wrote:

coltraning wrote:he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I wouldn't imagine him getting 10 rebounds alongside Biedrins... but the 20 PPG could happen.

I can... pending on how aggresive he plays. I just hope we have the chance to know.

Diogu definately could average 20 and 10. Biedrins would still get his rebounds, it's just that the team would get more rebounds overall, finally

The one player you guys are forgetting is Pietrus. He is probably quicker to the ball than anyone on the team. he is rebounding more and more. he is the closest thing to Marion that we've got. As long as Pietrus palys it will be difficult for either Biedrins or Diogu to averge double figure rebounds. But that's OK. If we can get an average of 8 or 9 from all three would be great.

Disagree, I think Diogu will be in the 6.5 range if he gets minutes. Biedrins is just too tall and too good of a rebounder.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

#32 wrote:

coltraning wrote:

#32 wrote:Ike is naturally talented, there's no question (and that's the reason he's in the game to begin with: because his natural talent can overshadow his inability to learn the playbook). I'm just thinking about how dangerous Ike would become if he DID learn the playbook...

he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I could see Ike Diogu put up the following (if he learned the playbook):

18.8 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 1.6 BPG, 56% FG, 79% FT
In 34.6 MPG

that seems pretty precise.......anywhere you got those #s from or just a guesstimate? (not that I'm disagreeing)

Nope, just a guess.

#32 wrote:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:

#32 wrote:

coltraning wrote:

#32 wrote:Ike is naturally talented, there's no question (and that's the reason he's in the game to begin with: because his natural talent can overshadow his inability to learn the playbook). I'm just thinking about how dangerous Ike would become if he DID learn the playbook...

he'd be an easy 20/10 starter

I could see Ike Diogu put up the following (if he learned the playbook):

18.8 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 1.6 BPG, 56% FG, 79% FT
In 34.6 MPG

that seems pretty precise.......anywhere you got those #s from or just a guesstimate? (not that I'm disagreeing)

Nope, just a guess.

well, haven't checked in on the game yet, but F**khead Nelson has played Ike zero minutes thus far tonight, 1/2 way through the game. That'll show Ike for scoring 16 in 18 and 13 in 17 the last 2 games...

Did you ever see Latrell Sprewell play...?

The guy put up amazing numbers, but he was clearly having off-court issues that hindered the team. We don't want Ike to become that. If Ike gets 35 minutes a night his sophomore year and is allowed to complain and moap on his teammates, than Nelson's doing the kid an injustice by letting him think that sort of behavior is OK in the NBA.

Nelson knows talent. Let the man work. We got the W, didn't we?

#32 wrote:Did you ever see Latrell Sprewell play...?

The guy put up amazing numbers, but he was clearly having off-court issues that hindered the team. We don't want Ike to become that. If Ike gets 35 minutes a night his sophomore year and is allowed to complain and moap on his teammates, than Nelson's doing the kid an injustice by letting him think that sort of behavior is OK in the NBA.

Nelson knows talent. Let the man work. We got the W, didn't we?

32, that's a red herring. Latrell Sprewell? please - other than 1 comment from Nelson, there has been zero indication of any bad attitude by Ike. I would like to see some evidence before labeling Ike a malcontent. If anyone has displayed bitchy and moany personality it has been Dung, and I don't see him being analogized to Spree. (Btw, there were numerous reports as to Spree's vagrant psyche as early as his rookie year.)

What we do know is that nelson has had a series of conflicts with various personalities over the years, including being the only coach who had anything bad to say about Ewing (a cast that included Riley, Hubie Brown and jeff Van Gundy). I think it highly likely that Ike's "moping and complaining" would have surfaced before, whereas from marciulonis through Ewing, not to mention his holding Cohan up for millions, Nelson has a history of irascibility, putting players in the doghouse, playing favorites, and not liking big men who play a low post game (see manute and ewing shooting 3s).

I have watched Ike like a hawk, cause I think he is talented, plays with great spirit and has gotten a raw deal. As opposed to Dung, from whom I have witnessed petulant behavior on numerous occasions, I have never seen it from Ike on the court.

The fundamental reality is, Ike was rewarded for 2 games of excellent play (13 in 17 and 16 in 18 minutes) with a DNP. This is illogical unless he was injured or told Nelson he fuked his Mama. Diogu is our second leading scorer per 48 mins, leading rebounder per 48 minutes and 2nd leading fg% leader period. these #s are staggering, considering the sporadic and illogical and often rare minutes he gets. I would just like to see this gifted young man get consistent minutes at his natural position (4), say 25 minutes a game for 20 games. I don't think there is any secret that he would excel.

I have seen this again and again in this league(unappreciated talent prospering elsewhere), including with playoff mvp Chauncey Billups and most recently with Matt Barnes, and the last thing we need is another talented ex-warrior with a grudge lighting up the league in some other uniform. Like I said, perhaps Ike is a private "blamer" but I would just say it will take more than one Don nelson temper tantrum public shaming to convince me that Ike is a malcontent. With all the rumors on the internet, you think SOMETHING would have surfaced to confirm that by now. Nothing. There are several articles expressing mystification at why Diogu is in Nelson's doghouse, though. Btw, publicly calling out your players, ala Larry Brown, is a classless and dispiriting power play, whether it's Ike or Dung or Murphy whom Nelson is calling out. At least in the case of Dung and Murphy they also bitched publicly, so you could argue fair is fair.

I am glad the Ws are 17-16. I would like to see them do well, maybe even win a couple of games as an 8th seed. The playoffs are about 1/2 court and we need all the help we can get, and Ike is the ONLY W with a credible low post game. So Free (i.e. play) Ike Diogu...or trade him, cause the kid deserves to play.

coltraning wrote:other than 1 comment from Nelson, there has been zero indication of any bad attitude by Ike. I would like to see some evidence before labeling Ike a malcontent. If anyone has displayed bitchy and moany personality it has been Dung

I have watched Ike like a hawk, cause I think he is talented, plays with great spirit and has gotten a raw deal. As opposed to Dung, from whom I have witnessed petulant behavior on numerous occasions, I have never seen it from Ike on the court.

Totally true and not a good thing to be seeing. Hope Nelson dtarts playing Diogu more because it should make the difference between the team being a 50% team and a top 5 team

Low block players who thrive in the half-court offense, like Ike, do not fit into the Nelson style of basketball. Even a young Terry Cummings was more of a face the basket guy than a low block guy.

Ike looks frustrated on the court. Perhaps it is a matter of working himself back into shape and getting his timing right since the injury; however, it does not look good for him right now.

We should all remember that this is an 82 game schedule. Guys get injured; guys go into slumps; guys go into the coach's doghouse...it's a long season. As long as Ike is in the rotation, he should have a chance.

It may also be a matter of finding the right combinations. Ike on the low block with Murphy at the high post may work well; while Ike on the low block with Biedrens also in the paint may not. Ike on the block with Dunleavy up high may also work; however, that combination lacks height. A combination of Ike with Murphy and Dunleavy with Biedrens may be the team's best bet.

coltraning wrote:32, that's a red herring. Latrell Sprewell? please - other than 1 comment from Nelson, there has been zero indication of any bad attitude by Ike. I would like to see some evidence before labeling Ike a malcontent. If anyone has displayed bitchy and moany personality it has been Dung, and I don't see him being analogized to Spree. (Btw, there were numerous reports as to Spree's vagrant psyche as early as his rookie year.)

What we do know is that nelson has had a series of conflicts with various personalities over the years, including being the only coach who had anything bad to say about Ewing (a cast that included Riley, Hubie Brown and jeff Van Gundy). I think it highly likely that Ike's "moping and complaining" would have surfaced before, whereas from marciulonis through Ewing, not to mention his holding Cohan up for millions, Nelson has a history of irascibility, putting players in the doghouse, playing favorites, and not liking big men who play a low post game (see manute and ewing shooting 3s).

I have watched Ike like a hawk, cause I think he is talented, plays with great spirit and has gotten a raw deal. As opposed to Dung, from whom I have witnessed petulant behavior on numerous occasions, I have never seen it from Ike on the court.

The fundamental reality is, Ike was rewarded for 2 games of excellent play (13 in 17 and 16 in 18 minutes) with a DNP. This is illogical unless he was injured or told Nelson he fuked his Mama. Diogu is our second leading scorer per 48 mins, leading rebounder per 48 minutes and 2nd leading fg% leader period. these #s are staggering, considering the sporadic and illogical and often rare minutes he gets. I would just like to see this gifted young man get consistent minutes at his natural position (4), say 25 minutes a game for 20 games. I don't think there is any secret that he would excel.

I have seen this again and again in this league(unappreciated talent prospering elsewhere), including with playoff mvp Chauncey Billups and most recently with Matt Barnes, and the last thing we need is another talented ex-warrior with a grudge lighting up the league in some other uniform. Like I said, perhaps Ike is a private "blamer" but I would just say it will take more than one Don nelson temper tantrum public shaming to convince me that Ike is a malcontent. With all the rumors on the internet, you think SOMETHING would have surfaced to confirm that by now. Nothing. There are several articles expressing mystification at why Diogu is in Nelson's doghouse, though. Btw, publicly calling out your players, ala Larry Brown, is a classless and dispiriting power play, whether it's Ike or Dung or Murphy whom Nelson is calling out. At least in the case of Dung and Murphy they also bitched publicly, so you could argue fair is fair.

I am glad the Ws are 17-16. I would like to see them do well, maybe even win a couple of games as an 8th seed. The playoffs are about 1/2 court and we need all the help we can get, and Ike is the ONLY W with a credible low post game. So Free (i.e. play) Ike Diogu...or trade him, cause the kid deserves to play.

We knew this going into the season; it's Don Nelson's way or the highway.

Dunleavy is a complainer... but not to his teammates (save for his single, snide comment about Baron last season). Bitching about foul calls is one thing. Blaming your teammates for your mistakes it another.

You nor I know the truth of the situation because all we see are the on-court results. But many things go into a basketball players. Before and after game times, practice times, travel conversation, bench conversation, half-time attitude, ect... all of those things go into what Nelson has said about Ike Diogu.

Does Diogu seem like a complainer on the floor? Tough to say. As charismatic as the kid is, he's also been seen (several times) cutting down his teammates. I won't cite other people's examples, but (from my own standpoint), I've seen Ike yell at Mike Dunleavy when Jr told him to set a screen, I've seen Ike get on Biedrins' ass after the other team hit an easy dunk inside (on Ike's side, by the way), and I've seen Ike walk straight to the bench and roll his eyes when he doesn't get enough touches. Is Diogu a complainer? No fan can say for sure. But it certainly doesn't look out of this world for Nelson to say something like that.

Besides, this is getting way out of hand. Don Nelson has practically blue-printed what he doesn't like about Diogu in the papers. If Ike's reading what I read, than he knows that all he needs to do in order to get more playing time is this: (a) learn the playbook and (b) stop blaming his teammates.

People here are acting like Nelson's got a personal vendetta against some 20-year-old kid that he's never met before this season! Which sounds crazier: that Ike doesn't know where to be, that Ike blames his teammates, or that Don Nelson (personally) has it out for Ike Diogu after only 3 months??

It's not rocket science and it won't take months of work to accomplish: if Ike learns where he's suppose to be and keeps his mouth shut, Nelson will play him. It's that simple. Why is everyone here having such a hard time accepting that? This isn't Nelson's fault; it's clearly Ike's.

Nelson has spelled out (he's practically spoon-fed) what it will take for Ike to get playing time... and, still, Diogu doesn't listen. Whose fault is that?