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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:45 am
From Rotoworld.com

Monta Ellis - G - Warriors
Monta Ellis said during an interview on WJTV in Jackson, Mississippi that he "doesn't feed into (the trade rumors)," and that "everything is heading in the right direction" for the Warriors.
This really is a non-story, but it's worth noting that he's towing the company line as he's supposed to. Teams and agents may continue to put out the feelers behind the scenes, but until the lockout nears resolution there probably won't be many new developments in his trade situation.
Source: WarriorsWorld.net


Did the FO sign Jackson to coach because he is the type of guy who can motivate Monta? Not to mention the "arrow" has been pointing up for the franchise lately. (Jerry West, addition by subtraction in the FO, solid draft, etc)

Or is this Monta's agent telling him he needs to help initiate a trade by keeping his value high.

I think Monta and Jackson might just be on the same page.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:04 am
There will be no trades with the lockout
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:34 am
Jackson can motivate him all he can, but Ellis can't grow 3 - 4 inches. There is a difference from wanting to and actually being able to defend. We can wave all the smoke in the world to cover up Monta's lack of size by saying how great of a scorer he is, but in the end, nothing changes the fact that he is nothing more than a 6'3 shooting guard. Now, I'm all for a guy wanting to play defense, but Ellis hasn't wanted to play defense since high school so what makes you think a coach can change his game? No other team in the league has a 6'3 (or under) SG starting for them, although the majority of them has one or two off the bench like Barbosa, Farmar, Terry, Louis Williams, Ben Gordon, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, Willie Green, George Hill and Sessions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:52 am
BayAreaHoopz wrote:Jackson can motivate him all he can, but Ellis can't grow 3 - 4 inches. There is a difference from wanting to and actually being able to defend. We can wave all the smoke in the world to cover up Monta's lack of size by saying how great of a scorer he is, but in the end, nothing changes the fact that he is nothing more than a 6'3 shooting guard. Now, I'm all for a guy wanting to play defense, but Ellis hasn't wanted to play defense since high school so what makes you think a coach can change his game? No other team in the league has a 6'3 (or under) SG starting for them, although the majority of them has one or two off the bench like Barbosa, Farmar, Terry, Louis Williams, Ben Gordon, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, Willie Green, George Hill and Sessions.



Size is not the problem at SG. The only time size is a problem at SG is when they try to post him up, only a few teams did this and even fewer had success. He is a shooting guard, he needs to be quick to defend the perimetter. The problem is when he gets caught sleeping, or on defensive rotations. He can defend fine when he tries. Getting him to do in 48 mins for 82 gams is the problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:25 am
BayAreaHoopz wrote:Jackson can motivate him all he can, but Ellis can't grow 3 - 4 inches. There is a difference from wanting to and actually being able to defend. We can wave all the smoke in the world to cover up Monta's lack of size by saying how great of a scorer he is, but in the end, nothing changes the fact that he is nothing more than a 6'3 shooting guard. Now, I'm all for a guy wanting to play defense, but Ellis hasn't wanted to play defense since high school so what makes you think a coach can change his game? No other team in the league has a 6'3 (or under) SG starting for them, although the majority of them has one or two off the bench like Barbosa, Farmar, Terry, Louis Williams, Ben Gordon, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, Willie Green, George Hill and Sessions.


Posts like this make me seriously think you are just a troll to piss off ellis fans. 1) Monta's height is rarely a factor in how he guards players. He actually does pretty well guarding taller players like Kobe and even did decent on Durant. He struggles against quicker players (like EVERY player in the NBA which is why players like Rose and Westbrook are only defended by double and triple teams) and good offball players like Hamilton. If you think he's one of the worst defenders, why does he usually outscore his opponent? What does that make them? Abysmal defenders? 2) His defensive stats are skewed (especially against good offball SGs because his role in our scheme was to double team in the post since we had NO post defense. Our best defense in the post was to have Ellis or Curry double team and go for steals. Any big who read a scouting report and could find guys open would destroy us. Monta when allowed to focus on defending his man was no worse than average. 3) If you really think he compares to those players you mentioned just because his height and position, you don't watch basketball (which I already question, due to that scouting report you just posted). Lots of those guys can barely create their own shot, do not have near the responsibility, and are just role players. Monta is a player who could be maximized by defining a more specific role, but he is not just a role/bench player like those guys. Which one of those guys gets 25/5/4/2 while being one of the most clutch players in the league and finishing around the rim at a higher rate than any guard in the league? None. That's why they are on the bench.

Now I'm all for trading Ellis if it is for an all-star quality big man, but I'm pretty sure the notion of not being able to win a championship with short guards was shattered by the Dallas Mavericks less than a month ago.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:48 pm
Spaceman, I like your post except for that lashing out part.....

I think the point you make is clear without the insulting to his basketball knowledge.
Some of this knowledge only comes from experience and research.
To be fair, threre have been many people who have posted similiar ideas as BayAreaHoopz wrote.
Even some professional writters complain about how lack of size in the back court is a major problem.

I think they are just trying to write about something, and even if we had a 50+ win season they would find something conterversal to write about.

But let's analyze why size in the back court could hurt the defense:
1) Opposing teams SG could shoot over your smaller SG.
2) They can post up your smaller SG.
3) When a big rotates to help, and the SG has to rotate to the big.

Now we just saw 82 games where we had a smaller SG then most teams.
How many times did we see 1) being an issue. Not many. Really, you would perfer that teams shoot from the perimeter, the idea of good defense is not to Block shots or steal the ball... it is to make the other team take as many bad shots and contested shots from as far away as possible. If they are shooting over your SG while he has a hand in there face from the perimeter, then you have done your job on defense. Blocked shots should come from when the oposing team is trying to take it to the rim for a dunk, layup or floater. That is when you want your bigs to block the shot. That will force the team to shoot from the perimiter more.

For 2) how many times did we see them post up Monta or Curry. Not many. And it wasn't like those times were very effective either. Reality is there are few SG in the league who could do a lot of damage in the post. So, this isn't a real big issue, and in the rare cases you have a situation, you can go into a zone or go with a bigger SG off the bench.

for 3), this would be an issue even if he was 2 or 3 inches taller.

Really, the reasonse we get in trouble is because of late or bad rotatoins and/or we cannot keep guys out of the lane.
When someone gets into the lane it causes the big to rotate, and then they are out of position to rebound and they give the other teams big free shot under the hoop. Also, as Spaceman pointed out when the other team dumped the ball into the post, we were doubling, meaning that we open a lane for the other teams guards, or a wide open shot. We need our bigs to be able to play man to man.

So really, team defense and man to man defense all around was a problem last year. There were times where our defense was good, but it wasn't consistent. And our transition defense and spacing sucked. So we improved from 2 years ago, but have a long way to go. Hopefully the new coach and his staff are reviewing film and coming up with good defensive schemes to implement begining next season.

So there is not a whole lot of times where size in the SG becomes a problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:23 pm
GSW Hoops Fan wrote:Spaceman, I like your post except for that lashing out part.....



Sorry I don't dislike Bay Area Hoopz and know he wants a change of direction for the team. I know he thinks moving Ellis is the best way to do this, which may be true. But the way he constantly attacks Ellis using examples of height and getting posted up all the time (which isn't very true) and some of the trades he has suggested for Ellis makes it seem like he's being trollish or just has a major anti-Ellis agenda.

Playing defense with 2 6'3 guard is only impossible when the frontcourt is worse at defense than the back court. Moving into the top 20 on defense (which could be possible without much addition) would make us a playoff team. Top 15 (which is also possible without trading any of our core) on defense and we'll start being contenders with our ability to score. Defense is never just about 1 player, and I don't think trading him for a guard who is 3 inches taller makes us any better at defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:05 pm
Dr. Spaceman wrote:
BayAreaHoopz wrote:Jackson can motivate him all he can, but Ellis can't grow 3 - 4 inches. There is a difference from wanting to and actually being able to defend. We can wave all the smoke in the world to cover up Monta's lack of size by saying how great of a scorer he is, but in the end, nothing changes the fact that he is nothing more than a 6'3 shooting guard. Now, I'm all for a guy wanting to play defense, but Ellis hasn't wanted to play defense since high school so what makes you think a coach can change his game? No other team in the league has a 6'3 (or under) SG starting for them, although the majority of them has one or two off the bench like Barbosa, Farmar, Terry, Louis Williams, Ben Gordon, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, Willie Green, George Hill and Sessions.


Posts like this make me seriously think you are just a troll to piss off ellis fans. 1) Monta's height is rarely a factor in how he guards players. He actually does pretty well guarding taller players like Kobe and even did decent on Durant. He struggles against quicker players (like EVERY player in the NBA which is why players like Rose and Westbrook are only defended by double and triple teams) and good offball players like Hamilton. If you think he's one of the worst defenders, why does he usually outscore his opponent? What does that make them? Abysmal defenders? 2) His defensive stats are skewed (especially against good offball SGs because his role in our scheme was to double team in the post since we had NO post defense. Our best defense in the post was to have Ellis or Curry double team and go for steals. Any big who read a scouting report and could find guys open would destroy us. Monta when allowed to focus on defending his man was no worse than average. 3) If you really think he compares to those players you mentioned just because his height and position, you don't watch basketball (which I already question, due to that scouting report you just posted). Lots of those guys can barely create their own shot, do not have near the responsibility, and are just role players. Monta is a player who could be maximized by defining a more specific role, but he is not just a role/bench player like those guys. Which one of those guys gets 25/5/4/2 while being one of the most clutch players in the league and finishing around the rim at a higher rate than any guard in the league? None. That's why they are on the bench.

Now I'm all for trading Ellis if it is for an all-star quality big man, but I'm pretty sure the notion of not being able to win a championship with short guards was shattered by the Dallas Mavericks less than a month ago.




I like the points made in this post and like GSW Hoops Fan said, no need for the negative slamming remarks. Well explained and reasoned about Monta and how things are.

Monta is an average defender who has played great defense a few times, but very few times. Joe Dumars is the best example of a 6'3 SG that played great defense. It comes down to wanting to do it and most superstar players just don't and that seems to be Monta, Curry as well for that matter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:07 pm
GSW Hoops Fan wrote:Spaceman, I like your post except for that lashing out part.....

I think the point you make is clear without the insulting to his basketball knowledge.
Some of this knowledge only comes from experience and research.
To be fair, threre have been many people who have posted similiar ideas as BayAreaHoopz wrote.
Even some professional writters complain about how lack of size in the back court is a major problem.

I think they are just trying to write about something, and even if we had a 50+ win season they would find something conterversal to write about.

But let's analyze why size in the back court could hurt the defense:
1) Opposing teams SG could shoot over your smaller SG.
2) They can post up your smaller SG.
3) When a big rotates to help, and the SG has to rotate to the big.

Now we just saw 82 games where we had a smaller SG then most teams.
How many times did we see 1) being an issue. Not many. Really, you would perfer that teams shoot from the perimeter, the idea of good defense is not to Block shots or steal the ball... it is to make the other team take as many bad shots and contested shots from as far away as possible. If they are shooting over your SG while he has a hand in there face from the perimeter, then you have done your job on defense. Blocked shots should come from when the oposing team is trying to take it to the rim for a dunk, layup or floater. That is when you want your bigs to block the shot. That will force the team to shoot from the perimiter more.

For 2) how many times did we see them post up Monta or Curry. Not many. And it wasn't like those times were very effective either. Reality is there are few SG in the league who could do a lot of damage in the post. So, this isn't a real big issue, and in the rare cases you have a situation, you can go into a zone or go with a bigger SG off the bench.

for 3), this would be an issue even if he was 2 or 3 inches taller.

Really, the reasonse we get in trouble is because of late or bad rotatoins and/or we cannot keep guys out of the lane.
When someone gets into the lane it causes the big to rotate, and then they are out of position to rebound and they give the other teams big free shot under the hoop. Also, as Spaceman pointed out when the other team dumped the ball into the post, we were doubling, meaning that we open a lane for the other teams guards, or a wide open shot. We need our bigs to be able to play man to man.

So really, team defense and man to man defense all around was a problem last year. There were times where our defense was good, but it wasn't consistent. And our transition defense and spacing sucked. So we improved from 2 years ago, but have a long way to go. Hopefully the new coach and his staff are reviewing film and coming up with good defensive schemes to implement begining next season.

So there is not a whole lot of times where size in the SG becomes a problem.




Another great post. Great reasoning and explaining.

Good interior defenders are essential, as they defend the opposition bigs as well as guards taking it to the basket. Guards need to be able to stay i front of their man and basically make then shoot over them while putting some pressure on them.

This roster could improve defensively, but I have to see it to believe it
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:17 am
I agree with migs - some great posts/arguments by Space and GSW Hoops :D I also agree with the posts and migs' assessment that Monta is an average defender - which i'm totally fine with. If the guy is middle of that pack at defense but a top 5 scorer in the league, I'll take that combo any day. I don't think there is anything wrong with our back court.

I also feel like reporters looking in at stat sheets, rosters, etc, and not actually watching the games are too quick to assume that the reason we allow so many points is because he have two small starting, scoring guards. While I think most Warrior fans would agree that we haven't really had a serviceable center for 2-3 years now or much help from the forward positions rebounding. Not to mention that we just play at a faster pace which means more opportunities, and ultimately, more points for both teams. We could try to go with the stat quo like the rest of the league and go for sheer defense, but realistically only a few teams every year are capable of doing that and succeed.

I do think there is a difference between defense and rebounding, while the two usually come hand-in-hand, they are 2 completely different aspects of the game. We've seen great defensive teams win, but we've also seen some of those teams' success short lived. I think offense + rebounding are the true keys to success; accurate shooting and intelligent ball handling, which maximize your offensive possessions and rebounding to provide more scoring opportunities for your team while limiting the other teams'. Consider what I just wrote, doesn't that sound painfully obvious and fundamental!? Now consider what most people naturally attribute fundamentals with in sports in general... defense.

Our biggest problem is rebounding, turnovers, poor decision making and then defense is 4th.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:12 am
Thanks to everyone that realized that this is a forum where opinions are posted and what I post is just that, just as Spaceman is entitled to his. I have no problems with being argued against. If I wasn't, then forums wouldn't be as fun. But, if you're going to make an argument, try not to change quotes. I never said anything about Ellis getting posted up, yet you said I did and made a big deal of it.

As for my stand on Ellis, yes, I'm not a big Ellis fan and if you are, then more power to you. I was a huge Baron supporter while many weren't. Out of the millions of fans out there, there has to be a couple of people that will disagree. Just because people don't share your same point of view doesn't make them a "troll".

I loved Joe Dumars, but lets be realistic. He played in a whole different era. No one called Karl Malone undersized for his position, yet when you look at scouting reports these days, most 6'8 power forwards are considered undersized. Dumar's era had very few 7 footers and the majority of them were centers. Now, we're talking about 7'0 power and small forwards with athleticism. The players have evolved and the game plan needs to as well.

There are reasons why Ellis was a second round pick. Reasons why he isn't an All-Star. Because there is more to the game than just being able to score.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:56 am
BayAreaHoopz wrote:Thanks to everyone that realized that this is a forum where opinions are posted and what I post is just that, just as Spaceman is entitled to his. I have no problems with being argued against. If I wasn't, then forums wouldn't be as fun. But, if you're going to make an argument, try not to change quotes. I never said anything about Ellis getting posted up, yet you said I did and made a big deal of it.

As for my stand on Ellis, yes, I'm not a big Ellis fan and if you are, then more power to you. I was a huge Baron supporter while many weren't. Out of the millions of fans out there, there has to be a couple of people that will disagree. Just because people don't share your same point of view doesn't make them a "troll".

I loved Joe Dumars, but lets be realistic. He played in a whole different era. No one called Karl Malone undersized for his position, yet when you look at scouting reports these days, most 6'8 power forwards are considered undersized. Dumar's era had very few 7 footers and the majority of them were centers. Now, we're talking about 7'0 power and small forwards with athleticism. The players have evolved and the game plan needs to as well.

There are reasons why Ellis was a second round pick. Reasons why he isn't an All-Star. Because there is more to the game than just being able to score.


Yeah man I said I'm sorry for attacking you. I know you really just want this team to change and improve from the exciting but losing b ball we've been playing. And I know you think Ellis can help acquire a better fitting piece to help in a change of culture. I've even agreed on many trades you would do with Ellis. But I have to say it is very noticeable how much you dislike him on this team. When you always only say negative things about a good player and Say you'd trade him for Brandon Bass and Duhon it starts to seem a bit trollish. Same with using the fact that he's a 6'3 SG to group him with players who are the same size but not in the same league as Monta skillswise. And you say he can only score, but again that's not true. If you can find other SGs in the league that average 25/5/4/2 besides Wade and Kobe, I'm all ears.

My biggest problem (and I know you are not always guilty of all of this) is that so many Ellis haters say stuff like he gets posted up, or his height is a huge problem, when they have NO evidence of this in stats, or game footage for that matter. And if you watch the game you see that Monta is nowhere near the biggest problem on our defense. Defense starts and is played inside out. Also many make arguments like he does nothing but score and chuck when if you look at statistics you see quite the opposite. I admit he is not perfect SG, but the hate he gets is sometimes ridiculous.

Also people use the argument that he has a redundant skillset and needs to be traded for a defensive oriented wing, when Dorrell bring ONLY offense with nowhere near the arsenal or skillset Monta has, but we should keep him. If we want to have a lineup that brings defense, we should have that legit defensive wing player playing SF with Dorrell coming off the bench.

I can qalmost GUARANTEE signing a defensive wing like Battier (even if we had to give up Dorrell to get one) and keeping Ellis makes us better than trading Ellis for Iggy's terrible contract.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:39 pm
No problems Spaceman. I know how forums work and take criticisms fairly well. But you are right. I really want this team to succeed and in my opinion, its not going to happen with an undersized back court, especially with the present front court. If they had players like Josh Smith at the 3, Udoh at the 4 and Tyson Chandler at the 5 then I think a small back court could work. Unfortunately, the Warriors don't have that front court.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:12 pm
BayAreaHoopz wrote:No problems Spaceman. I know how forums work and take criticisms fairly well. But you are right. I really want this team to succeed and in my opinion, its not going to happen with an undersized back court, especially with the present front court. If they had players like Josh Smith at the 3, Udoh at the 4 and Tyson Chandler at the 5 then I think a small back court could work. Unfortunately, the Warriors don't have that front court.


Josh Smith at the 3 = omfg


you wanna see an offense die? throw j-smoove at the 3. dude can't score for ****. he has to be around the rim.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:51 pm
Beast Mode wrote:
BayAreaHoopz wrote:No problems Spaceman. I know how forums work and take criticisms fairly well. But you are right. I really want this team to succeed and in my opinion, its not going to happen with an undersized back court, especially with the present front court. If they had players like Josh Smith at the 3, Udoh at the 4 and Tyson Chandler at the 5 then I think a small back court could work. Unfortunately, the Warriors don't have that front court.


Josh Smith at the 3 = omfg


you wanna see an offense die? throw j-smoove at the 3. dude can't score for ****. he has to be around the rim.



You reckon DWright is a better scorer than JSmith? He is a better outside shooter, but JSmith can score pretty well, though I wouldn't trade Monta for him unless Monta is adequately replaced
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