aletha33 wrote:

coltraning wrote:32, I gotta go with TMC on this, Pest's quotes are pretty clear - kinda feels like you are trying to pick a fight w/Pest where none exists, and I am not sure that the name-calling strengthens your case. You are a bright cat with strong opinions, like a lot of us. Speaking of which, a # of us bright cats with strong opinions have an issue with how Baron plays at the end of games, but I don't see anyone saying Baron doesn't have a huge # of positives. That's what is maddening about him. It's not like Foyle or Dung, who have limited skills. He has major skills when he chooses to use them. Esp. in the Jersey game, he played brilliantly for 3 quarters and then stupidly for one. What is SO frustrating about him is he demonstrates time and again the ability to be an amazing distributor and playmaker, and then something happens. I saw this again and again with him last year, and it seems to have resurfaced after this year's injury. I know Monta is also turnover prone, but they had so much success early with him handling and Baron roaming off the ball...I would like to see them get back to that.

it's called "monta's jump shot is not falling now"... and "monta can't drive to the left" that makes him totally easy to guard, a one-dimensional, drive only, out of control, predictable player..

but he'll adjust, then the rest of the league will adjust, then he'll adjust again, and in two to three years, we'll have a monster on our hands...

that's why we havent seem them 'get back to that'...

sorry, I watched that game, and in the 4th quarter it was called "baron's not passing the ball to anyone, not running, not driving and he is taking contested 3s with 2 seconds left on the clock". Monta barely touched the ball that quarter. Against Boston, Baron played 4 brilliant quarters and was the main reason we won. Even though he monopolized the ball, he drove, created, got to the line and took makeable shots (though one was ridiculously hard and superstar-level), which was why he was 11/16. Like Nash, Baron best helps his team when he is a passer. This team lives and dies by him right now, and when he creates, drives and distributes like he did last night against Boston, there are probably only 2-3 point guards in the league I would rather have. It is not arguable that there are times when he takes the air out of the ball, stops running and driving and (I think) stops trusting his teammates. I think the only teammate he truly trusts is JRich, and it is interesting that he played so well with JRich on the court (even though JRich was 4/19). Anytime Baron passes, drives, dishes and creates like last night the Ws are in the game. I wonder if there is a stat on the Ws record when BD shoots more or less than 20 times in a game? Pest?

coltraning wrote:

aletha33 wrote:

coltraning wrote:32, I gotta go with TMC on this, Pest's quotes are pretty clear - kinda feels like you are trying to pick a fight w/Pest where none exists, and I am not sure that the name-calling strengthens your case. You are a bright cat with strong opinions, like a lot of us. Speaking of which, a # of us bright cats with strong opinions have an issue with how Baron plays at the end of games, but I don't see anyone saying Baron doesn't have a huge # of positives. That's what is maddening about him. It's not like Foyle or Dung, who have limited skills. He has major skills when he chooses to use them. Esp. in the Jersey game, he played brilliantly for 3 quarters and then stupidly for one. What is SO frustrating about him is he demonstrates time and again the ability to be an amazing distributor and playmaker, and then something happens. I saw this again and again with him last year, and it seems to have resurfaced after this year's injury. I know Monta is also turnover prone, but they had so much success early with him handling and Baron roaming off the ball...I would like to see them get back to that.

it's called "monta's jump shot is not falling now"... and "monta can't drive to the left" that makes him totally easy to guard, a one-dimensional, drive only, out of control, predictable player..

but he'll adjust, then the rest of the league will adjust, then he'll adjust again, and in two to three years, we'll have a monster on our hands...

that's why we havent seem them 'get back to that'...

sorry, I watched that game, and in the 4th quarter it was called "baron's not passing the ball to anyone, not running, not driving and he is taking contested 3s with 2 seconds left on the clock". Monta barely touched the ball that quarter. Against Boston, Baron played 4 brilliant quarters and was the main reason we won. Even though he monopolized the ball, he drove, created, got to the line and took makeable shots (though one was ridiculously hard and superstar-level), which was why he was 11/16. Like Nash, Baron best helps his team when he is a passer. This team lives and dies by him right now, and when he creates, drives and distributes like he did last night against Boston, there are probably only 2-3 point guards in the league I would rather have. It is not arguable that there are times when he takes the air out of the ball, stops running and driving and (I think) stops trusting his teammates. I think the only teammate he truly trusts is JRich, and it is interesting that he played so well with JRich on the court (even though JRich was 4/19). Anytime Baron passes, drives, dishes and creates like last night the Ws are in the game. I wonder if there is a stat on the Ws record when BD shoots more or less than 20 times in a game? Pest?

interesting points...

i think where i disagree with you is when you say BD is best when he distributes...

i'm not so sure that's true...

you imply that BD has teammates that can come through and convert consistently...we dont have that nor has anyone proved, other than BD, that he can come through in the clutch.

and i'm not talking about converting in the 1st 3 quarters...the 1st 3 and the 4th quarters..completely different beasts.

last night, the only guy that came through was pietrus, and that was only in the 1st half of the 4th...

we won cuz BD took control and and came through like he's capable...

aletha33 wrote:
interesting points...

i think where i disagree with you is when you say BD is best when he distributes...

i'm not so sure that's true...

you imply that BD has teammates that can come through and convert consistently...we dont have that nor has anyone proved, other than BD, that he can come through in the clutch.

and i'm not talking about converting in the 1st 3 quarters...the 1st 3 and the 4th quarters..completely different beasts.

last night, the only guy that came through was pietrus, and that was only in the 1st half of the 4th...

we won cuz BD took control and and came through like he's capable...

I am happy to see BD play that way anytime. The one time he hurts the team is when he takes the air out of the ball, dribbles around at the top of the arc and takes a contested shot. He is no Ray Allen as an outside shooter, seeming to only make 3s in rhythm. You are right that he is the only W who can consistently create his shot, though I think Ike and Ellis will get there (assuming Ike ever gets any consistent PT). As long as he is attacking, driving, etc...he can shoot, pass, whatever and the team will thrive.
I see the Ws as having a # of good finishers, and in JRich, Ellis, Ike and Biedrins 4 players who can sometimes create their own shots. BD is the only one who can create and dish and drive. Ws lead the league in fast break points, and need to push the tempo relentlessly, because they really have very little 1/2 court offense.

I have to say I am really mystified as to why Ike got so little love. It was pretty obvious they couldn't stop him in his limited time out there, and in the second 1/2 he got 2 boards in 4 minutes and was on the bench again. Since the Ws have so much trouble scoring in 1/2 court and that is Ike's strength, I find Nelson's decision baffling.

coltraning wrote:

aletha33 wrote:
interesting points...

i think where i disagree with you is when you say BD is best when he distributes...

i'm not so sure that's true...

you imply that BD has teammates that can come through and convert consistently...we dont have that nor has anyone proved, other than BD, that he can come through in the clutch.

and i'm not talking about converting in the 1st 3 quarters...the 1st 3 and the 4th quarters..completely different beasts.

last night, the only guy that came through was pietrus, and that was only in the 1st half of the 4th...

we won cuz BD took control and and came through like he's capable...

I am happy to see BD play that way anytime. The one time he hurts the team is when he takes the air out of the ball, dribbles around at the top of the arc and takes a contested shot. He is no Ray Allen as an outside shooter, seeming to only make 3s in rhythm. You are right that he is the only W who can consistently create his shot, though I think Ike and Ellis will get there (assuming Ike ever gets any consistent PT). As long as he is attacking, driving, etc...he can shoot, pass, whatever and the team will thrive.
I see the Ws as having a # of good finishers, and in JRich, Ellis, Ike and Biedrins 4 players who can sometimes create their own shots. BD is the only one who can create and dish and drive. Ws lead the league in fast break points, and need to push the tempo relentlessly, because they really have very little 1/2 court offense.

I have to say I am really mystified as to why Ike got so little love. It was pretty obvious they couldn't stop him in his limited time out there, and in the second 1/2 he got 2 boards in 4 minutes and was on the bench again. Since the Ws have so much trouble scoring in 1/2 court and that is Ike's strength, I find Nelson's decision baffling.

about ike, as a coach, it might be a number of factors...

one, conditioning...as fast as the nba is, and as under-conditioned (for a lack of a better word) as he is, i don't think he can sustain a high level of play for more than a few minutes...

two, he's not a very good defender...jumps at jump-shooters with no jump shots...gets beat on cuts to the basket...this gets amplified even more being out of shape.

three, he doesn't know the offensive sets well enough...he disrupts the rythm of the set & of the team by being in the wrong spot...

aletha33 wrote:[

about ike, as a coach, it might be a number of factors...

one, conditioning...as fast as the nba is, and as under-conditioned (for a lack of a better word) as he is, i don't think he can sustain a high level of play for more than a few minutes...

two, he's not a very good defender...jumps at jump-shooters with no jump shots...gets beat on cuts to the basket...this gets amplified even more being out of shape.

three, he doesn't know the offensive sets well enough...he disrupts the rythm of the set & of the team by being in the wrong spot...

conditioning makes sense, though last night I doubt he got exhausted in 4 minutes in the 2nd 1/2.

He is a clueless defender, you are right on that, though he gets beat no more than Dung, who regularly gets schooled...on the other hand, he does get some blocks and boards, rare commodities on this team.

I can see that vis-a-vis offensive sets, but part of that is he is the only classic post-up player on the team and it would behoove Nelson to put in some nice pick and rolls for him and Baron, since that would be pretty unstoppable. The other factor is that Nelson has never been enamored of the low post player, so it may be a mismatch, stylistically.

coltraning wrote:

TMC wrote:God, this is the same than pest and #32.

Pest was talking about one bad quarter, not the whole season. That list was the players to blame for the loss of that game, and only that game, and due to the way they (well, he) played in the last quarter.

If things are taken out of context, everyone is to blame for everything. But if you try reading all of Pest's post in this thread, you'll realize he was only talking about one period of just one game.

I agree, the strawman thing is getting tedious, bro. Nuance is a word in the English language, too.

Wow, this entire thread has completely turned into an unrelated pissing match.

1. Baron gets trashed by posters.

2. Other posters come to his defense.

3. Original posters claim 'they never said anything bad about Baron'.

4. Other posters retort with directly related comments (sometimes in PARAGRAPHS at a time) that prove otherwise.

5. Original posters use Republican ploy of "you don't understand" or "you're taking things out of context" as a means of escape.

6. Repeat stages 4-6.

Mission accomplished, boys. We've completely lost touch with the original argument... and are now going in circles.

#32 wrote:
5. Original posters use Republican ploy of "you don't understand" or "you're taking things out of context" as a means of escape.
. We've completely lost touch with the original argument... and are now going in circles.

sigh - republican ploy...please. Nuance and context are about as far from republican ploys as you can get. You are a pretty bright guy, 32, so you know as well as anyone that goppers prefer to make up accusations against their opponents, usually in the form of ad hominem attacks (swift boat, willie horton, aclu), and repeat them endlessly, regardless of evidence to the contrary. In this thread, seems like the only one keeping the argument going right now is you, my contentious friend. Last time I checked, Aletha and I were engaged in a discussion about why Ike is not getting minutes. your thoughts on that?

#32 wrote:

coltraning wrote:

TMC wrote:God, this is the same than pest and #32.

Pest was talking about one bad quarter, not the whole season. That list was the players to blame for the loss of that game, and only that game, and due to the way they (well, he) played in the last quarter.

If things are taken out of context, everyone is to blame for everything. But if you try reading all of Pest's post in this thread, you'll realize he was only talking about one period of just one game.

I agree, the strawman thing is getting tedious, bro. Nuance is a word in the English language, too.

Wow, this entire thread has completely turned into an unrelated pissing match.

1. Baron gets trashed by posters.

2. Other posters come to his defense.

3. Original posters claim 'they never said anything bad about Baron'.

4. Other posters retort with directly related comments (sometimes in PARAGRAPHS at a time) that prove otherwise.

5. Original posters use Republican ploy of "you don't understand" or "you're taking things out of context" as a means of escape.

6. Repeat stages 4-6.

Mission accomplished, boys. We've completely lost touch with the original argument... and are now going in circles.

Dude, 32, you are the argument, give it up.

1. Monta is bashed after baron just botched the fourth quarter and monta was our only reliable player during that stretch

2. Baron is bashed for his fourth quarter and fourth quarter alone

3. You say I said numerous things I never said, in your typical manner

4. I take a leave of absence from the thread because you're about the third most difficult person on this site to reason with (after socool and jrich)

5. You say you're leaving the thread

6. You and the methods you use in ever argument are nailed. Just outright nailed

7. You come back just half an hour after you "leave" the thread, despite little activitity there.

8. You spew another stream of lies for the umpteenth time

9. Nobody listens, you try to start up the thread again

10. I return after turning the other cheek through five posts of your libel

I told it how it is. I'm out again.

coltraning wrote:your thoughts on that?

Glad you asked. I saw that Pest has been off making a list (afterall, I just did that, so, of course, it figures he'll follow suit because he has no new ideas) and I'm dying for an excuse not to read his dribble.

Anyway, as far as Ike Diogu goes, Don Nelson's working him back into the system. He got 7 minutes on his comeback night, but a quick PF and turnover planted him back on the bench against New Jersey. I think all was made clear in the game against Boston, where Ike got 11:33 taking on Al Jefferson.

Whenever Diogu's in the game, Nelson's running plays through him in the post. 5 attempts at the hoop in 11 minutes isn't bad, considering Baron Davis' big night and Richardson's huge amount of shot attempts.

Biedrins is cooling off lately. Since beating the Rockets, Andris has put up games at 28%, 27%, 50%, and 46% from the field. Those last two aren't bad... but when you consider that he's 62% on the season... they look a lot worse. With AB struggling a bit to get his shots down, Ike suddenly has a role as our main post threat.

I'd assume he gets a good amount of minutes against the Magic (somebody's got to at least TRY to keep Dwight Howard off the glass... and God knows Pietrus, Barnes, and Dunleavy aren't gonna cut it). All the signs look right for Ike's first breakout game to be during tomorrow's contest.

Since his return, Ike's putting up 4.5 PPG (on 75% from the field) and 2.3 RPG in barely 7 minutes a night. Those don't seem like much until you realize he only gets half a quarter of playing time. Diogu's back in playing shape... he just needs more minutes (and a little more luck with the ref's).

I'll bet he's starting by the time Murphy comes back from injury.

#32 wrote:

coltraning wrote:your thoughts on that?

Glad you asked. I saw that Pest has been off making a list (afterall, I just did that, so, of course, it figures he'll follow suit because he has no new ideas) and I'm dying for an excuse not to read his dribble.

Anyway, as far as Ike Diogu goes, Don Nelson's working him back into the system. He got 7 minutes on his comeback night, but a quick PF and turnover planted him back on the bench against New Jersey. I think all was made clear in the game against Boston, where Ike got 11:33 taking on Al Jefferson.

Whenever Diogu's in the game, Nelson's running plays through him in the post. 5 attempts at the hoop in 11 minutes isn't bad, considering Baron Davis' big night and Richardson's huge amount of shot attempts.

Biedrins is cooling off lately. Since beating the Rockets, Andris has put up games at 28%, 27%, 50%, and 46% from the field. Those last two aren't bad... but when you consider that he's 62% on the season... they look a lot worse. With AB struggling a bit to get his shots down, Ike suddenly has a role as our main post threat.

I'd assume he gets a good amount of minutes against the Magic (somebody's got to at least TRY to keep Dwight Howard off the glass... and God knows Pietrus, Barnes, and Dunleavy aren't gonna cut it). All the signs look right for Ike's first breakout game to be during tomorrow's contest.

Since his return, Ike's putting up 4.5 PPG (on 75% from the field) and 2.3 RPG in barely 7 minutes a night. Those don't seem like much until you realize he only gets half a quarter of playing time. Diogu's back in playing shape... he just needs more minutes (and a little more luck with the ref's).

I'll bet he's starting by the time Murphy comes back from injury.

Hope you are right and yes, extraoplate those #s to starter minutes and he is getting 20/8. I was just concerned about the Boston game, because he barely got any 2nd 1/2 time after scoring at will in the first 1/2, and that seemed really odd to me. We'll see against Orlando, cause you are right, that is a game tailormade for his strengths.