Trade Monta already!!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:25 pm
I'd give a higher grade to Udoh - there weren't many trade discussions out there that didn't involve him.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:46 pm
Well, and especially after nights like tonight, he definitely seems like he could be of greater use. But as with Lee, I think Udoh's best return value comes with him in uniform. You'd be hard pressed to convince an opposing GM he's more than a one note, undersized shot-blocker. Sure, there WAS that guy named Zo in Miami, but there was also that fool Emeka in Charlotte (or, more precisely, that fool Adonal here). Bottom line is: a 6'9" power center doesn't grow on trees, but it's not hard to find alternatives.

So far, the Serge Ibaka comparison is spotty at best.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:09 am
32 wrote:
WarriorHawk87 wrote:This seems like the perfect time to trade Monta, his value could not be higher right now.

For who? Whose available that would net us equal return?


Well I haven't scoured the market, but he is also a fragile guy and one bad injury could leave us having to pay him a lot for doing nothing. I just don't think he fits into what this team is trying to do in the long run and with his value being so high I don't think the team should pass up this opportunity.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:11 am
32 wrote:Sure. If you had to value them in terms of grade, I'd say our tradable assets rank in at:

Stephen Curry = B+
Klay Thompson = C+
Brandon Rush = C
Dorrell Wright = C
David Lee = D
Monta Ellis = D
Epke Udoh = D-

Everyone else (Tyler, Robinson, McGuire, Jenkins, Biedrins) are failing (aka, they're salary correctors in trades and that's it).

Curry, while not an A-level asset, is the most attractive piece you have: teams are willing to give up decent compensation; type c franchise players (Kevin Martin, Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol) and a B-level prospect or two are the most probably back pay you'd get for Steph. Maybe a package of Devin Harris and Derrick Favors is what you're looking at.

Thompson, Wright, and Rush are affordable, role player talent that can be used to sweeten a Curry deal into a type b franchise player (A'Mare, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo).

Ellis and Lee are almost purely bad-for-bad contract deals. Combining one with a C-level guy will net you a talented bad contract the likes of Rudy Gay, Carlos Boozer, or Andre Iguodala.

No combination on this roster will trade you an A level franchise talent (Howard, Carmelo, Durant, Paul).

That being said... I think it'd be smart, at this stage, to take a flier on a bad contract wing (like Gay or Iggy) for Ellis + a couple decent throw-ins, but it seems like the most value we'll get for Lee is on the basketball court and I don't think it's possible to upgrade that position by trading him.


I will admit I am not the most educated guy when it comes to NBA contracts and how the payroll system works, but why would you say Monta's value is that low right now?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:27 am
WarriorHawk87 wrote:
32 wrote:Sure. If you had to value them in terms of grade, I'd say our tradable assets rank in at:

Stephen Curry = B+
Klay Thompson = C+
Brandon Rush = C
Dorrell Wright = C
David Lee = D
Monta Ellis = D
Epke Udoh = D-

Everyone else (Tyler, Robinson, McGuire, Jenkins, Biedrins) are failing (aka, they're salary correctors in trades and that's it).

Curry, while not an A-level asset, is the most attractive piece you have: teams are willing to give up decent compensation; type c franchise players (Kevin Martin, Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol) and a B-level prospect or two are the most probably back pay you'd get for Steph. Maybe a package of Devin Harris and Derrick Favors is what you're looking at.

Thompson, Wright, and Rush are affordable, role player talent that can be used to sweeten a Curry deal into a type b franchise player (A'Mare, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo).

Ellis and Lee are almost purely bad-for-bad contract deals. Combining one with a C-level guy will net you a talented bad contract the likes of Rudy Gay, Carlos Boozer, or Andre Iguodala.

No combination on this roster will trade you an A level franchise talent (Howard, Carmelo, Durant, Paul).

That being said... I think it'd be smart, at this stage, to take a flier on a bad contract wing (like Gay or Iggy) for Ellis + a couple decent throw-ins, but it seems like the most value we'll get for Lee is on the basketball court and I don't think it's possible to upgrade that position by trading him.


I will admit I am not the most educated guy when it comes to NBA contracts and how the payroll system works, but why would you say Monta's value is that low right now?


It's simple, really. It's not because he doesn't produce or that he's injury prone or anything like that. He's undersized and doesn't play defense. Teams wouldn't know whether to play him at the one or the two.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:07 pm
WarriorHawk87 wrote:
32 wrote:Sure. If you had to value them in terms of grade, I'd say our tradable assets rank in at:

Stephen Curry = B+
Klay Thompson = C+
Brandon Rush = C
Dorrell Wright = C
David Lee = D
Monta Ellis = D
Epke Udoh = D-

Everyone else (Tyler, Robinson, McGuire, Jenkins, Biedrins) are failing (aka, they're salary correctors in trades and that's it).

Curry, while not an A-level asset, is the most attractive piece you have: teams are willing to give up decent compensation; type c franchise players (Kevin Martin, Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol) and a B-level prospect or two are the most probably back pay you'd get for Steph. Maybe a package of Devin Harris and Derrick Favors is what you're looking at.

Thompson, Wright, and Rush are affordable, role player talent that can be used to sweeten a Curry deal into a type b franchise player (A'Mare, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo).

Ellis and Lee are almost purely bad-for-bad contract deals. Combining one with a C-level guy will net you a talented bad contract the likes of Rudy Gay, Carlos Boozer, or Andre Iguodala.

No combination on this roster will trade you an A level franchise talent (Howard, Carmelo, Durant, Paul).

That being said... I think it'd be smart, at this stage, to take a flier on a bad contract wing (like Gay or Iggy) for Ellis + a couple decent throw-ins, but it seems like the most value we'll get for Lee is on the basketball court and I don't think it's possible to upgrade that position by trading him.


I will admit I am not the most educated guy when it comes to NBA contracts and how the payroll system works, but why would you say Monta's value is that low right now?

8th Ave pretty much nailed it. Other teams aren't stupid; they understand how 25 points on 42% from the field works. Give or take 5 free throws, that's an 11-for-26 night on a regular basis. Ellis has finally become what his critics have always dismissed him as: a volume shooter. And at around $11 million per season, you're not gonna find many suitors for an expensive, undersized volume-shooting combo guard.

That being said, M8E has proven that he'll back down and play a sidekick role on a team with a bonafide star (and he shoots much, much closer to 50% when he's not responsible for the lion's share of iso plays and outside jumpers. The knowledge that he's a top shelf (albeit, expensive and undersized) sidekick means that you can find value for him from a team looking for a final piece... Unfortunately, those teams are usually trying to better themselves without giving up much talent in return, but Ellis' contract means that (a) you take back a talented, bloated contract with zero picks or (b) you get a pick, but you'll be on the hook for a Hedo Turkakglu level contract.

Sooo, short answer: Lee and Ellis don't yield you very much in trade terms because of their salaries. Unless (as previously stated), you throw them in with Curry.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:12 pm
32 wrote:
WarriorHawk87 wrote:
32 wrote:Sure. If you had to value them in terms of grade, I'd say our tradable assets rank in at:

Stephen Curry = B+
Klay Thompson = C+
Brandon Rush = C
Dorrell Wright = C
David Lee = D
Monta Ellis = D
Epke Udoh = D-

Everyone else (Tyler, Robinson, McGuire, Jenkins, Biedrins) are failing (aka, they're salary correctors in trades and that's it).

Curry, while not an A-level asset, is the most attractive piece you have: teams are willing to give up decent compensation; type c franchise players (Kevin Martin, Stephen Jackson, Pau Gasol) and a B-level prospect or two are the most probably back pay you'd get for Steph. Maybe a package of Devin Harris and Derrick Favors is what you're looking at.

Thompson, Wright, and Rush are affordable, role player talent that can be used to sweeten a Curry deal into a type b franchise player (A'Mare, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo).

Ellis and Lee are almost purely bad-for-bad contract deals. Combining one with a C-level guy will net you a talented bad contract the likes of Rudy Gay, Carlos Boozer, or Andre Iguodala.

No combination on this roster will trade you an A level franchise talent (Howard, Carmelo, Durant, Paul).

That being said... I think it'd be smart, at this stage, to take a flier on a bad contract wing (like Gay or Iggy) for Ellis + a couple decent throw-ins, but it seems like the most value we'll get for Lee is on the basketball court and I don't think it's possible to upgrade that position by trading him.


I will admit I am not the most educated guy when it comes to NBA contracts and how the payroll system works, but why would you say Monta's value is that low right now?

8th Ave pretty much nailed it. Other teams aren't stupid; they understand how 25 points on 42% from the field works. Give or take 5 free throws, that's an 11-for-26 night on a regular basis. Ellis has finally become what his critics have always dismissed him as: a volume shooter. And at around $11 million per season, you're not gonna find many suitors for an expensive, undersized volume-shooting combo guard.

That being said, M8E has proven that he'll back down and play a sidekick role on a team with a bonafide star (and he shoots much, much closer to 50% when he's not responsible for the lion's share of iso plays and outside jumpers. The knowledge that he's a top shelf (albeit, expensive and undersized) sidekick means that you can find value for him from a team looking for a final piece... Unfortunately, those teams are usually trying to better themselves without giving up much talent in return, but Ellis' contract means that (a) you take back a talented, bloated contract with zero picks or (b) you get a pick, but you'll be on the hook for a Hedo Turkakglu level contract.

Sooo, short answer: Lee and Ellis don't yield you very much in trade terms because of their salaries. Unless (as previously stated), you throw them in with Curry.



I am sure there are teams that want him out there, can could use him in a starting role. However a team that is rebuilding won't want his contract, and teams that aren't rebuilding don't want to give up what we would like in return. Can he start as a SG in this league? Hell ya. Is 11 million too much? I don't think so. That is not bad for a talented SG.

If you played him next to a Russel Westbrook with, Durant and Serge "I block you", and K Perkins, then you would have an awsome starting 5. That is a case where he would work well as the 3 best player. He can score, and could still get 20+ shots. His efficiency would go up. OKC has the space, but they don't have the trade assest, nor are they a team that likes to be in the luxury because they are small market team. Orlando is another team that would love to have him with Howard, would be a good 1, 2 punch. But they don't have the trade assest either.

I think Monta gets a bad rap because he has never been a star on a good team. And then he got a bad reputation for being immature (which was true to begin with). There are a not of talanted players on bad teams though. Look at John Wall. If the wizards never win, then will he be a bench player? Is he not good enough? His losing streak has a lot to do with the "team" more then his individual talent.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:35 pm
Monta will be really good on a veteran team like Boston or the Lakers who are getting old and need some younger energy. I think Monta would thrive if he was the 2nd option behind Bryant or Pierce. Too bad neither of those teams would pull the trigger for Monta. I know damn well they wouldn't part with Gasol/Bynum or Rondo. I don't blame them though; it would be a bigger risk on their end.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:11 pm
The Warriors have 9 wins and here are some facts. The team is 7-5 when Ellis takes less than 20 shots game. Yes, thats 7 out of 9 wins. They're 4-0 when Ellis takes less than 15 shots a game. So when Ellis doesn't have the ball in his hand, this team is actually better. Then there was that one game where he had 12 assists and 4 points in a win. If he could do that on a consistent basis, then I'd suggest he be the starting PG and not think twice about it. He's topped the 40 point mark 8 times in his career. Out of those 8, they only won 3 of them. He also played 18 games in a season and this team won 29 games. Monta returns and plays all but 16 games and this team wins 26 games.

So, does Ellis really make this team better or worse? I would want them to trade Ellis, but the truth is, they probably won't get much in return for him. He's a 6th man on a good team. Either that or a 2nd or 3rd option, so there isn't a lot of value there. The most they can hope for are young players or a good player with a bad contract. Which is why I'd love an Ellis to the Sixers for Nocioni and Turner trade. They take a questionable contract in Nocioni, but also gain a young talent in Turner.

Or...Send Ellis, Wright and Biedrins to the Magic for Reddick, Duhon, Turkuglu and Anderson. At this point, I think giving Howard a reason to stay is more important than winning games and a guy like Ellis can make Dwight think twice about leaving Orlando. The Warriors get depth and will get more out of Turkuglu than they could out of Biedrins.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:24 pm
BayAreaHoopz wrote:The Warriors have 9 wins and here are some facts. The team is 7-5 when Ellis takes less than 20 shots game. Yes, thats 7 out of 9 wins. They're 4-0 when Ellis takes less than 15 shots a game. So when Ellis doesn't have the ball in his hand, this team is actually better. Then there was that one game where he had 12 assists and 4 points in a win. If he could do that on a consistent basis, then I'd suggest he be the starting PG and not think twice about it. He's topped the 40 point mark 8 times in his career. Out of those 8, they only won 3 of them. He also played 18 games in a season and this team won 29 games. Monta returns and plays all but 16 games and this team wins 26 games.

So, does Ellis really make this team better or worse? I would want them to trade Ellis, but the truth is, they probably won't get much in return for him. He's a 6th man on a good team. Either that or a 2nd or 3rd option, so there isn't a lot of value there. The most they can hope for are young players or a good player with a bad contract. Which is why I'd love an Ellis to the Sixers for Nocioni and Turner trade. They take a questionable contract in Nocioni, but also gain a young talent in Turner.

Or...Send Ellis, Wright and Biedrins to the Magic for Reddick, Duhon, Turkuglu and Anderson. At this point, I think giving Howard a reason to stay is more important than winning games and a guy like Ellis can make Dwight think twice about leaving Orlando. The Warriors get depth and will get more out of Turkuglu than they could out of Biedrins.

You are on point in your analysis of how other teams view Ellis. You can't discredit his detractors by pointing out that the Warriors are bad with or without him. And (as you stated), the team has looked much better without him on the floor. As a fan of Ellis, this depresses me. But the fact remains, if that's the case, he's a waste of $11 million. David Lee is not being head-and-shoulders outplayed by his back-up on both ends of the floor. You can't say the same about Ellis. And if Klay Thompson hasn't yet proven that he deserves minutes over Ellis, Brandon Rush certainly has. It's borderline ridiculous how much better the Warriors look when Ellis is off the floor. We fans aren't crazy; we all see it clear as day. And despite Bob Fitzgerald's charismatic demeanor, he's an identified spin doctor that insists the Warriors are better than they are.

Has anyone else begun to groan when Ellis gets the ball on a wing isolation play, where Lee comes out to set him a screen? Isn't it bothersome that but a few years ago, he worked a pick magically, hit around 55% on midrange jumpers alone, and was among the league's most graceful lay-up contortionists?

What happened?

Nowadays, his jumper seems flat, he forces his dribble into helpless double coverage, and save for nights where he almost seems to be obnoxiously unselfish, he's a black hole. (What i mean by "obnoxiously unselfish": have you ever seen an advanced child play ball with a bunch of younger beginners, where you KNOW the coach told him he's not allowed to shoot? You know those baseline zip passes out to the 3, that Ellis seems to throw because he thinks it's a flashy assist? Or those point-blank drops to Biedrins at the hole, where he certainly could have just finished it himself but borderline overpasses it? That's what I picture when someone says Monta is being unselfish.)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:35 pm
No panic mode to trade Monta, at $11 mill per year there are worse contracts out there. Monta has had his issues this year, but the Curry injury really is what hurt the warriors the most because the teams just zoned in on Monta.

If the right trade comes pull the trigger, but I wouldn't rush and trade just for the sake trading. With Curry back the team will get into some type of rhythm and winning cures all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:39 pm
GSW Hoops Fan wrote:I am sure there are teams that want him out there, can could use him in a starting role. However a team that is rebuilding won't want his contract, and teams that aren't rebuilding don't want to give up what we would like in return. Can he start as a SG in this league? Hell ya. Is 11 million too much? I don't think so. That is not bad for a talented SG.

If you played him next to a Russel Westbrook with, Durant and Serge "I block you", and K Perkins, then you would have an awsome starting 5. That is a case where he would work well as the 3 best player. He can score, and could still get 20+ shots. His efficiency would go up. OKC has the space, but they don't have the trade assest, nor are they a team that likes to be in the luxury because they are small market team. Orlando is another team that would love to have him with Howard, would be a good 1, 2 punch. But they don't have the trade assest either.

I think Monta gets a bad rap because he has never been a star on a good team. And then he got a bad reputation for being immature (which was true to begin with). There are a not of talanted players on bad teams though. Look at John Wall. If the wizards never win, then will he be a bench player? Is he not good enough? His losing streak has a lot to do with the "team" more then his individual talent.

Ehhhh. I think you could put just about any SG on OKC and it'll look good...

And, yes, if the Wizards get to the playoffs once in John Wall'a first 7 or 8 seasons, I would say his team might wanna look to see what they can get for him too.

I didn't call Ellis a loser or say he wasn't a good player; I said he's undersized (prototypical SG height = 6'6") and i said he's overpaid (he is; run the numbers on what a high-scoring 6'3" combo guard is making, you got Lou Williams, Ben Gordon, Jason Terry... See what they make compared to Ellis). There are 3 guards that size with powerful explosiveness (ie, can dunk over guys bigger than Barbosa) and THEY are franchise level talents (Russell Westbrook, Derek Rose, DWade), but players like Ellis don't belong in the same shoe shop as those 3. Raw, powerful athleticism? Pay the man. But volume shooters of similar size without the power? Dime a dozen.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:30 pm
If we trade Monta, we should try to get something like McGee and the Wizards #1. The Wizards are an absolute mess, and unless they land a player who can change their entire culture like Davis, I think they will look to move their pick. They have plently of young talent, just need some veterans. Monta would be a solid fit next to Wall who is 6'5 and one of the better defensive PGs in the league. He is also a pure PG, who can help set Monta up better than Curry. He would also provide them with a go-to scorer which they don't have.

Of course we'd probably have to throw something in to sweeten the deal. I wouldn't mind giving up Udoh in that deal if we got their #1 and could get McGee to sign a 1 year tender going into next year. Draft someone like MKG, Barnes or Thomas Robinson (or is we could luck out and get Davis then that would be amazing).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:56 pm
Mehhhhh. The Wizards don't need a shooting guard. They're toying with the idea of letting Nick Young walk because they like Jordan Crawford so much... And I doubt Young will make as much money as Ellis. You really think they'd give us their pick AND McGee?


I have a bad feeling he'll end up in Boston... And we won't get Rondo back. Salary dump or no, I'd hate to walk away with Ray Allen and Brandon Bass. We need a center. Or a lottery pick.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:10 pm
32 wrote:Mehhhhh. The Wizards don't need a shooting guard. They're toying with the idea of letting Nick Young walk because they like Jordan Crawford so much... And I doubt Young will make as much money as Ellis. You really think they'd give us their pick AND McGee?


I have a bad feeling he'll end up in Boston... And we won't get Rondo back. Salary dump or no, I'd hate to walk away with Ray Allen and Brandon Bass. We need a center. Or a lottery pick.


I think they'll let Young walk because when his shot doesn't fall he has not impact on the game. Crawford is promising but not starter material yet, and McGee is a RFA.

We could sweeten the deal by throwing in Dorrell and Kwame's expiring for Blatche (who Washington wants out of there) and give a huge post scoring threat to our bench.

Curry/ ?
Rush/ Klay
MKG/ McGuire
Lee/ Blatche/ Udoh
McGee/ Udoh/ Tyler

is a solid starting lineup and bench.

I'm with you on the fact that we need a lottery pick. I'd rather have that than Allen and Bass or some of the other realistic veteran players we could get for Monta.
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