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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 pm
zero3zero wrote:As far as coaches go, AJ's pretty darn high on my list. I'm not easily impressed, but that dude's a great mentor---***030***---



That's why I think he'll be one of the best ever! He really wants to lead and seems to care about his team, not just about the money!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:23 am
That's why I think he'll be one of the best ever! He really wants to lead and seems to care about his team, not just about the money!


I do so, too. Am I going to be a hall-of-fame-wannabe-coach? :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:26 am
TMC wrote:
That's why I think he'll be one of the best ever! He really wants to lead and seems to care about his team, not just about the money!


I do so, too. Am I going to be a hall-of-fame-wannabe-coach? :mrgreen:



Did you lead your team to the 2nd best record in the nba in your first full season as coach........... AND to the nba finals..........

Avery has the makings of alltime great coach material
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:40 am
Did you lead your team to the 2nd best record in the nba in your first full season as coach........... AND to the nba finals..........

Avery has the makings of alltime great coach material


I know, I was just kidding. I've already said that I like what he has done this season, but it's a bit too soon to say he's going to be this and that. Let him win some more before saying he's an alltime great coach.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:44 am
TMC wrote:
Did you lead your team to the 2nd best record in the nba in your first full season as coach........... AND to the nba finals..........

Avery has the makings of alltime great coach material


I know, I was just kidding. I've already said that I like what he has done this season, but it's a bit too soon to say he's going to be this and that. Let him win some more before saying he's an alltime great coach.



I know, I wasn't implying that he is already alltime great, it's impossible after only one and a half seasons as coach but he does have the attributes of one
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:21 am
the difference between rick adelman, hubie brown, larry brown, and pat riley on the coaching spectrum is who was on their teams. Coaches, like players, are often judged by the championships they won which is stupid because no coach (or player) wins a championship on their own. That's why it's a joke that Auerbach and Riley are alltime great coaches because other coaches took the same teams just as far
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:09 pm
Dallas won't make it back to the finals next year.

Their series with San Antonio could have gone either way and Phoenix has way too much talent (even without Amare). Besides, Dirk showed that he's not capable of leading a team to the promised land... and that makes Dallas vulnerable, now that other teams have clearly seen Dirk Nowitski is human. You can't expect Jason Terry to have as good of a post-season as he did this year, and the same goes double for Jerry Stackhouse.

Dallas lost 4 games in a row... and even though Mav fans would love to fall back on the officials, Miami clearly outplayed them. Too much Wade, no answer for Shaq inside (Damp & Diop failed), and too much hunger from Zo & GP. That was the big difference in this series; who wanted it more. Dallas wasn't hungry. They opened the series 2-0 and never won another game. Instead of coming out, guns blazing, Dirk faded away into a cloud of smoke. That sort of "leader" doesn't have what it takes to bring a team to the top (especially after his meekness has been exposed).

PHO or SA will top the West next year.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:59 pm
The Mavs are likely to get back to the finals next season because they are still a young and very talented team that has now tasted defeat in the finals! They should come back hungry, especially Nowitzki, and be even better than they were last season. The Suns and Spurs look like the only teams that can challenge them in the West
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:46 pm
They should come back hungry, especially Nowitzki, and be even better than they were last season.


With should as the operative word. I'm not sure it will happen. They will be a top team, but just a step below this year.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:32 am
#32 wrote:Dallas won't make it back to the finals next year.

Their series with San Antonio could have gone either way

agreed. games that are decided by three points or less are impossible to determine who won

and Phoenix has way too much talent (even without Amare)

I'm not sure about without amare but it sounds like he's gonna be healthy if they're shopping marion and letting amare play in the summer league

Besides, Dirk showed that he's not capable of leading a team to the promised land...

[b]for now at least. players can change.


and that makes Dallas vulnerable, now that other teams have clearly seen Dirk Nowitski is human. You can't expect Jason Terry to have as good of a post-season as he did this year, and the same goes double for Jerry Stackhouse.

and why not? stackhouse didn't have a great finals series and terry was being guarded by steve nash, tony parker, jason williams, gary payton, and whoever Memphis plays at point

Dallas lost 4 games in a row... and even though Mav fans would love to fall back on the officials, Miami clearly outplayed them.

debateable. there were three games that could have gone either way. if dirk didn't choke they would have won. if wade wasn't uberclutch they would have won. and if the zeebs didn't cheat they would have won. That's why the 2000 election analogy is so brilliant, because Dirk choked... but still got robbed

Too much Wade, no answer for Shaq inside (Damp & Diop failed)

what crack are you smoking and where can I get some of it? they totally neutralized shaq that series. shaq averaged 14 ppg against dallas. superstar

and too much hunger from Zo & GP.

Which we obviously aren't going to see next year.

That was the big difference in this series; who wanted it more. Dallas wasn't hungry.

and who knows? next year maybe they will be because they tasted defeat

They opened the series 2-0 and never won another game. Instead of coming out, guns blazing, Dirk faded away into a cloud of smoke. That sort of "leader" doesn't have what it takes to bring a team to the top (especially after his meekness has been exposed).

And people call KG a playoff choker. when has dirk ever averaged 27-17-7 in the playoffs? What a loser

PHO or SA will top the West next year.

SA has to make a trade or improve their team in some way to get past dallas. SA is old and Dallas is yound and Dallas won this year

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:58 pm
and why not? stackhouse didn't have a great finals series and terry was being guarded by steve nash, tony parker, jason williams, gary payton, and whoever Memphis plays at point

Stackhouse was Dallas' third leading scorer in the finals. He played as well as one can expect from the former explosive talent turned savy veteran. Stackhouse's game is noticably sluggish compared to what he once was (even as recent as his days on the Pistons and Wizards). We saw a lot more shooting and a lot less slashing. Smart fans are counting the days until his game becomes something like Payton; serving a role, but most valued as a bench personality due to his leadership and experience (of which, he has a lot of both).

As far as Jason Terry, you answered your own question. Jason Williams, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, and Chucky Atkins made Terry look like Dwayne Wade's equal at times... but his struggles against the likes of Bobby Jackson and Gary Payton showed that a defensively sound point is more than capable of halting Terry's asault. And with the way Dirk played in the final four games of the Heat series, shutting down Terry could very well mean the end of the Mavericks series. If there's one thing the NBA Finals taught us, it's that the Mav's go as Terry goes; not as Dirk goes.

debateable. there were three games that could have gone either way. if dirk didn't choke they would have won. if wade wasn't uberclutch they would have won. and if the zeebs didn't cheat they would have won. That's why the 2000 election analogy is so brilliant, because Dirk choked... but still got robbed

The ref's were bad in the series, yes... but their calls didn't screw one team moreso than the other. Dallas had their share of BS calls against Miami... but some people hate to acknowledge that because the idea of "Dallas getting screwed by the ref's" is effectively destroyed. Ultimately, the games were in the player's hands over 95% of the time. If Dallas was really the superior team to Miami, they would have won the series. However, as the final standings show, Dirk choked, Terry wasn't enough, and Miami was just too good for Dallas. The better team won. People can argue all they want about outside problems and/or how it got to that point (including the ref's, Stern, Cuban, ect), but the bottom line is that Dwayne Wade and his Heat came up big when they had to... and nobody can say the same for the Mav's.

what crack are you smoking and where can I get some of it? they totally neutralized shaq that series. shaq averaged 14 ppg against dallas. superstar

Shaq's low averages were tailed by the first two contests, where he barely touched the ball. Shaq only averaged 9 shot attempts in the series (which is more his teammate's fault for not getting him the ball than his own, seeing as he averaged 60% from the field in the series). Shaq didn't the get the ball; it's not like he wasn't performing. He was lacking touches. It was a problem that was preventing Miami from taking control of the series. After Shaq asserted himself as the dominant force we've all come to know him as in Game 3, he didn't stop until the series was basically locked up. Games 3, 4, and 5, Shaq averaged 17 PPG, 12 RPG, and 1.3 BPG. That's a superstar.

And people call KG a playoff choker. when has dirk ever averaged 27-17-7 in the playoffs? What a loser

Yeah. Playoffs. But in the NBA Finals? 22 points (shooting a poor, non-Dirk-like 37% from the field) and grabbing 10 rebounds (in 44 minutes) a night. Unlike Shaq (whose averages are low, due to no touches), Dirk's averages are inflated due to too many shots (how else do you average 22 points and shoot 37%???) and a ton of minutes. He had every opportunity possible. And he blew it.

SA has to make a trade or improve their team in some way to get past dallas. SA is old and Dallas is yound and Dallas won this year

SA's core of Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker (you know, the three who carry that team) aren't old at all. People who don't matter (like Finley and Van Exel) are old. The only aging person SA will miss when he's gone is Robert Horry. Other than that, SA is still the best team in the Western Conference at this time. Dallas has some heavy competition in order to keep their top seed next year.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:07 pm
#32 wrote:
and why not? stackhouse didn't have a great finals series and terry was being guarded by steve nash, tony parker, jason williams, gary payton, and whoever Memphis plays at point

Stackhouse was Dallas' third leading scorer in the finals. He played as well as one can expect from the former explosive talent turned savy veteran. Stackhouse's game is noticably sluggish compared to what he once was (even as recent as his days on the Pistons and Wizards). We saw a lot more shooting and a lot less slashing. Smart fans are counting the days until his game becomes something like Payton; serving a role, but most valued as a bench personality due to his leadership and experience (of which, he has a lot of both).

As far as Jason Terry, you answered your own question. Jason Williams, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, and Chucky Atkins made Terry look like Dwayne Wade's equal at times... but his struggles against the likes of Bobby Jackson and Gary Payton showed that a defensively sound point is more than capable of halting Terry's asault. And with the way Dirk played in the final four games of the Heat series, shutting down Terry could very well mean the end of the Mavericks series. If there's one thing the NBA Finals taught us, it's that the Mav's go as Terry goes; not as Dirk goes.

exactly, williams didn't have a good playoffs, he just had inflated stats due to bad competition

debateable. there were three games that could have gone either way. if dirk didn't choke they would have won. if wade wasn't uberclutch they would have won. and if the zeebs didn't cheat they would have won. That's why the 2000 election analogy is so brilliant, because Dirk choked... but still got robbed

The ref's were bad in the series, yes... but their calls didn't screw one team moreso than the other.

debateable but I wont get into it right now because it's impossible to prove either way

Dallas had their share of BS calls against Miami... but some people hate to acknowledge that because the idea of "Dallas getting screwed by the ref's" is effectively destroyed. Ultimately, the games were in the player's hands over 95% of the time. If Dallas was really the superior team to Miami, they would have won the series.

like gore? :roll:

However, as the final standings show, Dirk choked, Terry wasn't enough, and Miami was just too good for Dallas. The better team won. People can argue all they want about outside problems and/or how it got to that point (including the ref's, Stern, Cuban, ect), but the bottom line is that Dwayne Wade and his Heat came up big when they had to... and nobody can say the same for the Mav's.

no argument here except that it wasn't the best team winning so much as a team that happened to play not only detroit at their very worst but also dallas at their very worst

what crack are you smoking and where can I get some of it? they totally neutralized shaq that series. shaq averaged 14 ppg against dallas. superstar

Shaq's low averages were tailed by the first two contests, where he barely touched the ball. Shaq only averaged 9 shot attempts in the series (which is more his teammate's fault for not getting him the ball than his own, seeing as he averaged 60% from the field in the series). Shaq didn't the get the ball; it's not like he wasn't performing. He was lacking touches.

that's just as much his fault as anybody elses. Dallas was doing a GREAT job denying him the ball early on in the series and he couldn't get open because he wasn't in decent shape and is too old and slow

It was a problem that was preventing Miami from taking control of the series. After Shaq asserted himself as the dominant force we've all come to know him as in Game 3, he didn't stop until the series was basically locked up. Games 3, 4, and 5, Shaq averaged 17 PPG, 12 RPG, and 1.3 BPG. That's a superstar.

17 points per game is not DOMINANT. Shaq did not DOMINATE a single game the whole series. 17-12-1.3 is not a superstar either and definately not dominant

And people call KG a playoff choker. when has dirk ever averaged 27-17-7 in the playoffs? What a loser

Yeah. Playoffs. But in the NBA Finals? 22 points (shooting a poor, non-Dirk-like 37% from the field) and grabbing 10 rebounds (in 44 minutes) a night. Unlike Shaq (whose averages are low, due to no touches), Dirk's averages are inflated due to too many shots (how else do you average 22 points and shoot 37%???) and a ton of minutes. He had every opportunity possible. And he blew it.

We're not in a disagreement here, I called dirk a loser, you talked about him choking. If KG was on that mavs team it would have been over in 5 games.

SA has to make a trade or improve their team in some way to get past dallas. SA is old and Dallas is yound and Dallas won this year

SA's core of Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker (you know, the three who carry that team) aren't old at all. People who don't matter (like Finley and Van Exel) are old. The only aging person SA will miss when he's gone is Robert Horry. Other than that, SA is still the best team in the Western Conference at this time. Dallas has some heavy competition in order to keep their top seed next year.

also that core is very injury prone. the entire rest of the team basically is old. Bowen is the best defender in the league (or at least top 3) as well as a lights out 3pt shooter, he is very benificial to the team and he's 34. Their entire bench (horry, finley, vanexel) is very old. They were not as good as dallas this year, there's no reason they should be better next year. Nobody on that team besides parker is improving and most are declining. Of course they have heavy competition, a healthy Amare makes PHO the overwhelming faves. And dallas didn't have a top seed this year.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:20 pm
exactly, williams didn't have a good playoffs, he just had inflated stats due to bad competition

Williams...? I wouldn't even regard Jason Williams as a major factor in the series... so the fact that his stats may have been inflated doesn't bother me at all. Nobody's trying to say "JWilliams is the reason the Heat won!". The Heat won because of Wade/Shaq and Dirk choking.

like gore? :roll:

No, Al Gore was undeniably screwed out of the presidency. There's cold, hard proof. Anybody with a pulse whose not a Republican in flat out denial should be able to admit that.

The Mavericks were not "screwed" in any way, unless it was by their own leader. Dirk Nowitski is the main reason Dallas lost that series. But trying to make an argument that it was "the ref's fault" is an inconclusive escape by Dallas fans. As you stated above, it's impossible to prove either way. Bad calls all around; not simply on Dallas.

no argument here except that it wasn't the best team winning so much as a team that happened to play not only detroit at their very worst but also dallas at their very worst

Hate if you must. Miami's the champ right now. You can deny them props, if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the outcome.

that's just as much his fault as anybody elses. Dallas was doing a GREAT job denying him the ball early on in the series and he couldn't get open because he wasn't in decent shape and is too old and slow

Shaq didn't show his age at all this year. As I proved in a Chamberlain-O'Neal debate a while back, Shaq's numbers, per minute, are basically the same. When he gets the same amount of shots, he scores the same amount of points as in his prime. When he gets the tick, he grabs the same amount of rebounds and blocks just as many shots as he did when he was wearing a Lakers uniform. When O'Neal is in the game, he's still a huge force (just ask Dallas).

That being said, the problem with Shaq's lack of touches came from both Dallas denying him the ball (which was good work by their perimeter players on the double... not really anything great by their big men) and Miami players like Williams, Wade, and Walker refusing to get him the ball. The only guy who ran the traditional, ever-ready Shaq offense through the post was Gary Payton. Walker is a ballhog, Wade is a star looking for his shots (which is a nicer term for 'ballhog'), and Williams spent most of his time feeding Wade on the wings instead of Shaq, who clearly had his man beat several times.

Even Hubie Brown (it pains me to agree with him) called Miami's biggest problem in the first two games the fact that Shaq wasn't getting the kind of touches they needed to give him. After the first quarter in Game 1, Shaq got an absolutely ridiculous number of touches for 7 straight quarters. As Hubie pointed out, that was Miami's main flaw.

17 points per game is not DOMINANT. Shaq did not DOMINATE a single game the whole series. 17-12-1.3 is not a superstar either and definately not dominant

Name me another center who averages those numbers. Yao Ming had a career year this season (possibly, the best statistical year, all-around, for any center in the league). He averaged 22, 10, and 1.6 (and those 5 extra points are based off an insane amount of shots attempted... something Shaq doesn't get anymore). Ben Wallace couldn't hope to average 17 points. Neither could Camby. Brad Miller doesn't get those boards or blocks. Could you give me an example of other centers this year (or, hell, even a PF) who averaged those kind of numbers... And then, when you're done with that, give me (out of those names) the guys who played alongside a superstar who averaged 19 shots a game. And then tell me "it's not dominant".

also that core is very injury prone. the entire rest of the team basically is old. Bowen is the best defender in the league (or at least top 3) as well as a lights out 3pt shooter, he is very benificial to the team and he's 34. Their entire bench (horry, finley, vanexel) is very old. They were not as good as dallas this year, there's no reason they should be better next year. Nobody on that team besides parker is improving and most are declining. Of course they have heavy competition, a healthy Amare makes PHO the overwhelming faves. And dallas didn't have a top seed this year.

It's all speculation. We'll see. Seeing as this year's playoffs were such a crap shoot in the West, my money's on somebody other than Dallas making it to the NBA Finals next year.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:48 am
exactly, williams didn't have a good playoffs, he just had inflated stats due to bad competition

Williams...? I wouldn't even regard Jason Williams as a major factor in the series... so the fact that his stats may have been inflated doesn't bother me at all. Nobody's trying to say "JWilliams is the reason the Heat won!". The Heat won because of Wade/Shaq and Dirk choking.

oh yeah, I meant terry.

like gore? :roll:

No, Al Gore was undeniably screwed out of the presidency.

like the mavs

There's cold, hard proof.

watch the game tape

Anybody with a pulse whose not a Republican in flat out denial should be able to admit that.

anybody who isn't a mavs hater should be able to admit it

The Mavericks were not "screwed" in any way, unless it was by their own leader. Dirk Nowitski is the main reason Dallas lost that series. But trying to make an argument that it was "the ref's fault" is an inconclusive escape by Dallas fans. As you stated above, it's impossible to prove either way. Bad calls all around; not simply on Dallas.

yes but Miami got more of the bad calls going their way because they had wade

no argument here except that it wasn't the best team winning so much as a team that happened to play not only detroit at their very worst but also dallas at their very worst

Hate if you must. Miami's the champ right now. You can deny them props, if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the outcome.

I do deny them props because they're the worst championship team since the 70s (except maybe the 99 spurs).

that's just as much his fault as anybody elses. Dallas was doing a GREAT job denying him the ball early on in the series and he couldn't get open because he wasn't in decent shape and is too old and slow

Shaq didn't show his age at all this year. As I proved in a Chamberlain-O'Neal debate a while back, Shaq's numbers, per minute, are basically the same. When he gets the same amount of shots, he scores the same amount of points as in his prime. When he gets the tick, he grabs the same amount of rebounds and blocks just as many shots as he did when he was wearing a Lakers uniform. When O'Neal is in the game, he's still a huge force (just ask Dallas).

As I said in the other thread, O'neal doesn't get as many shot attempts because he can't get open as easily. He doesn't get as many minutes because he makes no attempt to stay in mediocre shape

That being said, the problem with Shaq's lack of touches came from both Dallas denying him the ball (which was good work by their perimeter players on the double... not really anything great by their big men) and Miami players like Williams, Wade, and Walker refusing to get him the ball. The only guy who ran the traditional, ever-ready Shaq offense through the post was Gary Payton. Walker is a ballhog, Wade is a star looking for his shots (which is a nicer term for 'ballhog'), and Williams spent most of his time feeding Wade on the wings instead of Shaq, who clearly had his man beat several times.

"clearly had his man beat". Diop was so much quicker than shaq that there were many times when shaq had diop pinned and diop got around him by the time the pass got there to deflect it.

Even Hubie Brown (it pains me to agree with him) called Miami's biggest problem in the first two games the fact that Shaq wasn't getting the kind of touches they needed to give him. After the first quarter in Game 1, Shaq got an absolutely ridiculous number of touches for 7 straight quarters. As Hubie pointed out, that was Miami's main flaw.

miami's main flaw the first two games was playing a team that wasn't in a funk. they corrected that the next four games

17 points per game is not DOMINANT. Shaq did not DOMINATE a single game the whole series. 17-12-1.3 is not a superstar either and definately not dominant

Name me another center who averages those numbers.

name me a center who is a superstar in this league this year. there have been 232 player seasons of a guy who plays center averaging 17-12 in the last 45 years. That means that over 5 centers per year on average have put up those numbers. Since there are generally only four or five centers per year who are allstars, unless you think that superstar=allstar, those are not superstar numbers.

Yao Ming had a career year this season (possibly, the best statistical year, all-around, for any center in the league). He averaged 22, 10, and 1.6 (and those 5 extra points are based off an insane amount of shots attempted... something Shaq doesn't get anymore BECAUSE HE CANT GET OPEN AND HAS DWYANE FCKING WADE ON HIS TEAM). Ben Wallace couldn't hope to average 17 points. Neither could Camby. Brad Miller doesn't get those boards or blocks.

Oh yeah, and those guys are really superstars :roll:

Could you give me an example of other centers this year (or, hell, even a PF) who averaged those kind of numbers... And then, when you're done with that, give me (out of those names) the guys who played alongside a superstar who averaged 19 shots a game. And then tell me "it's not dominant".

Dwyane wade dominated this series. If shaq were dominant he would have gotten free enough for more shots. And shaq averaged those numbers OVER A SPAN OF A FEW GAMES! Don't you think that a heck of a lot of centers "dominated" like that in a span of three games at some point this season? Marcus Camby was putting up these numbers the first 25 games of the season before he got hurt. You're calling three games of what marcus camby did for 25 games dominant. In a random span of three games of yao's season that I chose, he averaged 33-12

also that core is very injury prone. the entire rest of the team basically is old. Bowen is the best defender in the league (or at least top 3) as well as a lights out 3pt shooter, he is very benificial to the team and he's 34. Their entire bench (horry, finley, vanexel) is very old. They were not as good as dallas this year, there's no reason they should be better next year. Nobody on that team besides parker is improving and most are declining. Of course they have heavy competition, a healthy Amare makes PHO the overwhelming faves. And dallas didn't have a top seed this year.

It's all speculation. We'll see. Seeing as this year's playoffs were such a crap shoot in the West, my money's on somebody other than Dallas making it to the NBA Finals next year.

my money's on phoenix, but dallas is a close second. And I think that unless lebron gets some help there (peja?) there won't be a champion out of the (l)east
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:52 pm
like the mavs

Nope. It's your opinion; it's not a fact.

watch the game tape

I did. Anybody not named Terry or Stackhouse (specifically, Nowitski) played like complete sh*t. That's not a screw-job; it's a choke-job.

anybody who isn't a mavs hater should be able to admit it

Wrong. Only Mav's supporters are clamoring for punishment for the ref's. The rest of the league could care less. Warriors fans don't believe 'the Mav's were screwed', only Mavericks fans do.

yes but Miami got more of the bad calls going their way because they had wade

Not true. Dirk and Wade cancel each other out. The series had bad calls all around and until you present a formal study; picking apart each and every bad call, the subject will remain inconclusive and impossible to prove, so there's no use arguing it.

I do deny them props because they're the worst championship team since the 70s (except maybe the 99 spurs).

That's your opinion. A lineup featuring Dwayne Wade, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, James Posey, and Jason Williams is actually a much better team than anything Detroit or San Antonio has put together as of late. This Heat team is actually the best championship squad since the Lakers won it. But, like I said, hate if you must.

As I said in the other thread, O'neal doesn't get as many shot attempts because he can't get open as easily. He doesn't get as many minutes because he makes no attempt to stay in mediocre shape

I won't even respond to this. You are completely biased. Shaquille O'Neal dropped over 20 pounds this season, which is a helluva method to "stay in shape". If you won't even acknowledge that, there's no use beating my fist into a brick wall. You won't listen to reason regarding Shaquille O'Neal.

"clearly had his man beat". Diop was so much quicker than shaq that there were many times when shaq had diop pinned and diop got around him by the time the pass got there to deflect it.

No, the perimeter players collapsed on Shaq, cutting off the pass or forcing a kickout. Diop wasn't even an obstacle... and Dallas knew that, which is why they doubled (and tripled) Shaq like crazy the whole series. Against 2 or 3 opponents at all times, the big man still managed to put up 17, 16, and 18 point games. No other player operated the whole series in double coverage. Two defenders forced Shaq to 'only score' just under 20 points. And you STILL refuse to give him props...

miami's main flaw the first two games was playing a team that wasn't in a funk. they corrected that the next four games

Dallas played at a lukewarm level the entire series. Once Miami turned it on, there was no stopping them. Miami was beating themselves in Games 1 and 2.

name me a center who is a superstar in this league this year. there have been 232 player seasons of a guy who plays center averaging 17-12 in the last 45 years. That means that over 5 centers per year on average have put up those numbers. Since there are generally only four or five centers per year who are allstars, unless you think that superstar=allstar, those are not superstar numbers.

Okay than. Shaq put up "all-star numbers". He's the best center in the league (and he's on the downward slope of a brilliant career). Hakeem didn't put up these numbers when they moved him out of Houston. Neither did Ewing after his exodus from New York. And DRob couldn't put up Shaq's digits with a fellow superstar in the lineup (Duncan for him... Kobe, Wade, and Penny for Shaq). Face it. Shaquille O'Neal is the man. You're just plugging your ears and stomping your feet refusing it. Give the man his due props. He's carried two different teams to championship rings (and he's been there with every team he's been on). He's a franchise player; an all-out superstar, even if he isn't putting up the best fantasy numbers for a center anymore. History will tell the proper story of Shaquille O'Neal... but, like I said, your selective hearing will never allow you to truly appriciate the greatness of his accomplishments.

Dwyane wade dominated this series. If shaq were dominant he would have gotten free enough for more shots. And shaq averaged those numbers OVER A SPAN OF A FEW GAMES! Don't you think that a heck of a lot of centers "dominated" like that in a span of three games at some point this season? Marcus Camby was putting up these numbers the first 25 games of the season before he got hurt. You're calling three games of what marcus camby did for 25 games dominant. In a random span of three games of yao's season that I chose, he averaged 33-12

None of those games were pivotal contests in the NBA f'n Finals. Shaq showed up when it counted; in Games 3, 4, and 5. By Game 6, Miami had it in the back and he sat out a good amount of time. Again, continue to hate if it makes you feel better. Say whatever you gotta say to convince yourself that Shaq isn't a franchise player.

my money's on phoenix, but dallas is a close second. And I think that unless lebron gets some help there (peja?) there won't be a champion out of the (l)east

I can agree with this (not the "close second" part, but everything else). But with the way the NBA goes these days, you can't really say until halfway through the year...
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