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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:21 am
the problem with Monta is

not just his defense is horrible...(all of it...reactive instincts, effort, mentality, etc.),
but add to that his undersized tweener size and it just compiles his defensive liability.
he flat out can't guard guys, especially the ones who are 6'6+. he's like another Corey Maggette on D but with less size.

in 7 yrs, you'd think he'd get better. you'd think he'd grow and lead his team by making the effort, not make mental mistakes, etc. yet he still has one of the worst defensive IQ's on the court. to say it's the coach's or systems fault, reminds me of the same people defending 49ers Alex Smith, saying it's the different OC's fault. I think Monta lovers should at least concede that Monta does not inspire a lot of confidence in his defense and hasn't really given us any reason to think otherwise after 7 yrs.

the Mavs situation is not comparable to the Warriors and not typical. the shorter backcourt only works for them because they have very good defenders at every position.

Jason Kidd makes a key difference, since he's a big n strong PG who can guard 1's and 2's and even guarded Lebron in the Finals (did a great job too). Steph Curry is no Kidd and he's not going anywhere unless it's for Cp3 or Dwight. the better comparison to the Mavs would be Barrea / Terry to Steph / Ellis....and I really doubt that that Mavs backcourt could last for 35+min a game without getting abused. it works for them because Barrea is more of a bench/energy PG and they have so much flexibility and help if Barrea starts to get ownd, with Kidd and Stevenson being excellent defenders. along with Marion and a beast like Tyson Chandler helping if they get beat. A Barrea / Terry backcourt on the Warriors wouldn't do jack.

Curry / Ellis hasn't and I doubt will ever work...especially considering the lack of defense which surrounds them. . Curry / Ellis / Lee = the worst defensive trio in the league (and they just so happen to be the W's building blocks). it needs to be broken up or maybe surrounded by an all-defense SF and C lol. Curry's not going anywhere. D Lee's not going anywhere with his contract. which leaves Ellis...coming off a great season (stat-wise), peak value. it makes too much sense to try to trade him. didn't he also say he "wants nothing to do with David Lee off the court" or something like that? my thinking is cash in his value now (pref. for Iggy) before anything starts brewing and he demands a trade ala S-Jax.


lastly, to me it really comes down to...is Monta's 1 thing that he's good at - scoring - so incredible that it trumps his many liabilities....(defense, character, chemistry killing, etc) ? not to mention that as long as he's on the roster, building the team will always have to cater to his tweener liability. same problem Iverson had.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:54 pm
I read some very good post's here and i believe all of you made some very good remarks. So let's get some things straight. We all want our team to get better, no argument about that. We all want to get better in D. We all know a star SG can't get you a star center via trade. So the questions that are debatable r:
Can we get better on D with our current roster?
I believe we can, but i don't believe a lot better. If we want to be really better on D we have to make trades and that means that some hard decisions have to be made.

Is Ellis the problem on D?
Of course not the only one. At least 3 of our starters are dismal defenders. That starts the whole trade discussions and by trying to find the least painful and more likely trade possible we end up in Ellis. Why? Because Curry seams to have more future in him and Lee has little trade value due to his contract.

So if we remain as we are let's hope the new coaching stuff can make a noticeable difference. The player's will respond initially and if they see results coming our way they will stay tuned and try even harder.
If we don't, i believe that we must remain positive. That means many fans will lose a favorite player but if they see results they will also stay tuned. Anyway i just hope this Lockout will end soon, and i wish you all a nice Summer.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:04 pm
Curry didn't have that 2nd year leap we all thought he was going to. Some due to injury (because of his weak ass ankles) but still ... people are writing off Monta much too soon, and praising Curry's "future" way too much. Tbh if we had to move one at this point I'd move Curry. We'd probably get much better value and its not like Steph is a defensive stopper. He's arguably the weakest defender on the team.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:50 pm
Beast Mode wrote:Curry didn't have that 2nd year leap we all thought he was going to. Some due to injury (because of his weak ass ankles) but still ... people are writing off Monta much too soon, and praising Curry's "future" way too much. Tbh if we had to move one at this point I'd move Curry. We'd probably get much better value and its not like Steph is a defensive stopper. He's arguably the weakest defender on the team.



Pretty hard to do and pretty extreme, but I'd trade both guys of the backcourt. Heck, I'd trade Lee and obviously AB as well. It just takes a team or GM wanting change and seeing great potential with our current backcourt, which there is, just looks a bit grim in that potential ever being reached
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:04 am
Beast Mode wrote:Josh Smith at the 3 = omfg


you wanna see an offense die? throw j-smoove at the 3. dude can't score for ****. he has to be around the rim.


Everyone is so focused on scoring and maybe that Nellie's fault, but defense/rebounds wins games. It doesn't matter how many points they score. If they're unable to stop the other team from scoring more than them (which has been the case), then all the points in the world don't mean anything.

This team doesn't need another scorer, especially if they plan to keep an Ellis/Curry backcourt. The points will come from those two along with Lee. Thompson and Wright will contribute points off the bench. Take the Mavericks as an example. Every year, they've struggled to advance in the playoffs and came close a few times but never were able to close the deal. They get a defensive minded center in Tyson Chandler, along with a defensive wing in Stevenson, and they win the championship.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:47 am
BayAreaHoopz wrote:
Beast Mode wrote:Josh Smith at the 3 = omfg


you wanna see an offense die? throw j-smoove at the 3. dude can't score for ****. he has to be around the rim.


Everyone is so focused on scoring and maybe that Nellie's fault, but defense/rebounds wins games. It doesn't matter how many points they score. If they're unable to stop the other team from scoring more than them (which has been the case), then all the points in the world don't mean anything.

This team doesn't need another scorer, especially if they plan to keep an Ellis/Curry backcourt. The points will come from those two along with Lee. Thompson and Wright will contribute points off the bench. Take the Mavericks as an example. Every year, they've struggled to advance in the playoffs and came close a few times but never were able to close the deal. They get a defensive minded center in Tyson Chandler, along with a defensive wing in Stevenson, and they win the championship.


This is why I wanted us to grab a guy like Leonard or Singleton in the draft. Both have limited offense, but would be fine as a 4th option, especially with their offensive strengths catering to the role we would need them to play. Hopefully they plan on signing a defensive wing this offseason (want a proven player at a role/position that doesn't cost much more than a rookie's pay). Maybe Battier (more expensive), Kirilienko, or M'Bah Amoute. Battier is the only guy I'd pay more than the MLE for though.

Josh Smith at the 3 will be ugly on offense and defense. Although he can play the 3 for stretches, he is not a strong perimeter defender against quick guys and you're taking away his best defensive attribute, his weakside shotblocking. Offense is pretty self-explanatory.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:16 am
migya wrote:
Beast Mode wrote:Curry didn't have that 2nd year leap we all thought he was going to. Some due to injury (because of his weak ass ankles) but still ... people are writing off Monta much too soon, and praising Curry's "future" way too much. Tbh if we had to move one at this point I'd move Curry. We'd probably get much better value and its not like Steph is a defensive stopper. He's arguably the weakest defender on the team.



Pretty hard to do and pretty extreme, but I'd trade both guys of the backcourt. Heck, I'd trade Lee and obviously AB as well. It just takes a team or GM wanting change and seeing great potential with our current backcourt, which there is, just looks a bit grim in that potential ever being reached


You would advocate this because you can see how stop-gap and reactionary "tweaking" of the roster (St. Jean, Mullin, Riley's collective M.O.) had gotten us nowhere. I like your bold and out-of-the-box thinking!

It is not like the team had built a solid foundation over the last few seasons and is now ready to make the next step to compete. I look at the Chicago Bulls and how they had built their roster around a young nucleus of players who are committed to playing defense, rebounding, and not turning the ball over. The Warriors, in contrast, are a collective bunch of players who are either tweeners, undersized, or not complimentary towards making other teammates better.

Neither Curry nor Ellis are natural point guards, yet as a tandem, can be effective. What really hurts this team is the inability of the frontcourt to play help defense, rebound, defend and score on the block.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:12 pm
uptempo wrote:
migya wrote:
Beast Mode wrote:Curry didn't have that 2nd year leap we all thought he was going to. Some due to injury (because of his weak ass ankles) but still ... people are writing off Monta much too soon, and praising Curry's "future" way too much. Tbh if we had to move one at this point I'd move Curry. We'd probably get much better value and its not like Steph is a defensive stopper. He's arguably the weakest defender on the team.



Pretty hard to do and pretty extreme, but I'd trade both guys of the backcourt. Heck, I'd trade Lee and obviously AB as well. It just takes a team or GM wanting change and seeing great potential with our current backcourt, which there is, just looks a bit grim in that potential ever being reached


You would advocate this because you can see how stop-gap and reactionary "tweaking" of the roster (St. Jean, Mullin, Riley's collective M.O.) had gotten us nowhere. I like your bold and out-of-the-box thinking!

It is not like the team had built a solid foundation over the last few seasons and is now ready to make the next step to compete. I look at the Chicago Bulls and how they had built their roster around a young nucleus of players who are committed to playing defense, rebounding, and not turning the ball over. The Warriors, in contrast, are a collective bunch of players who are either tweeners, undersized, or not complimentary towards making other teammates better.

Neither Curry nor Ellis are natural point guards, yet as a tandem, can be effective. What really hurts this team is the inability of the frontcourt to play help defense, rebound, defend and score on the block.




Yea, the Bulls are a very good example of good role players that commit to defense and surround a star
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:01 am
If they could get Andrei Kirilenko with the MLE, it would be an awesome move. AK47 is a solid defender, rebounder and shot blocker from the SF position. He's also an above average and willing passer. He's a guy that can also motivate and mentor someone like Andris Biedrins, who although is Latvian, speaks Russian.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:26 am
BayAreaHoopz wrote:If they could get Andrei Kirilenko with the MLE, it would be an awesome move. AK47 is a solid defender, rebounder and shot blocker from the SF position. He's also an above average and willing passer. He's a guy that can also motivate and mentor someone like Andris Biedrins, who although is Latvian, speaks Russian.


I like AK47, and would love to see him in a Warrior uniform; however, if a professional needs to be motivated, then that person is not a professional. Biedrens has one big problem; he was never required to develop an offensive game (it still amazes me that Mullin had drafted Biedrens over Al Jefferson). Combined with not being able to hit a free throw, we now have a player who is a liability rather than an asset.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:17 am
uptempo wrote:]I like AK47, and would love to see him in a Warrior uniform; however, if a professional needs to be motivated, then that person is not a professional. Biedrens has one big problem; he was never required to develop an offensive game (it still amazes me that Mullin had drafted Biedrens over Al Jefferson). Combined with not being able to hit a free throw, we now have a player who is a liability rather than an asset.


I don't mind Biedrins' lack of offensive presence. What I'd like to see is for him to be on the floor 30+ minutes a game while rebounding and playing defense without fouling. Thats the presence that the Warriors need in the middle to protect below average perimeter defenders like Ellis and Curry. The free throws don't bother me as well since Shaq and Ben Wallace are both 2 horrific shooters from the line, yet they were the key pieces for the Pistons and Lakers (Miami) in winning championships. I'd like to see a small improvement but he doesn't have to be a 75% guy from the line.

Going back to the 2004 draft, it was really hard to gauge the potential of that draft. 6 high schoolers went in the first round along with 6 international players with Andris being one of them. I'm more upset that they passed on Josh Smith, who many mock drafts had them taking that year, but with Dunleavy Jr still on the roster, I understood why.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:56 pm
BayAreaHoopz wrote:
uptempo wrote:]I like AK47, and would love to see him in a Warrior uniform; however, if a professional needs to be motivated, then that person is not a professional. Biedrens has one big problem; he was never required to develop an offensive game (it still amazes me that Mullin had drafted Biedrens over Al Jefferson). Combined with not being able to hit a free throw, we now have a player who is a liability rather than an asset.


I don't mind Biedrins' lack of offensive presence. What I'd like to see is for him to be on the floor 30+ minutes a game while rebounding and playing defense without fouling. Thats the presence that the Warriors need in the middle to protect below average perimeter defenders like Ellis and Curry. The free throws don't bother me as well since Shaq and Ben Wallace are both 2 horrific shooters from the line, yet they were the key pieces for the Pistons and Lakers (Miami) in winning championships. I'd like to see a small improvement but he doesn't have to be a 75% guy from the line.

Going back to the 2004 draft, it was really hard to gauge the potential of that draft. 6 high schoolers went in the first round along with 6 international players with Andris being one of them. I'm more upset that they passed on Josh Smith, who many mock drafts had them taking that year, but with Dunleavy Jr still on the roster, I understood why.


I agree with you on what is needed from Biedrens on defense and with rebounding; however, he cannot be a non-entity on offense, which precludes Mark Jackson from ever pairing Biedrens with last year's first round draft pick, Udoh. If the team had drafted Monroe (instead of Udoh), then Biedrens's offensive deficiencies could better be absorbed/tolerated. Lastly, it can never be acceptable for a player to make less than 50% of his free throw shots (Shaq may have been the exception).

The 2004 draft (Mullin's first) was a huge setback for this franchise. Along with not taking better players (like Jefferson or Smith), Mullin saddled the franchise with the dead weight of guys like Dunleavy, Murphy, and Foyle.

We fans owe this ownership group a big "THANK YOU' for bringing in Jerry West to help strategically guide this franchise toward hopefully something better in the days/months/years ahead.
Last edited by uptempo on Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:21 pm
BayAreaHoopz wrote:If they could get Andrei Kirilenko with the MLE, it would be an awesome move. AK47 is a solid defender, rebounder and shot blocker from the SF position. He's also an above average and willing passer. He's a guy that can also motivate and mentor someone like Andris Biedrins, who although is Latvian, speaks Russian.


I think Kirielenko could be a very solid pickup at the right price, if he's willing to show his face at Oracle after the Baron massacre there against him. He can rebound and defend very well at the SF position (as well as create a large front line), as well as hit the 3 to stretch the floor. He's 30 so he still has some years left. And having made a ton of money on his last contract as well as having a rich wife, he probably will look to accept less and play for a contending team (although one where he will get minutes). If our ownership can convince him he can be a viable piece in making us a contender maybe we can sign him around MLE.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:04 am
Another guy is Wilson Chandler, although he is a restricted free agent and may cost quite a bit of money if they entered a bidding war. If the salary is too much, I don't think the Nuggets would match since they have Gallinari, who will be entering the same situation next Summer and plays the same position. I think they could probably get Chandler for around $7M a year.

Boris Diaw is another forward that comes to mind and is entering the last year of his contract. It seems a long time since his productive days in Phoenix, but he's 29 years old. He has the ability to guard all five positions and can be a point forward on this roster. This would be a good team to deal Ellis to since its in the East as well. Send Monta Ellis and Charlie Bell for Boris Diaw, Gerald Henderson and DJ White. The Cats give up a former lottery pick in Henderson who could be a nice spark off the bench for the Warriors. This would make the Warriors a better passing, rebounding and defensive team right off the bat. They get more depth by adding Henderson and moving Wright to the bench, which was a major issue as well.

Line up:

PG Stephen Curry - Jeremy Lin - Charles Jenkins
SG Klay Thompson - Gerald Henderson - Matt Carroll
SF Boris Diaw - Dorell Wright - Reggie Williams
PF David Lee - DJ White - Lou Amundson
C Ekpe Udoh - Andris Biedrins - Jeremy Tyler
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:58 pm
BayAreaHoopz wrote:Another guy is Wilson Chandler, although he is a restricted free agent and may cost quite a bit of money if they entered a bidding war. If the salary is too much, I don't think the Nuggets would match since they have Gallinari, who will be entering the same situation next Summer and plays the same position. I think they could probably get Chandler for around $7M a year.

Boris Diaw is another forward that comes to mind and is entering the last year of his contract. It seems a long time since his productive days in Phoenix, but he's 29 years old. He has the ability to guard all five positions and can be a point forward on this roster. This would be a good team to deal Ellis to since its in the East as well. Send Monta Ellis and Charlie Bell for Boris Diaw, Gerald Henderson and DJ White. The Cats give up a former lottery pick in Henderson who could be a nice spark off the bench for the Warriors. This would make the Warriors a better passing, rebounding and defensive team right off the bat. They get more depth by adding Henderson and moving Wright to the bench, which was a major issue as well.

Line up:

PG Stephen Curry - Jeremy Lin - Charles Jenkins
SG Klay Thompson - Gerald Henderson - Matt Carroll
SF Boris Diaw - Dorell Wright - Reggie Williams
PF David Lee - DJ White - Lou Amundson
C Ekpe Udoh - Andris Biedrins - Jeremy Tyler


Chandler is alright, but I don't think he's that much of an upgrade over Wright that he'll be worth the price. His offensive game is solid (although last year in his contract year was when he really broke out), but he is nothing special on defense and I didn't like how he seemed to completely check out of the series vs OKC. I'd rather go after Afflalo over Chandler.

The trade you proposed is interesting, but I do not think Diaw is capable of guarding 5 positions. He is a unique player who does thrive in the uptempo game and could allow some versatile lineups though. However, he brings about as many rebounds to the table as Monta, which is a problem if we want a SF/PF who can bring size (talking about someone who plays their size). Henderson is a nice big 2 guard with room to improve (although from what I've heard from Cats fans, he is already a very solid defender) who could start alongside Curry allowing Klay to come off the bench. Plus with Kemba as the PG, I'm not sure they want another guy undersized for his position in Ellis. Don't think those 2 are worth Monta.
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