4 Grudges Warriors Fans Need To Let Go Of

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:06 pm
rockyBeli wrote:
migya wrote:This new ownership has got to change the culture of this franchise and obviouls that means not making such awful moves as that one. So far they've done well with the Monta for Bogut deal. Interesting to see how that pans out starting next season, but the move itself looks real good.


Lol Cohan was such a -1000000 owner that the only requirement for the new owner to be better was simply to have a brain.

Literally, me and you could've made better basketball decisions than Cohan and Co. I'm 100% confident of that, because the way this team was ran for so long was worse than Joe shmo fan off the street. At least Jo Shmo fan wanted to win! That's more than Cohan could say. Selling the team truly was the turning of the tide because finally we got someone in there who's going to at least put some thought into making logical basketball decisions, and isn't all about the $$, and actually wants to win. Strange. A normal owner? What a concept lol

True, but going back to what migs said in that quote, isn't that trade similar to 07 trade?

A guard getting 20 points here (probably 15 or 16 elsewhere) for a big man with risk involved that should pay off in a year?

Granted, Bogut is clearly established compared to Wright, but to reiterate, there's risks involved in both deals. Bogut's risk is injuries, Wright's risk was the allure of potential.

And, concurrently, I was glad we pulled the trigger on both deals.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:11 pm
32 wrote:
rockyBeli wrote:
migya wrote:This new ownership has got to change the culture of this franchise and obviouls that means not making such awful moves as that one. So far they've done well with the Monta for Bogut deal. Interesting to see how that pans out starting next season, but the move itself looks real good.


Lol Cohan was such a -1000000 owner that the only requirement for the new owner to be better was simply to have a brain.

Literally, me and you could've made better basketball decisions than Cohan and Co. I'm 100% confident of that, because the way this team was ran for so long was worse than Joe shmo fan off the street. At least Jo Shmo fan wanted to win! That's more than Cohan could say. Selling the team truly was the turning of the tide because finally we got someone in there who's going to at least put some thought into making logical basketball decisions, and isn't all about the $$, and actually wants to win. Strange. A normal owner? What a concept lol

True, but going back to what migs said in that quote, isn't that trade similar to 07 trade?

A guard getting 20 points here (probably 15 or 16 elsewhere) for a big man with risk involved that should pay off in a year?

Granted, Bogut is clearly established compared to Wright, but to reiterate, there's risks involved in both deals. Bogut's risk is injuries, Wright's risk was the allure of potential.

And, concurrently, I was glad we pulled the trigger on both deals.



Well you said it that Bogut was/is established. Not only established, but a Center that is top 3 or 4, no comparison to BWright the lottery pick. Even if Bogut got a career ending injury in the offseason and never played a game for the Warriors, the move itself was an absolute winner and a nobrainer, had to be done.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:41 pm
32 wrote:
rockyBeli wrote:
migya wrote:This new ownership has got to change the culture of this franchise and obviouls that means not making such awful moves as that one. So far they've done well with the Monta for Bogut deal. Interesting to see how that pans out starting next season, but the move itself looks real good.


Lol Cohan was such a -1000000 owner that the only requirement for the new owner to be better was simply to have a brain.

Literally, me and you could've made better basketball decisions than Cohan and Co. I'm 100% confident of that, because the way this team was ran for so long was worse than Joe shmo fan off the street. At least Jo Shmo fan wanted to win! That's more than Cohan could say. Selling the team truly was the turning of the tide because finally we got someone in there who's going to at least put some thought into making logical basketball decisions, and isn't all about the $$, and actually wants to win. Strange. A normal owner? What a concept lol

True, but going back to what migs said in that quote, isn't that trade similar to 07 trade?

A guard getting 20 points here (probably 15 or 16 elsewhere) for a big man with risk involved that should pay off in a year?

Granted, Bogut is clearly established compared to Wright, but to reiterate, there's risks involved in both deals. Bogut's risk is injuries, Wright's risk was the allure of potential.

And, concurrently, I was glad we pulled the trigger on both deals.



Nah apples and oranges imo. Yes both risks, but one payoff is a top 5 center if healthy, and the other is crossing fingers that a project player pans out (in 4 yrs). It's like trading Ellis for Bynum - who's more injury prone than Bogut. That's a risk you gotta take but the B Wright trade was more of a prayer considering how slow project big men develop - and the Warirors were in win-now mode. Couple that with Bogut's injury risks not being chronic and I think W's have a way better chance of 1) it panning out 2) the payoff being so much greater.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:06 am
32 wrote:
Guybrush wrote:We are now talking on another topic about getting Iggy for some unproven players, draft picks etc, and you said there's no way they would go for that, but here you are applauding Mullin for doing that years ago.

:mrgreen: you sly devil, you caught me playing both sides haha. Well done!

But come on Guybrush... You really think the Warriors should have just stood pat with what they had? After Utah exposed them as COMPLETELY vulnerable to post isolation and EXTREMELY sorry at switching off the pick and roll?

And you think a lottery pick big man with a $10 million trade exception wasn't good dowry for a guy who very well was going to be an expensive 6th man?

(I'm not saying they used the exception - or Wright - properly, but those assets for a one-dimensional scorer on a crowded team of offensive guns... That's not a good deal to you?)

I'm still impressed you caught me double dipping. :D

I have to watch what you guys write, part of my job here. ::razz: Though, that was hard to miss, contradicting yourself. ::lol:

Anyway, I see your point, and I agree that we needed some big guy, but at that point Richardson had some value, and we could/should have got some proven PF in return. That's a deal I would applaud him for. Even if that player never met our (and teams) expectations. At least he did something to be worth as much as Richardson, not just being drafted high. You can get guys that haven't proven themselves quite easily, heck, you can get them from D-League, but just because he was drafted high, doesn't mean he has a value as a proven veteran, and one of the leaders of our team. If he was top 3 pick, that are less likely to fail, then ok, but he wasn't And Warriors should know the best how many picks have failed when picked somewhere around 8th spot.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:24 pm
Soooo... I'm assuming no one would trade Richard Jefferson for a draft pick and a trade exception then?

A top 10 pick, no less?

Cause when we traded JRich, he had turned into a former flyer, decent rebounder for his position, and made his bread and butter on spot-up 3's. To boot, he had a big contract and had several cheaper alternatives on the bench that could assume his production if traded. He was coming off a 13 PPG season, as a career 17 PPG player.

That's Jefferson to a T, right now.

Granted, I know JRich had more fans here than RJ does, but how can we justify claiming we'd dish RJ in a similar deal when so many here are claiming they hated the Wright deal?

Not in aftermath, but in theory: cause thus far in this thread, people are claiming they wouldn't trade a deteriorating scoring guard (on a team full of guns) in a salary dump for a trade exception and a lottery pick.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:48 am
That's like saying how could you not trade Vince Carter this offseason for a #10 pick when you would have traded Gilbert Arenas for a #10 pick three years ago. Not the same thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:59 pm
2012 REGULAR SEASON STATS

BRANDAN WRIGHT ($1.0 million)

6.3 PPG, 3.6 RPG, 0.3 APG
0.5 SPG, 1.3 BPG
61.8% FG, N/A% 3PT, 63.4% FT
In 16:11 MPG

JASON RICHARDSON ($5.8 million)

11.7 PPG, 3.6 RPG, 2.0 APG
1.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG
40.8% FG, 36.8% 3PT, 59.4% FT
In 29:30 MPG

Just food for thought: in half the playing time at a fifth of the cost, Brandan Wright shot better across the board and outperformed Jason Richardson in every tangible category in Per40. Some stats, such as blocks, rebounds, and FG% are hysterically skewed in Wright's favor. Richardson, to his credit, is the unquestionable leader in the assist department. EFF ratings were 21.66 to 13.38, a +8.28 in favor of Wright.

According to all statistics that compute production per minute, Brandan Wright by and away was the indisputable superior player last year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:53 am
After five years in the nba, BWright finally plays decently. Thing is, will it continue.

Come on, that trade of BW for JRich was about as awful as has been in GS Warriors history. JRich just had his worst season and still, he was a starter that fit in and did his job of mostly shooting from the outside. BWright has finally found a spot it looks, but it is as a backup and he won't be a starter. Good for him, but still, he has not come close to earning his lottery pick position.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:34 am
I think what the trade was in principle and what happened to the assets we acquired are two different things. I'll get to the latter in a second, but as far as the former: yes, I've always said that it was the right move to trade a declining, expensive, one-dimensional guard for a lottery pick big man and a $10 million trade exception. I believe the deal was sound in principle.

Now... Whether or not the Warriors properly used the assets they acquired, that's another story. Obviously, the trade exception being allowed to expire and, thus, put $10 million back in Cohan's pocket? That's a travesty. In basketball terms, I give that an F. But that was no fault of the VP of Basketball Operations; Mullin had proposed a swap with Memphis that would have brought in Mike Miller without giving up any players. Check the 14th paragraph:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/02/05/two-years-ago-chris-webber-exposedcaused-the-warriors-insanity-again/

Miller, instead, was kept on the trade block and used as thrown in dowry during the Kevin Love for Rudy Gay trade.

Brandan Wright, meanwhile, wasn't what Don Nelson was looking for.

Nellie insisted on playing everyone a position too big and if you weren't stocky, like Davis, or ripped, like Maggette, you were going to suffer. Debuting at 205 lbs, Wright was closer to a small forward than a center in terms of size and stature. When he did get decent amounts of run, Wright has always produced high percentage scoring; he is the fastest 6'10" guy up and down the floor in the league, and he has shown flashes of being a rim protector. Naturally, as someone incapable of guarding bigger players or leaving the game with 10 rebounds, Nelson was uninterested and played Wright in a pattern even the most patient of Nelson fans would call sporadic and unfair.

His first year fully removed from the Warriors franchise, Wright trailed only Serge Ibaka, Chris Anderson, and JaValle McGee as rotation players in the BP48 category (10th overall, but besides the three exceptions, everyone else played less than 11 MPG). His nearly 62% shooting would have led the league if he shot enough to qualify. And at this junction, it's pretty clear that the only reason he didn't start was because Dirk Nowitski owns the 4 slot in Dallas.

Again, just food for thought.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:03 pm
You're absolutely right, BWright was very efficient this season for Dalla. Looks like one of the most effective PFs this season. You can actually say that he was better this season than JRich, who, in reality, is a declining player, looking like he is backup material in truth. BWright was valuable for Dallas and that's no small thing, they need backups now and they've at least got one permanent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for BWright and hope he does keep performing the way he has, but at the time he was drafted and Mullin (I think he was the most responsible, but hard to tell) made the trade, it was a bad one, for the short term and for a period of some four years I think. It did allow Monta to start, but looking back, Monta was probably better as a sixth man. Also, yea, that TE should have been used properly, but don't forget, that probably would have meant Monta and AB would not have been resigned, so hard to tell what the situation would have been.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:39 am
It'd be nice if the FO in place had a clue at that time but of course they didn't. The only way that trade is a good one is if there's a plan locked in place where the chances of flipping that trade exception for a good player is near 100%. So yeah, in theory it had the potential to be a good trade, but the aftermath of the trade was so closely intertwined with it. So it's not really two separate things. It's like trading up to draft a player for the sole purpose of flipping it for a vet. If there's no flip, it may be a horrible move. That trade is only good if the chance of losing the KG sweepstakes was really low, and it wasn't, there was no legitmate plan by the FO, they let that sucker expire and we saw a very good SG get traded for scraps. Monta Ellis wasn't a whole lot better than J Rich at that time, if at all, everyone just liked his potential and highlight layups. J Rich also played most of that We Believe playoff run while Monta sucked it up and looked in over his head. The trade sent a bad message of loyalty to the rest of the team, started the small ball Monta problem, and was one of the stupidest trades ever imo because there were so many other options they could've explored but they chose one of the riskiest. If you're trying to go from 2nd round playoff team to contender, you don't trade for some raw player who just now may be figuring out how to play. I still think he'll be a bench player for life. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:31 pm
I will only mention that the small backcourt problem began when we drafted Curry. A 6,3 combo guard is not a problem, you start him at PG, 2 of those are a small backcourt problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:01 pm
Moreso when both 6'3 guards don't play much defense.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:54 pm
rockyBeli wrote:It'd be nice if the FO in place had a clue at that time but of course they didn't. The only way that trade is a good one is if there's a plan locked in place where the chances of flipping that trade exception for a good player is near 100%. So yeah, in theory it had the potential to be a good trade, but the aftermath of the trade was so closely intertwined with it. So it's not really two separate things. It's like trading up to draft a player for the sole purpose of flipping it for a vet. If there's no flip, it may be a horrible move. That trade is only good if the chance of losing the KG sweepstakes was really low, and it wasn't, there was no legitmate plan by the FO, they let that sucker expire and we saw a very good SG get traded for scraps. Monta Ellis wasn't a whole lot better than J Rich at that time, if at all, everyone just liked his potential and highlight layups. J Rich also played most of that We Believe playoff run while Monta sucked it up and looked in over his head. The trade sent a bad message of loyalty to the rest of the team, started the small ball Monta problem, and was one of the stupidest trades ever imo because there were so many other options they could've explored but they chose one of the riskiest. If you're trying to go from 2nd round playoff team to contender, you don't trade for some raw player who just now may be figuring out how to play. I still think he'll be a bench player for life. :mrgreen:

This is good post, I'll do my best to rebuttle.

Firstly, as is custom with most Dubs fans, I think you're over-valuing Richardson. This was not a Mitch Richmond type star who went on to play in multiple all-star games; this was a career 43% shooter who was losing his aggression on the drive and his explosiveness in general. Coupled by the fact that Richardson had horrendous handles for a 6'6" off-guard and didn't play consistent defense, you have to understand what he was becoming: a 16 PPG nothing-but-scorer (who wasn't even efficient in that role). Sure, you can say Monta wasn't that much better than him at the time, but Ellis was coming off his second season already averaging 17 points on nearly 10% better than J-Rich. And after the trade, there's no comparison in whose been a better player, using hindsight bias.

Secondly, I feel you're being too categorical in terms of the trade exception. You don't need a deal-in-waiting to justify a 10 million dollar bargaining chip (even though Golden State did; first, with Garnett, second with Miller - both eventually fell through). That exception was a get-out-of-jail-free card: it could have been used to bring in Marcus Camby, it should have netted Mike Miller, it could have gotten us Shane Battier... The list goes on and on. The bargaining chip, insofar as the VP acquired it, was useful. You can't disregard that because ownership pulled an about-face and decided to cash out those funds; that's on Cohan, not Mullin (and as we can all agree, Mullin was the one who gave a sh*t about basketball assets).

Finally, in terms of Brandan Wright: you cannot draft a project big man whose pay-off is 5 years down the road and then condemn him as a failure by trading him in his 4th season.

Why did they do it? For several reasons:

(1) they were exposed by Utah and needed size; but they couldn't get ANY big guy, they needed a 4-5 that could run in Nelson's system. If ever there was a person who fit the bill of what Nelson advertised he wanted out of a power forward, Wright was it.

(2) they had just gotten to the playoffs after a season in which Richardson missed the majority of games played and was wholely ineffective when he DID suit up. The 2006-'07 season for J-Rich can easily be chalked up to a failure and just because he showed up in the post-season doesn't mean management wanted to roll the dice on another year of Richardson relying on his rapidly atrophying leg. If the Dubs could make the post-season in spite of him, why wouldn't management assume they could get back to the dance without him (especially with a full camp and season of the spoils they robbed Indiana of)? Harrington and Jackson made the tandem of Davis, Ellis, and Biedrins look so versatile and deep that pawning Richardson for a project that could potentially pay huge dividends (which Wright undoubtably was) seemed like a win-win.

*

Again, for basketball reasons at the time, this deal made a lot of sense. In the grand scheme of things, this deal didn't set the Warriors back hardly at all. But in hindsight bias? Yes, Warriors fans have the right to be upset for the trade exception expiring and Wright taking light years to develop. But to regard this trade among the worst in Warrior history? Sorry, but this wouldn't even crack my top 5.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:18 pm
Well explained 32 and I'm agreeing more with your view in fact. That TE should and was supposed to be used to gain at least one good player. BWright was actually said to be used in a trade package for KG that fell through and KG would have fit Nelson style very well, but anyway.

The thing that I see and most people see, which I think is the biggest thing to see, is that the team gave away a sure thing in JRich for a project and that always has far more chance of failing than succeeding.

JRich has fallen, but who would have seen that and his fall has been very recent, this season being the only ordinary one. He has been among the best SGs for years and has fit in well with his teams, especially Phoenix but moreso Orlando, where next to Dwight, Jameer and Turkoglu he is ideal.

I still think JRich could have gotten us a proven PF, even JSmith at the time straight up, add in the draft picks that were also given to Charlotte for BWright if needed. Much better options available.

Again, I don't see how this trade of JRich for BWright is ot worse than Richmond for Owens back in 1991. Richmod was doing what JRich was doing when he was trades. Owens was a sure thing to contribute right away, BWright it was known would not, if at all. The team won more straight away in Owen's rookie season with Owens being a big part of it. BWright had nothing to do with any winning the team had and in fact, the team went back to their losing ways a season after JRich was traded.
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