Importance of a superstar

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:54 pm
I'm sitting here and I'm trying to think of a position in the NBA that is easy/easier to defend than another. I can't think of one. Give me an example, please?

I'm just gonna go ahead and say no one here knows for sure whether or not Gay plays defense because who the hell covers Grizzlies basketball outside of Warriors games and this year's playoffs (he was injured last year)? I admit that my impression of him stems from defensive ratings + what I hear (or don't hear) from espn, yahoo, twitter, and other sports outlets so my opinion might not mean much.

Everyone here knows SJack was streaky as fuk. I appreciate what he has done here, but everyone in the NBA has their bad days. I highly doubt Gay was the reason he had that bad game, and even if he was I wouldn't put much weight into someone who shuts down Jackson. Even in his prime.

Now if we had a priority list, scoring would not be high on the list. It might not even make it to the middle of the list. It's probably at the bottom and that's the only area where I see Gay contributing. Would I make that trade if it meant AB+RJ+#7? Hell yeah I would; In a heart beat. I would, however, see if there was a good/elite wing defender that we could swap AB+RJ with first.

No one is saying Gay is a bad player. He has a lot of athleticism, talent, and scoring abilities but that's not what we need. If we were Boston or Chicago it would make a lot more sense because they need more scoring. A team like us, we need more defense, rebounding, depth, and leadership. Period.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:20 pm
After dealing away Monta Ellis' 22 buckets per for a career 13-point per game center, you don't think the Warriors could use a go-to scorer? You're ready to put the fate of this squad in Klay Thompson's hands? Cause, if Curry is running point, who else is going to be their default offensive option? You say we don't need scoring as if we finished in the top 10 in team PPG, when in reality we finished 11th, 12th in offensive efficency, and our average % from the floor was 19th in the league.

You're telling me that after acquiring Bogut, we STILL should be looking for defense instead of someone who can lead this offense in crucial moments? Even with McGuire able to be that defensive wing, should we really need an extra stopper on the floor?

I don't buy it. The fact that Rudy Gay is a 20 PPG scorer doesn't make him less attractive to me, and regarding the rest of his numbers, the proof is in the pudding. His #'s compared to our starting 3 from last year:

RUDY GAY

19.0 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.4 APG
1.5 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 2.5 T/OPG
45.5% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 79.1% FT
In 37:17 MPG

DORELL WRIGHT

10.3 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 1.5 APG
1.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 0.8 T/OPG,
42.2% FG, 36.0% 3PT, 81.6% FT
In 27:00 MPG

He outshot Wright from the floor by 3.3%... taking double the shots (16.4 attempts vs 8.6)!

Like I said, how this isn't an automatic yes is beyond me...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:45 pm
I really hope the team doesn't go for Gay, because as I said earlier, it would salary strap the team for as long as his contract exists. It would likely mean that either or both Curry and Klay would end up leaving in a few years and maybe even one or both of Lee and Bogut. Two of the current top four players here would likely leave when their contracts are over.

The team should improve defensively with Bogut, but one man isn't enough. The team needs at least another very good defensive player, I think another two, as you need at least three of your five starting players able to defend well to be a real contender. Scoring is alright, always has been here, we don't need anymore help there. With Curry, Klay and Lee able to score at least 15pts a game each each, Bogut likely to score that himself as well, the team doesn't need a very good scorer to add to them, unless that player adds in other areas as well. Gay simply does not and since he doesn't even score twenty a game, he is no great scorer either.

Focus has got to be on getting a very good SF, that is still true, but not while having to pay so much salary every year, thus hindering other moves that could be made and other contracts that will need to be signed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:57 am
Migya, you are repeating that Gay is not a 20 PPG guy, but you do realize that if he scored 66 more points throughout the whole season, he would have been? He was close to it, and it wasn't like he can't put up those numbers, but that he took less shots, cause they play team ball at Memphis and a lot of players take some shots. He was above 45% from the field, that's quite good.

And 8th, even if he was bad on D back then, that was years ago...it shows that guy is putting some effort in his weaknesses. I said that his defense isn't shown in his numbers, but I checked that now, and you can see that he is better there even in statistics. 1.5 steal per game and almost one block per game. And he is contesting...that itself tells you that he is good in all parts of the defensive game, being close to his player, contesting shots (blocking them), and having fast hands for steals.

I think that you guys sometimes just take a player as what he was when you first saw him, when he entered the league. Gay improved quite a bit. If Jamaal Crawford still doesn't want to play any defense, or doesn't know how, it doesn't mean that other players don't have will to improve.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:48 am
32 wrote:After dealing away Monta Ellis' 22 buckets per for a career 13-point per game center, you don't think the Warriors could use a go-to scorer? You're ready to put the fate of this squad in Klay Thompson's hands? Cause, if Curry is running point, who else is going to be their default offensive option? You say we don't need scoring as if we finished in the top 10 in team PPG, when in reality we finished 11th, 12th in offensive efficency, and our average % from the floor was 19th in the league.

You're telling me that after acquiring Bogut, we STILL should be looking for defense instead of someone who can lead this offense in crucial moments? Even with McGuire able to be that defensive wing, should we really need an extra stopper on the floor?

I don't buy it. The fact that Rudy Gay is a 20 PPG scorer doesn't make him less attractive to me, and regarding the rest of his numbers, the proof is in the pudding. His #'s compared to our starting 3 from last year:

RUDY GAY

19.0 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.4 APG
1.5 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 2.5 T/OPG
45.5% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 79.1% FT
In 37:17 MPG

DORELL WRIGHT

10.3 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 1.5 APG
1.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 0.8 T/OPG,
42.2% FG, 36.0% 3PT, 81.6% FT
In 27:00 MPG

He outshot Wright from the floor by 3.3%... taking double the shots (16.4 attempts vs 8.6)!

Like I said, how this isn't an automatic yes is beyond me...


Being 11th and 12th in offensive efficiency is enough. Why do we need to be propelled into the top 10 in offensive efficiency? Sounds great, but it's not necessary. Had we been in the bottom half or bottom quarter it would be more of a concern, but that isn't the case. We can score just fine.

New York acquired Tyson Chandler who won DPLY but that doesn't mean their defense couldn't use some upgrading, right? One person can only go so far in improving a team defensively. I think the more defensive minded players we have on the team the more it'll change the defensive culture. Scoring wins games, defense wins championships. And I'm not even saying we're gonna win the ship, but it'll definitely be a step in the right direction.

And why are you comparing Wright to Gay? No one is saying that he wouldn't be an upgrade over Wright or Jefferson. I'm just expressing my want for more defensive players. And like I said before, I would make the trade to acquire Gay if all it costed us was AB +RJ +#7, but I'd see if we can acquire someone that is more defensive minded first. If this happened tomorrow I wouldn't bitch about it. I'd be excited. Just not as excited as if we were to get someone like iggy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:16 am
I am saying what I see from Gay now. He is on a team that had their best player, ZRandolph, injured most of the season, so he had the chance to shoot whenever he basically wanted to and still he was no great scorer, just a good one, like Lee is for us.

I think it is pretty clear in at least one sense - Getting Gay will mean the team will be paying superstar salary for a player that is allstar caliber, so overpaying by alot. It also means the FO will not be able to pay high contracts to anyone else, as they'll have in two years, Gay at 17.9 million, Lee at 13.9 million and Bogut out of contract with that year just ending having been 14.2 million. that's 44 million on three players. Try resigning Curry to what he should be worth if he played up to 75% of his potential, which should be at least 10 million a year and then two years later try paying Klay at least 9 million which is what we hope he is worth at that stage. Now add the backups if you can. Is the 70 million dollar team that then exists a top 5 one at least, because that total salary equates to one.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:47 am
8th ave wrote:
32 wrote:After dealing away Monta Ellis' 22 buckets per for a career 13-point per game center, you don't think the Warriors could use a go-to scorer? You're ready to put the fate of this squad in Klay Thompson's hands? Cause, if Curry is running point, who else is going to be their default offensive option? You say we don't need scoring as if we finished in the top 10 in team PPG, when in reality we finished 11th, 12th in offensive efficency, and our average % from the floor was 19th in the league.

You're telling me that after acquiring Bogut, we STILL should be looking for defense instead of someone who can lead this offense in crucial moments? Even with McGuire able to be that defensive wing, should we really need an extra stopper on the floor?

I don't buy it. The fact that Rudy Gay is a 20 PPG scorer doesn't make him less attractive to me, and regarding the rest of his numbers, the proof is in the pudding. His #'s compared to our starting 3 from last year:

RUDY GAY

19.0 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.4 APG
1.5 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 2.5 T/OPG
45.5% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 79.1% FT
In 37:17 MPG

DORELL WRIGHT

10.3 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 1.5 APG
1.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 0.8 T/OPG,
42.2% FG, 36.0% 3PT, 81.6% FT
In 27:00 MPG

He outshot Wright from the floor by 3.3%... taking double the shots (16.4 attempts vs 8.6)!

Like I said, how this isn't an automatic yes is beyond me...


Being 11th and 12th in offensive efficiency is enough. Why do we need to be propelled into the top 10 in offensive efficiency? Sounds great, but it's not necessary. Had we been in the bottom half or bottom quarter it would be more of a concern, but that isn't the case. We can score just fine.

New York acquired Tyson Chandler who won DPLY but that doesn't mean their defense couldn't use some upgrading, right? One person can only go so far in improving a team defensively. I think the more defensive minded players we have on the team the more it'll change the defensive culture. Scoring wins games, defense wins championships. And I'm not even saying we're gonna win the ship, but it'll definitely be a step in the right direction.

And why are you comparing Wright to Gay? No one is saying that he wouldn't be an upgrade over Wright or Jefferson. I'm just expressing my want for more defensive players. And like I said before, I would make the trade to acquire Gay if all it costed us was AB +RJ +#7, but I'd see if we can acquire someone that is more defensive minded first. If this happened tomorrow I wouldn't bitch about it. I'd be excited. Just not as excited as if we were to get someone like iggy.

No doubt, Iggy would be a huge upgrade too.

It's skittles, bro. Different flavors, all good. So long as Iguodala, Gay, Kidd, Andre Miller, or Danny Granger make their way here, I'm stoked any way you slice it. I must have misunderstood; i thought you were anti-Rudy earlier and it sounds like you'd just prefer Iggy - which is kosh as well. As long as we get somebody, I'm happy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:33 am
Pretty much the same sentiment here. And I thought some were against Gay as well. It's just that you like someone else better, which is fine. I'd be happy with either Granger, Iguodala or Gay.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:27 am
Totally.

Cause there's no way of denying the significance of a player like Gay. As with Iguodala, it'd be a huge upgrade over what we currently have.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:11 pm
Hum.... the value of Gay is not on offense. He is a much better defender then what you guys are saying.... that or I am not watching the same Rudy Gay you are. True, I have only watched him play since he returned from the Olympic Gold medal team which he played in with Curry. Since then everytime I seen him play he plays hard, specially on defense. The reason I like and value him so much is that he is an eliete socrer, and he has the athletic ability and speed to gaurd the best scorers in the NBA: Lebron and Durant.

If warriors are going to be a good team defensively, they need a SF who can gaurd their position wihtout double team. And Gay is, in my opinion, the one of the few SFs out there that can gaurd one on one vs Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Granger, and the other eliete SFs out there. Becuase of his size, speed and athletism. So maybe why we disagree is because of how we view is defensive capabilities. However, I don't think that they call the Memphisis home court the "grind house", for their lax defense.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, and I agree that getting Iggy or any of the previously mentioned SFs would be gravy too!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:46 pm
GSW Hoops Fan wrote:Hum.... the value of Gay is not on offense. He is a much better defender then what you guys are saying.... that or I am not watching the same Rudy Gay you are. True, I have only watched him play since he returned from the Olympic Gold medal team which he played in with Curry. Since then everytime I seen him play he plays hard, specially on defense. The reason I like and value him so much is that he is an eliete socrer, and he has the athletic ability and speed to gaurd the best scorers in the NBA: Lebron and Durant.

If warriors are going to be a good team defensively, they need a SF who can gaurd their position wihtout double team. And Gay is, in my opinion, the one of the few SFs out there that can gaurd one on one vs Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Granger, and the other eliete SFs out there. Becuase of his size, speed and athletism. So maybe why we disagree is because of how we view is defensive capabilities. However, I don't think that they call the Memphisis home court the "grind house", for their lax defense.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, and I agree that getting Iggy or any of the previously mentioned SFs would be gravy too!

QFT, I thought I was the only one who had seen Rudy lock multiple people up. You must have League Pass too, huh. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:24 pm
Take the whole picture into context guys, the money Gay makes destroys the team within three years. There are many far better options.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:39 am
migya wrote:Take the whole picture into context guys, the money Gay makes destroys the team within three years. There are many far better options.


Not sure I agree. It doesn't destroy the team within 3 years, it locks up our starting for two more years. At the end of this year, Curry becomes a restricted free agent. Depending on how he does this year will determine what he gets paid. If he doesn't have a solid bounce back year, he isn't going to make bank. Klay is on Rookie contract until 2015.... so he is locked up. Gay is locked up to 2015 too. D Lee is locked up to 2016. Bogut is locked up for 2 more years. He needs to show he can still play and be healthy before getting any contract extention.

So, for this year our salary would remain the same if you moved D. Wright, Jefferson and the #7 pick for Gay. No difference, we would still need to use mid level to sign anyone. We could still sign Rush because he is RFA. Year after that, instead of losing D. Wright off the books, his money is invested in Gay, so... the difference is 4.5 million. That is the year we would need to resing Curry. So, Luxury for sure.

The year after that though, you have Biedrins and Bogut coming off the books. You could resing Bogut for the same or less depending how he does, and the 9 million from Biedrins would help us get out of Luxury tax, depending on the contract Curry gets (if he even gets one).
So, all in all, it hampers our ability to aquire any new talent with anything other the the MLE, but locks up a starting 5 that can compete.
So, it destorys our salary cap, which we didn't have much of anyway, but it gives us a solid starting 5. I wouldn't expect to pay bench much more then MLE anyways, so.... not worried about it.

If you are worried about not having money for Curry, Bogut and Klay, well Beidrins and Bogut both expire after 2 years, can giving room to resign bogut and Curry. Gay's contract expires the same year Klay's rookie contract is over, so you can get a better deal for Gay, giving some room to resign Klay, if that is what you wanted. Lee's contract would be one year after that, which you could reneogiate to something more reasonable, assuming Lee is someone they still want around. Also, since these are expiring contracts at the time you are looking to resign your core guys, it should be hard to get rid of them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:56 am
:D

Plus, miggy, why are you pro-Iguodala if you believe Rudy Gay's money would destroy the team? They'll both make $15 million next year, why would one destroy the team and the other fit perfectly?

And, as Hoops Fan pointed out, his incremental increase won't occur til massive cash is coming off the books. Plus, Lacob has repeatedly said that money will not be a problem with this team. Rudy Gay's contract is very normal for a top player at the SF position. Again, he doesn't get as much glitter as other players in larger markets that are repeatedly covered more often, but if you've seen him play quasi-regularly on League Pass, he doesn't get outplayed at his spot very often. It's a real rarity. Had he spent his career on the Lakers, people would regard him as a top 5 SF.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:34 pm
I agree with the anti rudy gay i feel like he'll destroy the tier level of all our players. let me explain myself all of our players arent at the elite level but they are all good in their own sense. Curry without monta hogging the ball could put up 20 points klay could put up 12-15 Lee is the usual 18 and 10 and maybe more and Bogut can score when need be. The only thing missing from this lineup is someone who can guard that opposing perimeter player and give him a hard time and Gay can do that but do we really wanna take his contract? and risk destroying this lineup in 2-3 years? I say we target teams in rebuilding mode and tease them with our number 7 pick. A team like portland who is shopping Batum. Hes the perfect player in this system in my opinion. He can guard 1-3 he can create his own shot he can knock down the 3pt shot at an elite rate and why wouldnt portland want 3 lottery picks in a star studded draft?

Order of importance:
1) Move up for MKG
2) or Trade for Batum
3) or Move down for Perry Jones and backup PG
4) Sign back up big ( reggie evans)
5) Make trade for iggy

I am not down with granger cus hes monta ellis but in a SFs body and part of my post is from Curry being my favorite player. I dont want him sharing the ball with Rudy and not unleashing his full potential i want the kid to figure things out and be a leader
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