Game Thread: Warriors @ Los Angeles Clippers 2012-11-03

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:53 pm
and i think the balls of brandon rush just got shared with each and every warrior tonight - haven't seen them play with such toughness in years.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:08 am
Game notes:

- David Lee sure has upped his physical intensity this year. I can't ever remember a game where he was seemingly in foul trouble the whole time. Even shackled with zebras giving Griffin every flop call, Lee managed to lead the team with 12 boards in under 30 minutes. Anybody still believe he isn't an elite rebounder?

- Jarrett Jack seemed to be the team's spark plug - besides Carl Landry - tonight. Isolated Crawford for easy points, dished out a team-leading 7 assists, with 16 points and 6 boards. Strange that he tied for last on the team with a -3 plus-minus...

- Is anybody else impressed that we won the rebounding battle convincingly (48-33) without Bogut...? Against a squad that ranked 6th in differential last year (+1.8... Golden State was last at -6.6, for the curious). That's hugely important in the victory tonight.

- Chipping in for the injured Rush tonight was RJ with a team-high +9, 2 steals, 9 points... And the rookie, Harrison Barnes, with 10 points on 4-for-6, showing what can be described as the best ball of his professional life. Loved Jim's line when he said, "I dunno if Harrison Barnes realizes how good he is." The kid took Caron to school a couple times... It'd be nice to see him slash like that more often.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:11 am
32 wrote:Game notes:

- David Lee sure has upped his physical intensity this year. I can't ever remember a game where he was seemingly in foul trouble the whole time. Even shackled with zebras giving Griffin every flop call, Lee managed to lead the team with 12 boards in under 30 minutes. Anybody still believe he isn't an elite rebounder?

- Jarrett Jack seemed to be the team's spark plug - besides Carl Landry - tonight. Isolated Crawford for easy points, dished out a team-leading 7 assists, with 16 points and 6 boards. Strange that he tied for last on the team with a -3 plus-minus...

- Is anybody else impressed that we won the rebounding battle convincingly (48-33) without Bogut...? Against a squad that ranked 6th in differential last year (+1.8... Golden State was last at -6.6, for the curious). That's hugely important in the victory tonight.

- Chipping in for the injured Rush tonight was RJ with a team-high +9, 2 steals, 9 points... And the rookie, Harrison Barnes, with 10 points on 4-for-6, showing what can be described as the best ball of his professional life. Loved Jim's line when he said, "I dunno if Harrison Barnes realizes how good he is." The kid took Caron to school a couple times... It'd be nice to see him slash like that more often.


+/- is flawed because it is more of the line up you are playing with then actual individual play. You should never use it to check just one player. Just specific rotations vs specific rotations.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:46 am
Every advanced stat is flawed.

Guys like Bogut and Udoh have shown individual value consistently through +/-. It's not the be-all-end-all, but no stat should be. Numbers never tell the whole story and anybody saying otherwise is selling something.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:15 am
32 wrote:Every advanced stat is flawed.

Guys like Bogut and Udoh have shown individual value consistently through +/-. It's not the be-all-end-all, but no stat should be. Numbers never tell the whole story and anybody saying otherwise is selling something.


It's why you should not use advanced stats in a misleading way. It would be like using WAR in baseball to say one player is better than the other, but failing to mention the other player missed 100 games. WAR being a measure of worth, which is accumulative. Just got to apply it appropriately. +/- should be used for rotations. Another way is to check that rotations points per 100 possessions.

Using a bunch of stats paint a good picture. Basketball is light years behind what it could be, but the advanced stats are more accurate representation than the per game stats. It's nice to know someone got 12 rebounds, but I prefer that they got 10.6 percent of the rebounds. It's the same data, but I think the percent is more accurate.


I do wish basketball would catch up with baseball though in terms of accuracy because baseball has an extremely low margin of error involved with their saber stats. Basketball is getting better, though.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:30 am
That's just it.

Basketball is best explained through an equal share of traditional stats, advanced stats, and summarizing rhetoric. There remains no true way to explain the performance of a basketball player with numbers alone.

As far as the rebounds, it's tomato-tomahto. Saying Lee only grabbed 10.6 percent of the glass is kind of dismissive because it doesn't mention that he was limited to 29 minutes. I think understanding that he got 12 boards in less than 30 minutes is more representative of how he actually played, but if percentage works for you, than hey go nuts.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:42 am
lol It was not a reference to Lee, I am sure his percentage was much higher. The percentage is based on all the rebounds you could have gotten.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:50 am
Oh haha fsho then
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:06 pm
Most statistics are not really a good way of judging a game and a team or player's performance. They do not take into account the competition. Plus minus can be especially misleading. It does not take into account the players on the court with that player, either on his team, or the other team. Nor does any statistic take into account the circumstances of the game....foul situation....score.....time/time remaining....match ups.....strategies....

Stats keep a record of specific plays, so they're considered a way of measuring what a team or player may be doing well or not well. But without taking into account the competition (fg percentage vs specific defensive lineup/defender, for example), they will always be at least somewhat misleading.

Basketball is just like any other game, really. The game is won by breaking down and exploiting the other team's weaknesses, or "weakest links", on both ends of the floor. And highlighting and containing the opponent's "strengths". Seeing and recognizing the advantages gained and the strategy implemented to gain them is what gives us a true understanding.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:37 pm
lol There are stats for specific match ups too. Even then, stats are derived, you know, from the actual match ups. That's a horrible reason to not use to stats.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:56 pm
I believe the truth lies somewhere between both you gentlemen.

In our brief acquaintmanship, I have gathered that Blackfoot is a big believer in numbers... Much moreso than I am, although I certainly don't dismiss them to the degree that J1000's post seemed to. As I said above, you gotta have traditional stats, you gotta have advanced stats, and about 40% of one's game literally just needs to be explained with words and not numbers. The clearest picture is the one with the most mediums.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:57 pm
I believe this middle only exists because of how the stats are light years behind where they could be. Eventually, the middle will go more to the side of the advanced stats side. And that is because every human action is quantifiable.

I know this sounds like a broken record, but as soon as basketball reaches the point baseball has there is going to be no reason to use traditional stats.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:19 am
I'm pulling this completely out of my ass, Blackfoot, but are you under 25?

I'm just trying to gather data on how much of this topic is an age issue. Pretty much all of my young homies are new age stat guys.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:21 pm
You'd be right.

I am 18. And you are right on your assumption, there are more young dudes more willing to accept new ideas because they are, well young. Basically every new thing that is supposed to be universal will be more used by younger dudes than older dudes despite the design being for everyone.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:50 pm
Here's a good stat to follow by: watch the game.
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