THE Definative Warriors Breakdown

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Who should be the W's starter at the two in the forseeable future?

J-Rich
14
93%
Mickey the P
1
7%
 
Total votes : 15


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:53 pm
Baron Davis: He wants the ball 49 minutes a game...and he deserves it.

Jason Richardson: Likes to create for himself and so not ideally suited to play with Baron. I'm not criticizing (except for free-throw shooting)because he shoots, finishes at the bucket, rebounds, defends: everything you want in your starting two guard but...

Mickael Pietrus: ...does all the same stuff. Shoots, gets to the bucket, defends a bit better than Jason and is content to let his teamates create for him, meaning guys like Baron and the team's most versatile and cerebral player...

Mike Dunleavy: ...as well as there best leader. When reporters were beating up on Pietrus for his foul on Atkins, Dunleavy sounded off on one of the reporters and then calmly answered there other questions. He also was the only one to stand up to Baron and call out Baron's unwillingness to play within some sort of structure. In short, he is the guy that deflects the criticism from his teamates when needed as well as criticizes his teamates when needed=TEAM LEADER. He also can penetrate, rebound (defensive and offensive), pass, handle the ball, defend and shoot (in that order of proficiency) but needs a few years to improve in all those aspects. But hey, there just isn't enough time in the day to get good at all those things quickly. In short a very intriguing player.

Troy Murphy: Has learned to play beyond his potential and kudos to him. An excellent shooter, a passable post player, very good defensive rebounder but a little soft, a little slow footed and can't get off the floor. He would be a good player for a team with a good low-post presence but that ain't the Warriors and besides he's a New Jersey guy and so Mullin should send him back to his coast and make room for...

Diogu and Taft: ...oodles and oodles of upside for both players. These guys should be joined at the hip for the next 5-6 years. Diogu is a skilled post scorer and a guy who was the focal point of his college squad while Taft is a good post defender who was a role-player on his college squad. These guys can learn so much from each other it's scary. If they get along at all they should be road trip roomies and locker room buddies. I can see them starting together at the big forward and center positions just like the other two talented Warriors big men...

Biedrins and Cabarkapa: ...Shock Troops. Join these guys at the hip, too. Their energy level is off the charts and while Cabarkapa is not yet an NBA power forward he is playing with more and more aggression every time I see him. These guys should come in as a back-up tandem. There energy level and hustle would be a ferocious change of pace to the previously mentioned big men's muscle. Eventually you might have to let Biedrins start but Cabarkapa will likely always be a back-up. The tandem of Diogu followed by Cabarkapa would give nice outside shooting (more work needed) at the big forward spot as well as creativity on the block. Just let Biedrins develop at his current pace and eventually the youngest player in the NBA will be a real inside force and the sort of European player the league has never seen before.

Derek Fisher and Adonal Foyle: Two veterans playing the best basketball they are capable of. In Foyle's case with a contract nobody will take. That's okay, he does his part and he sat on the Warriors bench for many years making not much money. Good for him.

Monta Ellis: The last piece of the puzzle and Baron's successor. This kid plays with confidence, skill and poise. He never rushes and he never backs down. There is no limit to this kid's potential and with a workman like Mario Ellie mentoring him he is only going to develop in the right ways, basically all the ways that Baron hasn't been able to develop.

Conclusion: Troy Murphy's and Jason Richardson's contracts are the two big one's that are the most tradeable. They are also the two positions that the Warriors are deepest at and so congratulations to Mullin for positioning the Warriors just right. It's a razors edge he is walking since if he can't pull the trigger and move them than he stands to lose a lot with superior back-ups walking because the (slightly) inferior starters are getting the big money. What do you look for in return? A couple big, strong, rangy athletes at the forward and guard position that want to play defense and...I'm just not sure what else. They actually don't need too much, which is just what Mullin has been saying all along. By the way, Chris, if you need a scout or an assistant or something let me know:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:57 pm
...Air France is better than J-Rich???

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:12 pm
Not better, but J-Rich deserves to be with a point guard that is willing to dribble down court and dump the ball off and move to the next logical spot. Essentially get the offense started with J-Rich as the focal point. A point guard that is willing to get his shots in the rhythm of the game when the other team tries to clamp down on the scorers (meaning J-Rich). Baron Davis is definately not that point guard. I think Pietrus is better suited to work in conjunction with a guy like Baron.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:35 pm
Firstly, well written and thought out. Some good points and some that I don't agree with.

thinkingwarriors wrote:Baron Davis: He wants the ball 49 minutes a game...and he deserves it.


Noone deserves the ball that much! He should have the ball in his hands a fair bit but the team has many players that should have the ball some also.


thinkingwarriors wrote:Jason Richardson: Likes to create for himself and so not ideally suited to play with Baron. I'm not criticizing (except for free-throw shooting)because he shoots, finishes at the bucket, rebounds, defends: everything you want in your starting two guard but...


JRich doesn't create that much for himself, not with his ability to handle the ball and not with Baron always setting up the offense. He seems very well suited to playing with Baron as he can spot up and post up and Baron gets him the ball.


thinkingwarriors wrote:Mickael Pietrus: ...does all the same stuff. Shoots, gets to the bucket, defends a bit better than Jason and is content to let his teamates create for him, meaning guys like Baron and the team's most versatile and cerebral player...


Yes, Pietrus has great potential and is already doing things great but he is not as good as JRich yet and is better being the starting SF alongside JRich. Also, the way Pietrus is aggressive offensively, when he starts to handle the ball better, he will probably go himself alot and not rely on Baron so much. This is a possibility and he wil have to realise that the team concept (sharing the ball and allowing others to isolate sometimes also) is always better than the individual. He will do that but so will JRich. BOTH TOGETHER ARE BETTER THAN ONLY ONE ON THE TEAM!


thinkingwarriors wrote:Mike Dunleavy: ...as well as there best leader. When reporters were beating up on Pietrus for his foul on Atkins, Dunleavy sounded off on one of the reporters and then calmly answered there other questions. He also was the only one to stand up to Baron and call out Baron's unwillingness to play within some sort of structure. In short, he is the guy that deflects the criticism from his teamates when needed as well as criticizes his teamates when needed=TEAM LEADER. He also can penetrate, rebound (defensive and offensive), pass, handle the ball, defend and shoot (in that order of proficiency) but needs a few years to improve in all those aspects. But hey, there just isn't enough time in the day to get good at all those things quickly. In short a very intriguing player.


Did Dunleavy really stick up for Pietrus with the reporters....... my respect for him has just gone much higher! :) Great to see a man stick up for his teammates, essentially like brothers in their job! He must be careful not to be rude to a teammate when calling him out and realise that he may cause disharmony a bit but honesty is good!
I don't think he is as effective as you think he is and his career thus far has not been that good but he does have allround skills and could become a real assett if he gets better and becomes consistent. An overpaid player at the moment, more than any other in the Warriors - 8.8 million a season!!!!!! :x


thinkingwarriors wrote:Troy Murphy: Has learned to play beyond his potential and kudos to him. An excellent shooter, a passable post player, very good defensive rebounder but a little soft, a little slow footed and can't get off the floor. He would be a good player for a team with a good low-post presence but that ain't the Warriors and besides he's a New Jersey guy and so Mullin should send him back to his coast and make room for...


I like this guy and think that the team without him would falter alot, at least initially. He scores and rebounds well and that makes him an assett. I really want to see more of Diogu but that will probably have to mean that Murphy gets less court time so this is a tricky situation in that aspect. Murphy to the Nets. for who? He can stay, unless his part of a trade to get KG :)


thinkingwarriors wrote:Diogu and Taft: ...oodles and oodles of upside for both players. These guys should be joined at the hip for the next 5-6 years. Diogu is a skilled post scorer and a guy who was the focal point of his college squad while Taft is a good post defender who was a role-player on his college squad. These guys can learn so much from each other it's scary. If they get along at all they should be road trip roomies and locker room buddies. I can see them starting together at the big forward and center positions just like the other two talented Warriors big men...


I like what your thinking here and you have a good point! Diogu looks the goods but Taft not so sure of and this back injury thing has gone on for most of the season - Could end up being chronic.


thinkingwarriors wrote:Biedrins and Cabarkapa: ...Shock Troops. Join these guys at the hip, too. Their energy level is off the charts and while Cabarkapa is not yet an NBA power forward he is playing with more and more aggression every time I see him. These guys should come in as a back-up tandem. There energy level and hustle would be a ferocious change of pace to the previously mentioned big men's muscle. Eventually you might have to let Biedrins start but Cabarkapa will likely always be a back-up. The tandem of Diogu followed by Cabarkapa would give nice outside shooting (more work needed) at the big forward spot as well as creativity on the block. Just let Biedrins develop at his current pace and eventually the youngest player in the NBA will be a real inside force and the sort of European player the league has never seen before.


Biedrins is my initial pick for starting center but he has to improve ofcourse. He has great potential and hopefully he wil become great in the Warriors, something I'm not sure of, he might end up somewhere else. Zarko....... man this guy could be great but has he gotten any better over the last couple of seasons......... His defense, where is it....... a major problem. He shoots and handles well but has to do more than that.


thinkingwarriors wrote:Derek Fisher and Adonal Foyle: Two veterans playing the best basketball they are capable of. In Foyle's case with a contract nobody will take. That's okay, he does his part and he sat on the Warriors bench for many years making not much money. Good for him.


Both these guys do their bit but just not enough for what they get paid and they are both replaceable by guys already on the team. Foyle is the one that really has no place on the team with Biedrins getting better and Diogu needing more court time. With Taft, if he finally heals from his injury, Foyle really has no place on the team.


thinkingwarriors wrote:Monta Ellis: The last piece of the puzzle and Baron's successor. This kid plays with confidence, skill and poise. He never rushes and he never backs down. There is no limit to this kid's potential and with a workman like Mario Ellie mentoring him he is only going to develop in the right ways, basically all the ways that Baron hasn't been able to develop.


He won't be taking baon's spot any time soon. Really think this guy will end up leaving because he will want more opportunity. He, for now, is a good replacement for Fisher, if Fisher was traded but Ellis is very young and the defense is what I think he needs to work on right now the most. Physically, the guy is real good!


thinkingwarriors wrote:Conclusion: Troy Murphy's and Jason Richardson's contracts are the two big one's that are the most tradeable. They are also the two positions that the Warriors are deepest at and so congratulations to Mullin for positioning the Warriors just right. It's a razors edge he is walking since if he can't pull the trigger and move them than he stands to lose a lot with superior back-ups walking because the (slightly) inferior starters are getting the big money. What do you look for in return? A couple big, strong, rangy athletes at the forward and guard position that want to play defense and...I'm just not sure what else. They actually don't need too much, which is just what Mullin has been saying all along. By the way, Chris, if you need a scout or an assistant or something let me know:


That's what gets me - The Warriors are very talented but have not won anywhere near what I thought they would!
Leads to one of two options:
1. Have patience and trade noone (except maybe Foyle for a future 1st pick or even 2nd round pick) or
2. Trade half the team and get other established players to see if the wins come then.

I'm one for the 1st option - Things will be right if patience and organisation are established
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 am
migya wrote:
thinkingwarriors wrote:Mike Dunleavy: ...as well as there best leader. When reporters were beating up on Pietrus for his foul on Atkins, Dunleavy sounded off on one of the reporters and then calmly answered there other questions. He also was the only one to stand up to Baron and call out Baron's unwillingness to play within some sort of structure. In short, he is the guy that deflects the criticism from his teamates when needed as well as criticizes his teamates when needed=TEAM LEADER. He also can penetrate, rebound (defensive and offensive), pass, handle the ball, defend and shoot (in that order of proficiency) but needs a few years to improve in all those aspects. But hey, there just isn't enough time in the day to get good at all those things quickly. In short a very intriguing player.


Did Dunleavy really stick up for Pietrus with the reporters....... my respect for him has just gone much higher! :)


Yes, he did. It was after the game against Memphis, when Pietrus made a stupid foul on Atkins at the end of the game, and Dun defended him against a reporter looking for "meat". Props to him for that.

With that said, it would be nice if our TEAM LEADER didn't suck us much on the court...

btw, the team leaders are Baron and J-Rich. I think that much is pretty clear.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:32 am
TMC wrote:btw, the team leaders are Baron and J-Rich. I think that much is pretty clear.

On the court, sure... But off the court, the clear cut leader is Derek Fisher (along with spurts from Dunleavy, Davis, and Foyle). Being the best player doesn't make you a team leader.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:31 am
This thread is the best thread that I have read (so far) on the team.

Kudos to all of the contributors.

Let's also do some analysis on the state-of-the-front-office and coaching.

Guys, I like Monty (loved his teams at Stanford; they were tough and disciplined); but, why can't this team run a decent half-court set, get the ball out on the break in a transition game, or play any decent team defense. The team's inability to defend the low block with Foyle (he does block some shots as a weakside defender helping his teammates) and Murphy, along with Dunleavy's horrible perimeter defense (except for the home game vs. the Cavs), makes this starting frontcourt anemic on defense and even worse on offense (Foyle cannot do anything on offense except for embarrass himself and the team; Murphy has a nice outside game, but no inside game (unacceptable for a power forward), and Dunleavy is inconsistent (at best).

Are the current crop of youngsters on the bench (Ike, Biedrens (sometimes a starter), Air France, Zarko, Taft), better than the current front court? If so, is it time for Monty to make changes?

I believe that backcourt is solid; we have a nice 4 and 1/2 man rotation with Air France going between the 2 and 3 positions nicely and Fisher and Ellis subbing for Davis and Richardson (arguably the third best starting backcourt in the league (just behind Detroit and San Antonio's).

The frontcourt, the front office, and the coaching all concern me.

Front office: Mullin really messed up by not retaining Musselman, overreacted when losing Damp by signing Foyle to a big contract, gave too much money to Dunleavy, and may have done the same with Murphy. The drafting of Biedrens, Ike, Taft, and Ellis all were good moves by the front office (commendable, yes!); however, the bringing in of Monty as the team's coach still puzzles me.

Coaching: Why can't this Warrior team play with the same kind of discipline as Monty's Stanford teams?

Once again, I commend everyone on this thread for their analysis and coments.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:11 pm
#32 wrote:
TMC wrote:btw, the team leaders are Baron and J-Rich. I think that much is pretty clear.

On the court, sure... But off the court, the clear cut leader is Derek Fisher (along with spurts from Dunleavy, Davis, and Foyle). Being the best player doesn't make you a team leader.


I was talking only on the court. Off the court, Foyle could be the closest one, with Fish as a second, but I don't really think there's a leader off the court. Just guys more assertive than others.

uptempo wrote:Front office: Mullin really messed up by not retaining Musselman, overreacted when losing Damp by signing Foyle to a big contract, gave too much money to Dunleavy, and may have done the same with Murphy. The drafting of Biedrens, Ike, Taft, and Ellis all were good moves by the front office (commendable, yes!); however, the bringing in of Monty as the team's coach still puzzles me.


It's been a bit of a roller coaster, isn't it?. One good move followed by a bad move...

The Baron trade and pretty good drafting are the positive things, but then you look at the coach, the players re-signed (some of them, not everyone was a bad contract) and the stupid trade with Denver (I know it was just to clear Najera's salary off the books, but we lost one first round pick in the deepest draft in four years just for that. It was a stupid trade. I'm not blaming this on Mullin, it probably was a move ordered by Cohan, and Mullin couldn't find a better offer. But it is stupid, nonetheless).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:20 pm
uptempo wrote:Guys, I like Monty (loved his teams at Stanford; they were tough and disciplined); but, why can't this team run a decent half-court set, get the ball out on the break in a transition game, or play any decent team defense. The team's inability to defend the low block with Foyle (he does block some shots as a weakside defender helping his teammates) and Murphy, along with Dunleavy's horrible perimeter defense (except for the home game vs. the Cavs), makes this starting frontcourt anemic on defense and even worse on offense (Foyle cannot do anything on offense except for embarrass himself and the team; Murphy has a nice outside game, but no inside game (unacceptable for a power forward), and Dunleavy is inconsistent (at best).

Defense just isn't what these players are about. If you look at players like Baron, JRich, Murphy, and Dunleavy, you see an offensive crop of players who can score well (and carry several weapons on offense), but struggle on defense. It's just the way they play. All the more reason I'd like Mario Elie to take over as head coach; he emphasizes defense and hustle. If you ever saw the Junkyeard Dog play, you remember that his defensive skills were both drawn from his hustle AND his smarts; Elie was a defensive genius. If he can pass the traits onto the new Warriors, then the rewards will be great!

uptempo wrote:Are the current crop of youngsters on the bench (Ike, Biedrens (sometimes a starter), Air France, Zarko, Taft), better than the current front court? If so, is it time for Monty to make changes?

He has, slowly but surely. Monty realizes that Pietrus and Biedrins are better options than Foyle and Dunleavy, and he's subbed them as such (Mickael even starts now). However, players like Taft, Ike, and Zarko still have some growing to do before they can outrank Murphy. Ike is the most attractive option, but he suffers from the Andris-Biedrins-hack-a-Shaq (even when Shaq's not there) syndrom. If Ike could foul less (and get more looks on offense), than the debate between him and Murphy could get more serious... but until then, we need a reliable 4 that can play 40 minutes a night without fouling out. Murphy's the best one.

uptempo wrote:Front office: Mullin really messed up by not retaining Musselman, overreacted when losing Damp by signing Foyle to a big contract, gave too much money to Dunleavy, and may have done the same with Murphy.

Yes to everything but the Murphy comment. Troy Murphy is a great player, who deserves the bank he's making. If Murphy could play decent defense, nobody would be questioning how much money he makes. With his ability to improve, I don't see why him learning a few defensive skills seems so out of the question. In his time in the NBA, he's added moves away from the ball, a 3-point shot, and an intensely upgraded rebounding mind. He has the ability to improve his game, so don't worry about him so much.

uptempo wrote:The drafting of Biedrens, Ike, Taft, and Ellis all were good moves by the front office (commendable, yes!); however, the bringing in of Monty as the team's coach still puzzles me.

Coaching: Why can't this Warrior team play with the same kind of discipline as Monty's Stanford teams?

In the NBA, a gentler hand is necessary. Monty's style may work on college kids, but players like Baron Davis and Mickael Pietrus may not take to his style too seriously. In the NBA, it's not about telling players how to play, it's about direction. Monty is too stuck on trying to teach players the game of basketball as opposed to channeling their skills through the right mediums. Using a player's skill is the NBA's way of coaching; not changing what a player is (like college).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:44 am
I want to make a few really important point about defense and finishing out games. Let's take a look at the last six games before the break. The first three started by Baron and the last three started by Derek(the fourth game is when Baron twisted his ankle, played only ten minutes and so I give that one to Derek). In Baron's three games we gave up 114, 129 and 107. In Derek's three games we gave up 91, 81 and 81. That is a huge difference, not to mention the fact that we won two of Derek's three games and lost the third by a bucket while we won only one of Baron's games. Here's the really disturbing part: In five of those six games we were outscored in the fourth quarter, that includes two of the three wins! You know how when we win it seems to be by just hanging on by our fingernails? A lot of that is our much maligned free-throw shooting. In our three wins J-Rich went 5-8, 4-8 and 6-13! Ouch. But not to beat up on J-Rich because it really comes down to lack of mental toughness in the fourth quarter. When the other team ratchets up the intensity in the fourth, the Warriors look around like, "what just happened, we played one team for three quarters and then in the fourth a completely different team showed up." Well that is how it is in the NBA and a lot of that comes from the coaching staff. You ever notice Larry Brown in the fourth quarter of a close game? It looks like he is trying to give himself an ulcer. Or Pat Reilly, his hair gets even more slicked back because that is what he is constantly doing with his hands. The players notice and respond to that sort of emotion on a subconscious level and it is what compels them to play that much harder and win. When the Warriors play well in the fourth it is because Monty is banging his marker down on his clipboard extra hard and barking and urging his guys forward. At Stanford he used to jump off the bench and yell and flail his arms histerically to get his guys to play harder. But with the Warriors too often he seems to be pleading with them to play harder when he should be demanding it. Monty is still developing as a coach and when his confidence peaks so too will the mental toughness and fortunes of the Warriors.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:50 pm
Musselman or Monty?

Why was Musselman let go?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:10 am
{Insert Uptempo Dunleavy theory} :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:18 am
O.G. broe wrote:{Insert Uptempo Dunleavy theory} :roll:

That's the truth, though. Muss tried benching Dunleavy prematurely (at least, in the eyes of management). They didn't agree with his methods (ie, using the best players, instead of simply the youngest). It was a conflict of interest; Muss wanted to WIN NOW (which probably would have climaxed just short of an 8th seed) and management wanted him to develop the talent for later years. Part of developing talent is playing them (something Muss had a problem doing with players like Dunleavy). Eric Musselman was let go because he couldn't follow through with Mully's grand scheme.

With the recent benching of Dunleavy (a very publically made move by Monty), it seems that Mullin has finally opened his eyes to the fact that Dunleavy won't live up to the hype (although it's 6 months too late).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:21 pm
Dunleavy is potentially the glue that holds this squad together. If he shot a little better nobody would complain. He is a great passer, penetrator, rebounder, a shockingly good finisher for a guy that has very little in the way of hops, and a greatly improving defender. His shot just isn't there but he can and will improve there. Regardless the shots he does make are often clutch, game winning or game changing shots. Listen, Dunleavy has perhaps the most to learn of any of the Warriors about his position but simply has the longest way to go. A ball-handling, scoring, defending, rebounding small forward in this league is simply not made over night. Give him time and it will pay dividends.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:34 pm
thinkingwarriors wrote:Dunleavy is potentially the glue that holds this squad together. If he shot a little better nobody would complain. He is a great passer, penetrator, rebounder, a shockingly good finisher for a guy that has very little in the way of hops, and a greatly improving defender. His shot just isn't there but he can and will improve there. Regardless the shots he does make are often clutch, game winning or game changing shots. Listen, Dunleavy has perhaps the most to learn of any of the Warriors about his position but simply has the longest way to go. A ball-handling, scoring, defending, rebounding small forward in this league is simply not made over night. Give him time and it will pay dividends.

:D =D> Testify, brother!
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