The 3 Levels of Franchise Playerdom

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:25 pm
This is for reference, as I sometimes refer to guys on other teams as "type c" or "type b" franchise players and I have to remind myself that you guys don't know what I'm talking about. For that purpose, I've created this thread to clarify and categorize the various types of franchise players in the league. For clarification: this is a CURRENT list, so guys like KG or Tim Duncan, who may have been Type A at an earlier point, are now listed at their current spot. Let's start from the bottom up:

"Potential" Franchise Players

Description: These dudes got the gifts, they just need to prove they belong. If you're on this list, that means you climax today somewhere between unlisted to just a shave below a Type B player (and those are the TOP guys on this list)... But the best is yet to come and (clearly) some of these dudes will be B's and A's before they're done:

Derrick Favors, NJ
Andrea Bargnani, TOR
Kyrie Irving, CLE
Greg Monroe, DET
Brandon Jennings, MIL
John Wall, WAS
Stephen Curry, GSW
Blake Griffin, LAC
DeMarcus Cousins, SAC
Tyreke Evans, SAC
Eric Gordon, NOH
Danillo Gallinari, DEN
Ricky Rubio, MIN

Type C Level Franchise Players

Description: Star Numbers, but no heavy-handed effect on whether or not their team is in an NBA Finals conversation. A Type C is what most journalists refer to as "a nice piece to the puzzle", but they're often made out by their hometown fans to be of superstar elk. Includes:

Kevin Garnett, BOS
Paul Pierce, BOS
Andre Iguodala, PHI
Danny Granger, IND
Monta Ellis, MIL
Josh Smith, ATL
Al Horford, ATL
David Lee, GSW
Andrew Bogut, GSW
Pau Gasol, LAL
Andrew Bynum, LAL
Steve Nash, PHO
Jason Kidd, DAL
Kevin Martin, HOU
Luis Scola, HOU
Mark Gasol, MEM
Tim Duncan, SAS
Tony Parker, SAS
James Harden, OKC
LeMarcus Aldridge, POR
Devin Harris, UTA

Type B Level Franchise Players

Description: Star Numbers + Occasional Team Success directly attributed to them, Type B's are "superstars" but not quite "legendary"... And if their team loses, the hometown faithful usually forgives a Type B from blame. Type B's can successfully be the biggest piece to a puzzle, but only on a stacked team... And they can easily look like Type C guys in the wrong setting (see DWill in NJ). Examples:

Rajon Rondo, BOS
Deron Williams, NJ
Carmelo Anthony, NY
A'Mare Stoudamire, NY
Joe Johnson, ATL
Chris Paul, LAC
Dirk Nowitski, DAL
Zack Randolph, MEM
Manu Ginobli, SAS
Kevin Love, MIN
Russell Westbrook, OKC

Type A Level Franchise Players

Description: Star Numbers + a high level of team success almost always directly attributed to them; the guys you trade anyone and everyone to get. These guys put their teams in NBA Finals territory just by virtue of being on the roster. 

Derrick Rose, CHI
Dwayne Wade, MIA
Dwight Howard, ORL
LeBron James, MIA
Kevin Durant, OKC

Transcendent Franchise Player

Description: Like Michael, Magic, and Bird, this is a dude who was dominant (talent-wise) since day 1 and is part of that all-but-impossible classification of player who never slows down and continues to be a league-wide MVP candidate until the day he retires. Today, there is but one ageless wonder and his name is:

Kobe Bryant, LAL
























... Sadly, the only team without a representative above, is the Charlotte Bobcats. 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:29 am
I'll chime 32 if you don't mind.


Nice player list and I agree with some and not with others.

I think that Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Durant are clear 1st level players, with maybe CPaul, Deron and Dwight also. I say this because no one player can make a team a winner by himself, as was shown with the Lakers right after Shaq left and it took that team a few seasons to make the playoffs if I remember right. Lebron had that same situation in Cleveland, if he did take a bad team a little less further than Kobe did with his. With one or two good players around them, those players I listed take their teams very far in the season and playoffs. At their best, Duncan and Garnett would be on this list as well.

2nd level, I'd say players such as Derrick Rose (who is on the edge of being on the 1st level), Dirk Nowitzki, Russell Westbrook and Nash.. Rose could be considered like CPaul and Deron, but I see the Bulls winning almost every game without Rose and that shows how good the other players are, what good team setup they have and what a good coach they have, so he isn't as good as I thought he was. Dirk has always been a superstar, but unable to lift his team that far without a heap of good players around him, having fallen with even a few good player around him. Westbrook has been amazing and without him, Thunder are nowhere near as good. Nash is the player that makes the players around him better more than anyone else currently in the nba. He is amazing that way and even this season, with what looks like a bottom five team, he has them almost in the playoffs.

3rd level, well there are a heap really. Players that are allstar caliber, maybe upper allstar caliber, could really be put in this category, depending on whether they are more about numbers (Monta being the example here :mrgreen: ) Players like Love (on the edge of being 2nd level, but even with pretty good players around him his team still is no better than 50% with him playing) Duncan, Garnett, Pierce, Bynum, PGasol, Carmelo, Bosh, Parker, Ginobili, ZRandolph, JSmith and AJefferson.


That's my opinion. Nice topic and good conversation starter. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:44 pm
Great analysis, migs. Lemmie throw you a bone and we'll go off one guy to start off:

Deron Williams.

Can you make me a case that he's anything above a 2nd tier franchise player? Think he belongs with the elite? I'll give you this much: he's easily the most brutally imposing point guard in the game; so much strength for a one, and perhaps best seen with Magic Johnson, a 1 that can get into the paint - literally - whenever he wants is a tough, tough cover for any team.

That being said: does he make his team win?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:49 am
Deron won pretty well in Utah, while not having much talent around him, outside of Boozer and then Millsap. I think Utah has more talent now than when he was there, just very young. I think he is now a bit better than CPaul and that if you replace Curry with him next season, as an example, the team would be championship caliber.

That's just my opinion though. Most would say Rose is better than Deron, but as I said, the way the Bulls win without him and don't exactly win much more with him, don't win more at all actually, means he is mostly an individual talent that is flashy. Again, my opinion, but Deron makes teammates betterand he would show that again on a moderately talented team, like he had in Utah.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:32 pm
I agree with where Deron and CP3 are on 32's list, given what we've seen from them versus Rose. With that said I'd much rather have Deron on any team over any other PG in the league. IMO, he's the most complete package at PG, but Rose gets all the love/hype for obvious reasons (dude is ridiculous).

I also agree that a Curry for Deron swap would make us a contender.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:54 pm
Well, lemmie ask it another way:

If Durant or Dwight or even DRose are on that same Nets team instead of DWill, do they miss the playoffs this badly? If we lose tonight, we're tied with Jersey, record-wise. That being said: Willians didn't seem to make that much of a difference... At least not in the win-loss column.

And regarding that Curry-for-Williams swap... Does that fiction feature a hobbled, 2011-'12 Curry... or a healthy, fully recovered Curry (like next year)?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:23 pm
Well, Deron was out a bit himself this season, though not a whole lot. I don't think either Dwight or Durant could have made the Nets win more than they have this season. Maybe both could have made them have a few more wind, but no playoffs. Dwight has more talent around him in Orlando then what Nets minus Deron have. Deron makes teammates better, more than perhapes any other player other than Nash and about the same as CPaul.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:38 am
great thread 32... I barely check this forum but it's certainly a discussion creator.

One epic fail of yours is

Tim Duncan

That dudes potentially going to retire with more titles then Kobe Bryant and has been a impact player since his inception.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:04 pm
Ah, yes, pawno, reluctant at first, I have become an enormous supporter of Duncan's legendary status. That being said: THIS Tim Duncan is NOT the Tim Duncan that made the Spurs a constant threat to the crown! Kobe Bryant hasn't lost a fraction of a step; he's still a perennial MVP candidate, he's headed towards a scoring title, and his team remains a constant championship contender. Duncan - for all he's accomplished and with total acknowledgement that he can still turn it on for 25, 12, and 5 every blue moon - is no longer the dominant man he was as few as 4 years ago.

To finish off with Deron Williams: I simply don't think I can agree with you there, migs. I believe Howard on that Nets team with Farmar, Morrow, and Brooks to hit open jumpers, DeShawn Stevenson off the bench, Gerald Wallace going ham... I see him getting them to the playoffs. And I see it happening with every other Type A guy as well. That being said: my fellow Type B's (CP3, Manu, Dirk) would not have done any better than DWill. Those guys, like Williams, can absolutely rocket a competent, well-rounded team through the playoffs... But they are definitely more dependent in teammates than Kobe or Dwight or LeBron.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:44 pm
32 wrote:Ah, yes, pawno, reluctant at first, I have become an enormous supporter of Duncan's legendary status. That being said: THIS Tim Duncan is NOT the Tim Duncan that made the Spurs a constant threat to the crown! Kobe Bryant hasn't lost a fraction of a step; he's still a perennial MVP candidate, he's headed towards a scoring title, and his team remains a constant championship contender. Duncan - for all he's accomplished and with total acknowledgement that he can still turn it on for 25, 12, and 5 every blue moon - is no longer the dominant man he was as few as 4 years ago.

To finish off with Deron Williams: I simply don't think I can agree with you there, migs. I believe Howard on that Nets team with Farmar, Morrow, and Brooks to hit open jumpers, DeShawn Stevenson off the bench, Gerald Wallace going ham... I see him getting them to the playoffs. And I see it happening with every other Type A guy as well. That being said: my fellow Type B's (CP3, Manu, Dirk) would not have done any better than DWill. Those guys, like Williams, can absolutely rocket a competent, well-rounded team through the playoffs... But they are definitely more dependent in teammates than Kobe or Dwight or LeBron.


Well I disagree with you when you say he is not the dominant man he was 4 years ago.

He is still that guy, But because he is game managed by the greatest coach ever (not named Phil or Red of course) he's minutes have declined to save his longevity.

I look at a guy like KG & Duncan & I see the KG the kid fresh out of high school maybe 2 years at the most ready to announce his retirement, he's getting injuries more often & the spells on the sideline seem to be a little longer... But then I look on the flip side and I see Tim Duncan & I know that the kid who did 4 years of College Still has 3 more good years in him before he will be transitioned into a role player position of cagey vet.

Too cut KG some credit the Wolves/Celtics teams he has been on have been weaker then any Spurs team of the last 10 years. Doc Rivers/Flip Saunders ran KG into the ground cause they didn't have 100% job security... Poppavich could have a Bobcats 2012 type season proceeded by another one and they probably still wouldn't fire him.

But to say he is not dominate anymore 32.... Hmm!!! Did you take minutes into account.

(like I said, love the thread discussion... I'm just trying to open your eyes) :agrue:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:25 pm
I just don't think any other player would have made the Nets win much more than Deron would have, but we'll just disagree. Don't forget GWallace only arrived there at the trade deadline or maybe New Jersey (fully healthy with BLopez there most of the season which he wasn't also) otherwise that team would have won quite a bit more.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:18 pm
PAWNO wrote:
32 wrote:Ah, yes, pawno, reluctant at first, I have become an enormous supporter of Duncan's legendary status. That being said: THIS Tim Duncan is NOT the Tim Duncan that made the Spurs a constant threat to the crown! Kobe Bryant hasn't lost a fraction of a step; he's still a perennial MVP candidate, he's headed towards a scoring title, and his team remains a constant championship contender. Duncan - for all he's accomplished and with total acknowledgement that he can still turn it on for 25, 12, and 5 every blue moon - is no longer the dominant man he was as few as 4 years ago.

To finish off with Deron Williams: I simply don't think I can agree with you there, migs. I believe Howard on that Nets team with Farmar, Morrow, and Brooks to hit open jumpers, DeShawn Stevenson off the bench, Gerald Wallace going ham... I see him getting them to the playoffs. And I see it happening with every other Type A guy as well. That being said: my fellow Type B's (CP3, Manu, Dirk) would not have done any better than DWill. Those guys, like Williams, can absolutely rocket a competent, well-rounded team through the playoffs... But they are definitely more dependent in teammates than Kobe or Dwight or LeBron.


Well I disagree with you when you say he is not the dominant man he was 4 years ago.

He is still that guy, But because he is game managed by the greatest coach ever (not named Phil or Red of course) he's minutes have declined to save his longevity.

I look at a guy like KG & Duncan & I see the KG the kid fresh out of high school maybe 2 years at the most ready to announce his retirement, he's getting injuries more often & the spells on the sideline seem to be a little longer... But then I look on the flip side and I see Tim Duncan & I know that the kid who did 4 years of College Still has 3 more good years in him before he will be transitioned into a role player position of cagey vet.

Too cut KG some credit the Wolves/Celtics teams he has been on have been weaker then any Spurs team of the last 10 years. Doc Rivers/Flip Saunders ran KG into the ground cause they didn't have 100% job security... Poppavich could have a Bobcats 2012 type season proceeded by another one and they probably still wouldn't fire him.

But to say he is not dominate anymore 32.... Hmm!!! Did you take minutes into account.

(like I said, love the thread discussion... I'm just trying to open your eyes) :agrue:

Sure... But even still: can you say he's among the highest level of players in the league when his team puts him on the floor for less than 30 minutes most nights? Minute manipulation can make him look more efficient, but the Spurs would give him 35 minutes if he could go for that long (and, truth is, he can't anymore, on most nights).

Dude was a Type A for 10 or 11 years (that, alone, says something). But to me? Duncan may still be the most IMPORTANT player on his team, but he might not be the BEST player in San Antonio anymore (a credit to Ginobli, more than a knock on Duncan). He's in his late-80's Kareem phase; still the man, but no longer the baddest in the business.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:29 pm
... Although I have been wrong before.

And these playoffs are making what I said look real ignorant and pawno brilliant. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:37 pm
And I don't see Gay on any of those lists. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:33 pm
Carmelo Anthony should be a C, not a B. That's all I have to say about the list.
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