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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:16 am
I, in a way, agree with #32. Kobe is a better player right now. But he's a worse teammate and his stubbornness makes him a cancer to any team.

Which makes him worse than Wade, as far as team success goes.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:57 am
Kobe is matbe just marginally ahead but he has been playing for so much longer and he never played in the finals the way Wade played!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:57 pm
TMC wrote:I, in a way, agree with #32. Kobe is a better player right now. But he's a worse teammate and his stubbornness makes him a cancer to any team.

You're right. He's stubborn and he's a bad teammate. I'm not arguing that. But (unlike players like Spewell, AI, or JR Rider, who were bad and never got results) Kobe has championship rings to show for his career. They're all in the same boat, but Kobe has a lot more to show for his troubles.

It's funny, because migya and disease have often talked about how worthless Shaquille O'Neal is and how he's the most over-rated player of all time... and, yet, they're saying that Kobe Bryant was little more than dead-weight on a championship train that Shaq pulled all the way to the finals by himself. Rather conflicting, this story seems.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:32 pm
#32 wrote:
TMC wrote:It's funny, because migya and disease have often talked about how worthless Shaquille O'Neal is and how he's the most over-rated player of all time... and, yet, they're saying that Kobe Bryant was little more than dead-weight on a championship train that Shaq pulled all the way to the finals by himself. Rather conflicting, this story seems.

Shaquille O'neal was a GREAT GREAT player and was far from worthless. I think that the problem is that there seem to be two camps, one that thinks that shaq is the MDE bar none and one of the three greatest of all time, and one that thinks that he's not even top 20. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think he was the best player in the league about 1999-2002. I think he is about top 10-15 of all time. I don't think he's the MDE and I don't think he "made" penny, kobe, and wade into superstars.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:53 pm
I don't think he made Dwayne Wade. He sure as hell made him an MVP candidate by his second season... but I think, without Shaq, Dwayne would still be a 20+ scorer with plenty of assists and rebounds per game. But having a force like Shaq (no matter how old he is) in your lineup will always free you up more.

I'm of a mind that Shaq is one of the five best players of all-time. In my own, humble, personal opinion, the list goes:

1) Michael Jordan - What can you say?

2) Oscar Robertson - Averaged a triple-double. Nobody else has ever come close.

3) Magic Johnson - the best playmaker of any era. a showman, a superstar, and the ideal teammate. Steve Nash made players around him into offensive threats; Magic may just get a few of them into the Hall-of-Fame.

4) Larry Bird - The Ying to Magic's Yang, I give Bird a hair lower of a rating because he was more personally offensive-minded than Magic. They were both offensive threats... with Bird, singly, being more dangerous. And they both made those around them better... with Magic taking that category by a couple steps. In my opinion, the team concept comes first, so Magic is a microfiber ahead of Bird.

5) Shaquille O'Neal - Quite simply, a force unlike anything the league has ever seen... and may ever see again. When he entered the league (and no coach or player had any clue on how to attack this monster), he averaged 23 points (56%), 14 rebounds, and 3.5 blocks in 81 games. No big man has been such a force his rookie year since. And none had come into the league with that sort of immediate power before (no, not even Kareem, Wilt, or Hakeem).

6) Julius Erving - Without Dr J, any of basketball's greatest players (including Michael Jordan, Dominique Wilkins, ect) might have never gone pro. He was (perhaps) 2nd only to Michael Jordan in terms of influencing the game.

7) Hakeem Olajuon - Perhaps the 2nd better center of all-time (behind Shaquille O'Neal).

8) Isiah Thomas - Zeke was the leader of the Bay Boys... just don't ask me about his GM career.

9) Wilt Chamberlain - In a lesser era, the most physically gifted player of his time. Wilt's numbers are uncomparable to anything anybody else has ever achieved. The reason Wilt misses the Top 5 is because he played with a bunch of earth-bound, skinny white boys (whereas players like Shaq, Kareem, Dawkins, Hakeem, and Admiral played in a much harder era for big men). No one can discount the numbers Wilt put up... but the level of the game hadn't reached it's peak yet, so Wilt can never (in my eyes) be seen as the most dominant player in the game because he might not have acheived these ridiculous numbers in a later era (same with Bill Russell).

10) John Stockton - The best pure PG of all-time.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:59 pm
#32 wrote:No one can discount the numbers Wilt put up... but the level of the game hadn't reached it's peak yet, so Wilt can never (in my eyes) be seen as the most dominant player in the game because he might not have acheived these ridiculous numbers in a later era (same with Bill Russell).


Then Big O shouldn't be that high. He would never average those numbers nowadays. If that statement applies to Wilt, it should do to Oscar Robertson.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:02 pm
LeBron is averaging those kind of numbers. Oscar was incredibly similar to LeBron.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:05 pm
#32 wrote:LeBron is averaging those kind of numbers. Oscar was incredibly similar to LeBron.


Without the same athleticism Lebron has.

He wouldn't be able to get those numbers. The game has evolved towards athletic players, and that makes everything more difficult (and more worthy. Just imagine his numbers if this Lebron were playing in that era).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:43 pm
Oscar was built pretty much exactly like LeBron. I'd say James has the leaping advantage, but I'd call Oscar a hair quicker. Robertson would probably average more assists, while not as many points or assists. Still, Oscar averaged 30 points a game. I think he'd still get over 18, for sure.

I'd think his nowadays numbers would be something like: 22 points, 8 assists, and 6 rebounds (whereas, I'd estimate Wilt - who relied more heaviliy on his physical means - would average around 15 points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block). That's a whole generation later. Oscar would still be amazingly good.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:06 pm
and 22, 8 and 6 would be the #2 player all time?.

FWIW, Oscar's stats in his best season, prorated to today, are
23.6 ppg, 8.7 apg, 7.6 rpg
Prorated to lebron's minutes his numbers were:
22.65 ppg, 8.35 apg, 7.3 rpg
Oscar's career stats, prorated to today, are:
19.6 ppg, 7.2 apg, 4.6 rpg

those don't really sound like second best all time numbers, do they? That is indisputable that lebron, already, is better than oscar ever was.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:16 pm
You're talking to somebody who believes LeBron will surpass every great player in NBA history. Every single one.

But taking what he'd average today into account doesn't mean everything. You can't completely destroy what he did in the past and disregard it; because without Oscar (and Michael, and Wilt, and Julius), the players that are in the league today (like LeBron) wouldn't exist. Oscar was a pioneer. He was one of the original triple-double little men. You have to balance what they did in their prime versus how they'd fair in today's game. Oscar averaged a triple-double in his prime... and would still put up near-LeBron numbers in today's game. That makes him good enough for the 2nd best of all-time, to me. I feel he's woefully under-rated, so that might prop him up a few places for me... but, regardless, it's still where I hold him.

It's all opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:03 pm
#32 wrote:It's funny, because migya and disease have often talked about how worthless Shaquille O'Neal is and how he's the most over-rated player of all time... and, yet, they're saying that Kobe Bryant was little more than dead-weight on a championship train that Shaq pulled all the way to the finals by himself. Rather conflicting, this story seems.



Bullshiit! I never said Shaq was the most overrated anything, just that he is not as great as many people believe he is and that he only won championshipd because he had decent talent around him, as did Jordan, but that does not mean he was not the main player on his teams (except the current Heat team).

Kobe only won those championships because of Shaquille O'neal and nothing else! Iverson would have won 3 or more champinships if he had replaced Kobe on those Lakers teams!

Fact is, as shown the last two seasons, that Kobe Bryant is a talented player but a cry baby and a quitter when things get too hot for him to handle. He is not a true alltime great because those sorts of players, like Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, even players that did not win championships, like Pierce, Iverson, Barkley and other stars, stepped up when needed pretty much all the time and never puled the stunts that Kobe has recently which show selfishness and a disgraceful attitude to his team (like Kobe giving up and not shooting in the 4th quarter of I think it was the last game against the Suns in the playoffs just gone).

Iverson has always played through everything and it has been some 10 years of frustration for him, playing with a number of coaches, fairly untalented players and constant condemnation of how he acts and conducts himself. Many star players would have asked for a trade by now in search of a better winning situation
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:24 pm
#32 wrote:You're talking to somebody who believes LeBron will surpass every great player in NBA history. Every single one.

But taking what he'd average today into account doesn't mean everything. You can't completely destroy what he did in the past and disregard it; because without Oscar (and Michael, and Wilt, and Julius), the players that are in the league today (like LeBron) wouldn't exist. Oscar was a pioneer. He was one of the original triple-double little men. You have to balance what they did in their prime versus how they'd fair in today's game. Oscar averaged a triple-double in his prime... and would still put up near-LeBron numbers in today's game. That makes him good enough for the 2nd best of all-time, to me. I feel he's woefully under-rated, so that might prop him up a few places for me... but, regardless, it's still where I hold him.

It's all opinion.

You don't understand though, those numbers are adjusted purely due to pace. the only reason he had ridiculously inflated numbers was his fast paced teams. otherwise he would have averaged far less. It's hypocritical to put oscar number 2 and bump wilt down since oscar's position has changed far more than wilt's
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:10 am
I think Shaq is a somewhat unique player but not an incredibly talented player! A dominant force but not anywhere near the greatest player ever. Chamberlain was to his era what Shaq is to this one but he had more skills than Shaq did so he should be seen as better. Kareem revolutionised the game and he was seen as an unstoppable offensive force as well as defensively as well. Olajuwon and Robinson carried the center position a little further, Robinson with his athleticism and guard like skills and Olajuwon with his many post moves and semi guard like skills.

There have been so many players that were superstars and won championships as well. It took Shaq over 8 years to get his first championship, many won one well before that in their careers.

As far as Kobe, Anfernee and Wade, they all were stars on their own and had the talent to be known as great individually but they, including Wade, would not have won a championship without Shaq. Even Wade, who performed much better than Shaq, would not have won it all without Shaq. My point is, Wade was the MAIN player on his championship team, Kobe never was, it was always Shaq being the monster and by far the MVP of each one of his Lakers championship teams.

Though I reckon Lebron James will become the greatest player ever, or at least looks like he could be, Wade could be a top 5 player ever from what he has shown.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:18 am
#32 wrote:I'd think his nowadays numbers would be something like: 22 points, 8 assists, and 6 rebounds (whereas, I'd estimate Wilt - who relied more heaviliy on his physical means - would average around 15 points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block). That's a whole generation later. Oscar would still be amazingly good.


I think Wilt's numbers wouldn't change as much as Big O's... but as you said, it's all opinion.
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