Monta Ellis

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:11 am
OK, a lot of people misunderstood because I'm NOT talking about this game only. I'm talking about the whole season. Monta makes stupid turnovers. I'm leaving Baron out of this. YES, he had a terrible 4th quarter. But he's our best player (at least for now), and he has Nelson's trust. Also, he's done some great 4th quarter things as well.

Now, back to Monta. His turnover rate (yes, in the fourth quarter too. He doesn't take as many shots as Baron, but he does get touches on the ball) is too high for a crunch time player.

Since he is not going to take the crunch-time shots (at least for now, and I know having Baron take the shots is nerve-racking, but he is taking them, get over it), why leave him in? He still will commit those inexperienced turnovers. I'd rather have someone else, just ANYONE, who will not commit those turnovers. Leave Monta in for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th though, let him commit the silly turnovers then. That's the time when he can develop and grow as a basketball player. But as a team aspiring for playoffs and on the borderline, we cannot afford his mistakes that can and will screw up a ball game.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:04 pm
John Patrick wrote:OK, a lot of people misunderstood because I'm NOT talking about this game only. I'm talking about the whole season. Monta makes stupid turnovers. I'm leaving Baron out of this. YES, he had a terrible 4th quarter. But he's our best player (at least for now), and he has Nelson's trust. Also, he's done some great 4th quarter things as well.

Now, back to Monta. His turnover rate (yes, in the fourth quarter too. He doesn't take as many shots as Baron, but he does get touches on the ball) is too high for a crunch time player.

Since he is not going to take the crunch-time shots (at least for now, and I know having Baron take the shots is nerve-racking, but he is taking them, get over it), why leave him in? He still will commit those inexperienced turnovers. I'd rather have someone else, just ANYONE, who will not commit those turnovers. Leave Monta in for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th though, let him commit the silly turnovers then. That's the time when he can develop and grow as a basketball player. But as a team aspiring for playoffs and on the borderline, we cannot afford his mistakes that can and will screw up a ball game.

Your point is understood and I disagree with it. Who do you want to see on the floor in his place?

Monta does turn the ball over some, but I do not see a viable option on the bench to take his place. McLeod? Roberson? No thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:05 pm
ChicagoTom wrote:Your point is understood and I disagree with it. Who do you want to see on the floor in his place?

Monta does turn the ball over some, but I do not see a viable option on the bench to take his place. McLeod? Roberson? No thanks.



Yep, until J-Rich comes back at full (or near full) strenght, there's no one else to play those minutes.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:06 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:And who would you replace Monta with?

Who else? The returning Jason Richardson (whose been known to get hot in the 4th quarter).

Honestly, I think Monta needs some more bench time before he warrants a FULL-TIME starting role. The Warriors got pathetically out-rebounded last night. There were instances where Jersey got 2 or 3 offensive boards on the same possesion. That means we should make the small-lineup our change-up, but keep some size in there for when the running game isn't working.

I think Baron & J-Rich made the best backcourt... and we should start Biedrins in the middle. The forwards are the positions in question... and, right now, I feel like Pietrus and Murphy (soon to be Diogu) should start. Monta should be the first off the bench, followed by Barnes, followed by Ike, then Dunleavy.

I really think it would make the best lineup. Baron, Rich, and Pietrus are still a run-and-gun lineup, but we aren't horrifically undersized.

I just hate being outrebounded 2-to-1. Its horrible.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:11 pm
#32 wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:And who would you replace Monta with?

Who else? The returning Jason Richardson (whose been known to get hot in the 4th quarter).

Honestly, I think Monta needs some more bench time before he warrants a FULL-TIME starting role. The Warriors got pathetically out-rebounded last night. There were instances where Jersey got 2 or 3 offensive boards on the same possesion. That means we should make the small-lineup our change-up, but keep some size in there for when the running game isn't working.

I think Baron & J-Rich made the best backcourt... and we should start Biedrins in the middle. The forwards are the positions in question... and, right now, I feel like Pietrus and Murphy (soon to be Diogu) should start. Monta should be the first off the bench, followed by Barnes, followed by Ike, then Dunleavy.

I really think it would make the best lineup. Baron, Rich, and Pietrus are still a run-and-gun lineup, but we aren't horrifically undersized.

I just hate being outrebounded 2-to-1. Its horrible.


We used this lineup all last year and got woefully outrebounded every game? I guarantee, if you put J Rich and Baron in the back court together, you will see the most stagnant offense in the league. Both of them stand outside and pound the ball thinking how they can get their own shot. This is a disasterous mentality for your two guards to have.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:15 pm
Every player on the roster was in worse shape last year, we were starting Foyle over Biedrins (whose a huge improvement), and we were also starting Dunleavy the majority of the time.

Pietrus has proven this season that he can be a weak-side rebounder, Biedrins has been a force inside, and if Murphy can get his swing back, all 3 of our front court players will be able rebounders.

Do you think Monta looks for his own shot any less than Richardson??? Why else do you figure the kid averages 4 turnovers a game!?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:31 pm
this is a typical 32 attempt to start an argument where there is none

Nobody is arguing that Monta is better than BD or J-rich

I'm talking about with the injured J-rich we have now, there is no better option than monta and he is not the first person to blame for that loss. It seems kind of random to blame Monta for losing in the fourth quarters when we have Baron Sura choking during fourth quarters, Dunleavemewideopeniwillmiss, Troverrated Murphy, etc. Monta steps up in the fourth, did they bench ben gordon in the fourth because he got turnovers?

If you're going to talk about clutch situations, in situations in which the game is within 5 points with 5 minutes or less to go, Baron shoots 80% of his shots as jumpers and shoots 30% from the field. He shoots more in the last three seconds of the shot clock in those situations than in any other time frame.

In those same situations, monta shoots a 42% efg% (5% better than baron's) and shoots only 8% of his shots in the last 3 seconds of the shot clock.

Baron takes more shots than lebron does in the clutch.... and shoots 25.5% worse. he is terrible in the clutch[/b]
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:03 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:this is a typical 32 attempt to start an argument where there is none

Nobody is arguing that Monta is better than BD or J-rich

I'm talking about with the injured J-rich we have now, there is no better option than monta and he is not the first person to blame for that loss. It seems kind of random to blame Monta for losing in the fourth quarters when we have Baron Sura choking during fourth quarters, Dunleavemewideopeniwillmiss, Troverrated Murphy, etc. Monta steps up in the fourth, did they bench ben gordon in the fourth because he got turnovers?

If you're going to talk about clutch situations, in situations in which the game is within 5 points with 5 minutes or less to go, Baron shoots 80% of his shots as jumpers and shoots 30% from the field. He shoots more in the last three seconds of the shot clock in those situations than in any other time frame.

In those same situations, monta shoots a 42% efg% (5% better than baron's) and shoots only 8% of his shots in the last 3 seconds of the shot clock.

Baron takes more shots than lebron does in the clutch.... and shoots 25.5% worse. he is terrible in the clutch[/b]

wow - those are compelling stats. Where are they from? They make sense with what I intuitively would have guessed from watching Baron. Here's the key. When baron strolls the ball up with no sense of urgency we are in contested 3 chucking with the shot clock running down territory. When he is running, driving and dishing the Ws win. And I would remind folks that the 2 biggest Ws wins of the year, Utah and San Antonio were with him out and Monta running the show.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:23 pm
Nelson is a veteran coach and he knows that this team sucks overall. Unfortunately, the pieces that Mullin has asssembled as assets are becoming big time liabilities. Reading betweeen the lines, Nelson wants to focus on giving key minutes to Diogu, Ellis and Biedrins despite the fact that we may lose a game or two in the process. I don't know what the status on Murphy may be, but he is not the long term solution in Nelson's offense and may be the worst front court defender in the league. Despite everyone's hatred of Dunleavy, it seems Nelson is showcasing Pietrus for an expiring contract, a young player and or a draft pick. Since the Fakers are desperate for a point guard, maybe the Warriors will be able to dump Baron for an expiring contract and a couple of first round picks. It is ironic that Nelson almost never says anything negative about a player on the trade block like Pietrus or BD but is very candid about Ellis, Biedrins, Dunleavy, Foyle and J-Rich.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:55 pm
Anyone see Ellis against first game against the suns? what a beast
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:00 pm
The Chron reported:
"It's a big problem that we take too many jump shots at important moments in the game when we have to get fouled or drive the ball like coach says all the time," Biedrins said.

Hmmm, sounds pretty critical of Davis to me, especially when he throws in the remark that this is contrary to Nelson's instructions.

A pretty direct comment from a 20 yr old kid! Impressive.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:32 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:this is a typical 32 attempt to start an argument where there is none

And a typical cranky-douche-bag response from pest...

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:I'm talking about with the injured J-rich we have now,

... you mean the one who came back last night? :|

If you're gonna keep crying about how out of it his game's been as of late, I'll just say this: Richardson wont get his swing back on the bench the whole night.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:there is no better option than monta and he is not the first person to blame for that loss.

Nobody's blaming him for the loss; least of all, me. As I've said many times before, I don't believe you can hold ONE player responsible for the outcome of any game. You, obviously, think different, because your sheer brilliance is telling everyone to sit Baron's ass down in the 4th quarter... y'know, Baron Davis, our only GREAT player right now. :roll:

If ANYBODY this season is playing with heart, determination, and the kind of fire we need, it's Baron. Monta's horribly inconsistent (and a TO machine), Jason and Murph have been off due to injuries, Ike hasn't played at all (basically), and Biedrins isn't fundamental enough to be our 2nd offensive weapon. Baron Davis, like it or not, is carrying this team as far as he can right now. Not Jason Richardson. Not your boy Monta Ellis. Baron Davis.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:It seems kind of random to blame Monta for losing in the fourth quarters

When have I EVER accused Monta of losing it in the 4th?!? If anything, the only quarter he ever SHOWS UP in is the 4th... and I've always said that.

Whose starting an argument here? The guy who straight up fist-rapes our best player just because he's looking for a scape goat... or the guy who stands up to defend him? :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:36 pm
#32 wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:It seems kind of random to blame Monta for losing in the fourth quarters

When have I EVER accused Monta of losing it in the 4th?!? If anything, the only quarter he ever SHOWS UP in is the 4th... and I've always said that.

Get with it, this entire discussion is about benching Monta in the fourth.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:35 pm
damn, it is getting hot in here: fist rape? :agrue:

anyway, this is the relevant passage, where we all started from:

John Patrick wrote:I hate to say this, but he shouldn't be in the game during crunch time (not yet).
Discuss.

most of us seem to disagree that Monta should be benched during crunch time
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:04 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Get with it, this entire discussion is about benching Monta in the fourth.

How are you gonna try and tell me that I'm off-topic when I was purely responding to YOUR opinionated tangent on how Baron supposedly lost us the game...? #-o

You were the one who dragged Baron into this thread, not me. I'm purely calling your statement BS.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:if you watched the game you know that the people to blame for the loss are
1. Baron
2. Baron
3. Baron
4. Baron

...

I reiterate, baron's choking is the biggest reason we lost the game

:bs: :withstupid:

Baron Davis did ANYTHING but directly lose us the game against New Jersey. On principle alone, you can't blame a loss on the guy who kept you in the game the entire night. It's contradictory and hypocritical. Ergo, your previous statement was wrong and I called you on it. End of story. Have a nice day.
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