Orlando-Warriors Trade...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:51 pm
But what a drop-off! Genius move by the upper management in Orlando. First, they take Dwight Howard above the tempting Emeka, then they dish away Steve Francis for a few projects, and now they have a 40 million dollar salary dump in the next 2 seasons... very few teams think about the future as well as this Orlando regime is. They've really been screwed over since the departure or Shaq, but this organization looks to be getting on their feet... and I think it's safe to say they'll probably be contenders in the next 5 seasons or so.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:39 am
I don't really agree. They started to build this team since McGrady forced his own trade, and they've been pretty bad at (almost) everything.

First they traded T-Mac for Francis, Mobley and Cato, while they had the chance to do it for players like Artest or Shawn Marion (and I'm sure there were other offers we haven't heard about). Terrible move.

Next, they had a brilliant draft, taking Dwight Howard and trading on draft day for Jameer Nelson (btw, this guy should be on the poll for the next big pg. In fact, I give him my vote after Christ Paul). They lost a first round pick this year (they had two), but it was well worthy.

After that draft, they overpayed for a journeyman (Keyon Dooling) and a streaky scorer (Turkoglu), traded Gooden and Varejao to Cleveland for Tony Battie, wasted a draft pick in Fran Vazquez, traded Mobley for Christie (who they they bought out after just half season), traded Francis to New York for an expirer and Ariza and sent Cato and their 2008 draft pick to Detroit for Milicic and Arroyo.

So, essentially, they traded T-Mac for cap space. And it wasn't on purpose.

And their coaches have been equally bad (Johnny Davis, Chris Jent, now Brian Hill, who has proven he can only win with a prime Shaq and Penny on the lineup).

In my opinion, it has been one of the worst front offices of the NBA, and that's the reason they're starting to rebuild again. At least they did the right thing drafting Howard...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:27 am
The Magic are in great position once the contracts expire but they have done quite bad the last few seasons. They should throw a truck load of money at Bosh in a couple of seasons and attract him by using Howard as the reason why he could have success. They can even try going for KG now by offering Vasquez and 3 other players.

They must use that money to get better because they have been awful for so long
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:47 am
TMC wrote:So, essentially, they traded T-Mac for cap space. And it wasn't on purpose.

Well, it wasn't on purpose at first... but, overtime, it became clear that they needed to throw everything out the window and start over.

McGrady is one of those players that can't take a team to a championship. I hold him in the same regard as Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson. All of their first instincts are to create for themselves... and it's hard for fans to find fault in that, since it usually creates spectacular results (at least, for the players themselves). But, in fact, very few teams have gone all the way with players like that. Look at Dominique Wilkins and Bernard King (two prime examples). They were spectacular players; hall of fame worthy, incredible scorers, and often made highlight-worthy plays. But, in the end, they could never get their teams to the top of the mountain. McGrady will be something like Bernard King when he retires; of course, old timers will remember him... informed fans will have heard of him... but he won't transcend time the way Jordan, Shaq, and Magic have.

As far as Francis goes, I think the Magic were simply trying to pair their future all-star (Dwight Howard) with a superstar point guard... that way, he could be groomed by one of the game's premiere playmakers and develop into one of the league's most feared post threats (Howard has the potential). Many post players have grown into superstars when groomed by the right point; look at Karl Malone (who started under John Stockton), Kenyon Martin (whose making millions, thanks to Jason Kidd), Kevin Garnett (who really expanded as a player once Marbury came into the picture), or Amare Stoudemire (who was MVP-worthy, thanks to Steve Nash). NBA posts are at their bests when paired with a superb point (and it was smart of Orlando to realize this, seeing as their future is with Howard). Unfortunately, the only point guard The Magic could swing was Steve Francis (who was stirring up all kinds of drama in Houston). They pulled the trigger a bit prematurely (I'm sure there was something of a race for Francis) and they soon realized that Francis wasn't the right fit for Howard. Firstly, he'd already failed to take Yao Ming to the next level in Houston (the first attempt the league gave Francis at improving a post player). Than, when you look past that, you realize that (even though Steve puts up a good amount of assists in a night), he's really a shoot-first point guard (rendering any quick development of Howard impossible). At last, Orlando realized that Francis couldn't shoot Howard's stock through the roof (and, on top of that, they were now swallowing all of the drama that he had previously started in Houston). The only logical thing to do was trade him... and, at this point, I think the team reconciled themself to the fact that they were going to start over from the ground up (building around Howard).

With Francis' trade value at an all-time low, they dished him away for Penny Hardaway's expiring contract (a genius move to pair with their 16 million dollar bonus from Grant Hill's contract the following season). Between those two players, that's over 30 million dollars. This gives any free agent on the market (during the summer of 2007) plenty of incentive to go hang out at Universal Studios all year long. And, if the Magic are truly trying to turn Dwight Howard into the next Kevin Garnett, they'll be gunning for a point guard come free agency (and 2007's class includes Mike Bibby, TJ Ford, and Chauncey Billips).

Now, out of those 3 point guards, Mike Bibby looks the most attractive... and I'll tell you why.

Chauncey Billips is indeed playing the best basketball of his life, but Orlando already gave him a chance (and he played mediocre). In fact, 4 other teams have tried Chauncey and the only place he's ever had success was in Detroit (making teams a little edgy about signing him). He'll resign to preserve his higher play (seeing as he wouldn't be nearly as good anywhere else in a different system).

TJ Ford is attractive, but unproven. The Magic's problem with Francis was that he couldn't help Howard improve... and that's something they'll be looking for when signing a free agent point guard. He's got the skills, but he has yet to make anything out of (either) Jamaal Magloire or Andrew Bogut (two potential-packed players). Ford will probably be Orlando's 2nd choice.

Mike Bibby will be persued aggressively by Orlando. First of all, it was clear that he was unhappy in Sacramento before the Artest trade. He was fed up with the always-changing, dramatic atmosphere... and it was clear that he was tired of carrying a team on his back. Bibby would much prefer to be a distributor than a 20 ppg scorer. The untrained eye might suggest that Artest's trade has solved his issues, but one only need look at Artest's file to see where this little experiment is going. Next season, when Artest blows up or makes a controversial comment in an interview and the league suspends him for 10 games, Bibby will wake up and smell the coffee. It's also apparent that Artest will be leaving Sacramento come free agency in 2008 (the very next season). Bibby will take this into consideration and come to the rightful conclusion that he must abandon ship on this failed Kings experiment of the 2000's. Bibby will then take his business to the free agent market, where Orlando will just recently have released Grant Hill's paycheck (giving them 30 million to throw around). Therefore, they can afford to overpay for Bibby on a 5 year deal (which would be smart, seeing as he'll turn Howard into a beast). An Orlando Magic with a fully panned out Darko, a newly motivated Mike Bibby, and a monster unleashed in Dwight Howard (not to mention Jameer Nelson, Carlos Arroyo, and Hedo Turkoglu) would be pretty dangerous in a Shaq-less Southeast Division (where Atlanta and Charlotte are already below them). Dwight Howard might not impress you now, but with a point guard like Mike Bibby, he'd average 20+, 14, and 2. Those are scary numbers, and this kid's definately got the tools to get them (provided the right leadership from the right point guard).

It sounds like a helluva future plan to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:59 am
:dontknow: I'm not even sure they have a plan. I'm sure their plan is "Well, we have a stud in Dwight Howard. Lets build around him." But that's all. I don't think they have a plan. They've even changed GMs since drafting Howard.

They just seem to want to have cap space, just in case...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:24 am
Well... that's a good thing to have. Especially if you're looking for a point guard in the near future that will expand Howard to his full potential.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:42 pm
They seem to be set on Jameer Nelson being their future PG and he has been quite good so far in his young career.

Maybe the Magic will be smart enough to attract productive players. They can't sign too many guys to mammoth contracts because they will have to resign Howard and Nelson in a couple of years but they do need to take the wallet out or they will never have enough guns to get anywhere.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:40 pm
try this:

GOLDEN STATE

Outgoing
Derek Fisher
6-1 PG from Arkansas-Little Rock
13.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 4.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Mickael Pietrus
6-6 SG from France (Foreign)
9.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 22.7 minutes
Incoming
Keyon Dooling
6-3 PG from Missouri
9.5 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.2 apg in 22.7 minutes
Pat Garrity
6-9 SF from Notre Dame
5.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.7 apg in 16.7 minutes
11th Overall Pick in 2006 Draft
Change in team outlook: -8.0 ppg, -2.2 rpg, and -2.3 apg.

ORLANDO

Outgoing
Keyon Dooling
6-3 PG from Missouri
9.5 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.2 apg in 22.7 minutes
Pat Garrity
6-9 SF from Notre Dame
5.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.7 apg in 16.7 minutes
11th Overall Pick in 2006 Draft
Incoming
Derek Fisher
6-1 PG from Arkansas-Little Rock
13.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 4.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Mickael Pietrus
6-6 SG from France (Foreign)
9.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 22.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: +8.0 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and +2.3 apg.

Why for GS
Pietrus is blocked for GS, Fisher plays better as an undersized off guard then a point guard. Garrity comes off the books after next season, Dooling would provide scoring off the bench at the PG spot but is more of a dribble penetrator then Fisher, plus nicer contract. With the 11th pick, they can draft both a SF and a post defender.

Why for ORL
Pietrus gives them a great SG to play off of Nelson/Howard. Can sign him to a reasonable contract at the end of the year as he has yet to get significant playing time. Fisher gives them veteran presence off the bench and an excellent outside shooter(was averaging over 50% from 3P until December 2, over 60 three pointers). Both players give the Magic more range for a kickout since their only long range shooter ATM is Nelson.
Dooling is expendable with Arroyo on the team and Garrity doesnt get any PT with Ariza, Turk, and Hill all on the team.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:27 pm
Nothing really significant that would help the team at all
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:51 pm
I like it cuz of the draft pick and Dooling ( he's not that great but he's decent ). It would be a trade that would work in the long run, but I doubt Orl would it. They definately need their pick this year---***030***---

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:09 pm
Not enough salary leaving. I think Mullin should organize a salary dump and who cares what we get back as long as it's off the books after next season. We are at that point now, and I think we were there at the trade deadline too.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:13 pm
Foyle hurts so much... SOOOOOOO MUCH !
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:11 am
Mullin's not going to do a salary dump, if he even semi-valued cap space he wouldnt have signed the last, I dunno, 50 contracts he's signed(by that I mean all of them.)

Its what we should do, but there's no way its what we are going to do. Foyle/Dunleavy/Baron all have negative value at this point, none are leaving. The only big contract I see going is Fish and even then I dont think we are going to get anything for him other than a lateral move with slightly less salary(IE dooling)

Orlando has won 8 straight and is trying to sneak into the playoffs, all they need is a SG and pietrus gives them a better option then any player on the board at 11. You think JJ Redick/Mardy Collins have more potential then Pietrus?

In terms of salary dumps that dont actually look like salary dumps this is a good one, 8.3 out, 6 in, both coming off the books before Biedrins/Diogu/Baron/Ellis/Taft (whoever's good by then) need extensions. Its not like Mullin's going to sign FA from other teams, so is there any reason to have cap space?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:28 am
thinkingwarriors wrote:Not enough salary leaving. I think Mullin should organize a salary dump and who cares what we get back as long as it's off the books after next season. We are at that point now, and I think we were there at the trade deadline too.



List the players you would have traded
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:08 am
I hate to say it but look at the thread you're posting on.

I think there should be no qualms about trading Fisher (Monta Ellis) or Murphy (Ike Diogu). I want to see Zarko get time behind Diogu, he is a nice change of pace to what Diogu brings and Ellis should be getting plenty of time behind Baron. That alone will free up 14-15 mil of contract.

The dark cloud of course is J-Rich. I've said many times that J-Rich might be the ticket to trading all these other players but there is another aspect. Quality guard/small forward types are the easiest pieces to find. Look at the last two NBA champs. They had Rip Hamilton and Manu Ginobili. Nice players but certainly not the best in the league at their position.

If we make this trade that is this thread's topic and draft Brandon Roy than we have what we need to contend immediately. I'll make it even sweeter for Orlando since they like Darko so much:

Golden State gives: J-Rich, Murphy, Fisher

Orlando gives: Grant Hill, Hedo Turkoglu, Pat Garrity

They choose who they want to give up, Turkoglu or Darko.
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