Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:46 am
I just thought about having a little discussion about Lebron James, who just had another awesome showing, this time in ECF against the Celts.

Lebron has now played nine seasons, likely just over half his career, and over 700 games. He has been phenominal, perhaps unlike any other player since Michael Jordan, perhaps even better in his first nine years. With regular season career averages of -
39mins53secs, 27.6pts, 48.3FG%, 1.3(3PTS made), 33.1(3PTFG%), 74.6FT%, 7.2rebs, 6.9asts, 3.3TOs, 1.7stls, 0.8blks

The question here is: Where do you rank Lebron James alltime among all players? He hasn't finished his career, but with what he's done so far, where do you rank him?
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migya make the ring fall on ya
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:47 pm
That's a hard question to answer. I have him as one of the best SF ever.
Just because of his size and strength and his dominance in the game. I mean, he took clevland and put that team on his shoulders for 7 straight years. But he never has had enough to win it all. MJ had the same problem his first 5 years, but he is still the best player ever.

It is hard to rank players vs players from different eras, but even harder when you rate them against different positions, so I will only rank him against SF.

In that context I have my rankings:
Bird
James
Baylor
Havelick
Barry

After that it is debatable...
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:48 pm
He's not in my top 20:

(1) Michael Jordan
(2) Magic Johnson
(3) Larry Bird
(4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
(5) Isaiah Thomas
(6) Wilt Chamberlain
(7) Oscar Robertson
(8) Bill Russell
(9) Jerry West
(10) Rick Barry
(11) Julius Erving
(12) Hakeem Olajuwon
(13) Kobe Bryant
(14) Shaquille O'Neal
(15) Karl Malone
(16) Tim Duncan
(17) John Stockton
(18) Elgin Baylor
(19) Nate Thurmond
(20) David Robinson

And he's not even in my top 30. As everyone (rightfully) says: LeBron needs to win some rings before we talk about this. He's Chris Webber as things currently stand.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:01 pm
I'd be courious to see your top 10 SFs....
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:43 am
32 wrote:He's not in my top 20:

...
(15) Karl Malone
...
(17) John Stockton
...

And he's not even in my top 30. As everyone (rightfully) says: LeBron needs to win some rings before we talk about this. He's Chris Webber as things currently stand.


Those two guys never won rings, but they got in your top 20.

I only started following basketball a few years ago so I can't say, but how about this: if we put prime MJ and Lebron on court with same teammates (say we cloned mid 90s Chicago Bulls to get two exact same teams lol), who do you think would win?
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:15 am
For me, Lebron is already one of the top 25 players ever and close to top 15. He has done what noone ever did in their first nine years of their career. Lebron hasn't won any championships yet, but other than last season in Miami, he had nothing but garbage around him in Cleveland. Jordan didn't have immense talent next to him, at least in comparison to Magic and Bird, but he had far more talent than Lebron had in Cleveland and even has in Miami.

Lebron has won three MVPs in four years, that's more MVPs than most players in history, so right there he is a great player to be placed among the top 25, considering that he has always been at that level since the start of his career. With two championships, if he gets that many, that alone would put him as a top 10 player to me, if he keeps his current level for another three years at least, making 12 years at an alltime level in his career. That Heat team looks like winning a good five championships over the next eight to ten years if they stay together.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:39 am
gaga_warioz wrote:
32 wrote:He's not in my top 20:

...
(15) Karl Malone
...
(17) John Stockton
...

And he's not even in my top 30. As everyone (rightfully) says: LeBron needs to win some rings before we talk about this. He's Chris Webber as things currently stand.


Those two guys never won rings, but they got in your top 20.

I only started following basketball a few years ago so I can't say, but how about this: if we put prime MJ and Lebron on court with same teammates (say we cloned mid 90s Chicago Bulls to get two exact same teams lol), who do you think would win?

MJ because the Bulls teams were built the way dynasty driven championship teams should be: around a star that delivers victories. That LeBron doesn't want the last shot and may disappear in pivotal quarters, halves, and games means that he lacks the killer instinct that guys above him have.

Rings are a huge factor, but not the only factor. You'd have to have a REAL persuasive argument to keep Stockton and Malone outta the top 20 of all-time despite their lack of hardware.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 am
GSW Hoops Fan wrote:I'd be courious to see your top 10 SFs....

Surely:

(1) Larry Bird
(2) Rick Barry
(3) Julius Erving
(4) Elgin Baylor
(5) Scottie Pippen
(6) Dominique Wilkins
(7) James Worthy
(8) LeBron James
(9) Chris Mullin
(10) John Havilcek
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:04 pm
Interesting ranking of SF 32. Mine would be as follows:

1. Larry Bird
2. Lebron
3. Rick Barry
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Scottie Pippen
6. John Havlicek
7. Julius Erving
8. Paul Pierce
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. James Worthy


I think Lebron is that good and has shown in his nine year career so far. Another three years of this level and he may well be better than Bird was.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:45 am
He certainly can be that good, no doubt. But to me, he has a couple things he needs to accomplish first.

On my list, he's at #8.

If he wins a title, he'll leapfrog to #5.

If he wins 2 titles, I'd put him at #2.

And if LeBron gets 3 rings, we can talk about him vs Bird.

But, to me, Bird is #1. Barry was LeBron before LeBron: a 26 point, 8 rebound, 7 assist player in a pseudo-modern era who unquestionably LED his team to the title. Erving - next to Jordan - is the most influential figure in basketball history. Baylor played in a lax era, but averaged incredible rebounds for his position and revolutionized the game to be played above the rim. Scottie Pippen and James Worthy, while not being a #1 on their teams, have multiple rings and played gritty, hardnosed ball in their quest to win. Dominique Wilkins had a killer instinct, is the most underrated scorer of all-time, and purely lacks hardware cause his Hawks team's ran into the 80's Celtics, who were put together much more completely.

LeBron, as talented as he is and for his 3 MVP's... Is merely a 7-time champion of fantasy basketball rankings. If his TEAM can win with him driving then there, his stock will skyrocket to me.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:01 pm
Yea, Lebron needs championships to soldify his place among the alltime greats, but truth be said, his teams in Cleveland were horrible and the fact they won as much as they did was purely because of Lebron. You can say that Dominique and his Hawks teams didn't do well in the playoffs because they weren't that talented and had the likes of Jordan's Bulls and Bird's Celtics present at the time, but Dominique did have more talent with him than Lebron had in Cleveland and Lebron has had teams like the big three Celtics, Dwight Magic, the previously Wallaces Pistons and Jermaine's Pacers during his time with the Cavs.

To me three MVPs, and in four years, is nothing small and Bird himself didn't even do that, neither did Jordan. Lebron now may have Wade and Bosh next to him, but pretty much nothing else after those two, so any championship in Miami will not have been with immense talent, just three superstars, two of them among the top 5 players it could be said, but really nothing much surrounding them. He will always be seen as not the best as long ad he doesn't win championships and quite a few of them as well, because people will always say Jordan got six and Kobe got five.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:30 am
Now that Lebron has won his first championship, he solidifies his place among the greats. The fact he got finals MVP and performed the way he did, with numbers Jordan himself didn't get, Lebron is nearing top 5 alltime status.

Bird is still the best SF, but not by much at all and another MVP and to me, Lebron is better than him, though many would want to see him get at least one or two more championships.


Also, Wade himself, though not as good as Lebron and this season and post season, that was more evident as he took more of a back seat, us also a great player that deserves conversation among alltime players. To me, he is a top 10 SG for sure, really top 5 now, as he has played nine seasons and been a top 5 player in the nba during the time for a good seven or eight of those seasons.

Jordan is still #1 and Kobe is still #2 among SGs, but then it is not as clear, as Wade himself could be placed #3. Iverson, a player I think is largely overlooked, if taken as SG, is probably #3, as he did more than Wade except getting championships.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:23 am
Revised:

(1) Larry Bird
(2) Rick Barry
(3) Julius Erving
(4) Elgin Baylor
(5) LeBron James
(6) Scottie Pippen
(7) Dominique Wilkins
(8) James Worthy
(9) Chris Mullin
(10) John Havilcek
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:52 pm
Baylor also didn't win any championships. You don't put Lebron above him?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:42 am
I don't think individual success and how good a player was should be predicated on team success. This is a team sport and Lebron lost to Dallas last year not because he just wasn't one of the best, but because of the defensive schemes employed by Dallas and the lack of adjustments by the Heat's coach. Why did he lose to the Spurs, the Spurs were the better team.

When you start judging on team success to rank a player it becomes really subjective. What kind of stats do you need to get past a player with a ring and why is that the arbitrary measure?
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