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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"
You don't really hear that kind of candid talk from team owners not named Cuban. Ok, I'm on the uphill swing on the roller coaster that is my opinion of this owner group...
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:21 pm
Poster Credit: 21
After watching a lot of "Parks and Recreation" lately, Lacob and Guber remind me of Rob Lowe's and Adam Scott's characters. Lowe (like Lacob), is the one that is super optimistic and promising everything. Scott's character (Guber) is the one that has to be the bad cop and become more realistic with the situation, ultimately not meeting the promises and hope brought out by Lowe's character.
Hopefully I am wrong and this ownership does what it can to improve, but this ownership is a partnership. Whatever Lacob promises, it's gotta go through Guber as well.
Not necessarily, considering Joe Lacob is the managing partner. I'm sure someone educated, such as yourself, has taken a business class or two and may recall that in a partnership that contains a "managing partner", sometimes the other partner(s) may veto some of the managing partner's decisions - but it isn't likely. That's one of the major downfalls of being the non-managing partner in this type of arrangement. Of course it all depends on their agreement. But form the outside looking in, it certainly appears that Lacob is the one wearing the pants.
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:21 pm
Poster Credit: 21
Well, Lacob is the media friendly one. He is the public face of the two men.
I do hope Lacob does what he says, and he does look much better than Cohan. But, not being a "real fan", i cannot make comparisons to Cuban until we actually see results.
NBA.com is really a much better source of information than our local mediots who gave the previous ownership (Cohan), front office (Rowell and Mullin) too much of a free pass.
From the above link: "...It is worth noting that, for all the verbal abuse he took, spending was hardly a primary Cohan problem. If anything, he overpaid for Adonal Foyle, Derek Fisher, Mike Dunleavy, Stephen Jackson and Troy Murphy in deals negotiated y since-departed executives Chris Mullin and Robert Rowell. Cohan also took on Nelson as one of the highest-paid coaches in the league despite previous bad blood."
Foyle? Fisher? Dunleavy? Murphy? Even this board gave Mullin a pass on signing/extending/overpaying those guys.
Jackson? Rowell did take some heat on that one.
Bringing back Nelson? Another Mullin blunder.
It is so refreshing not having the Cohan, Rowell, Mullin, and Nelson, the 'inept-foursome,' around to further screw up this franchise, and it is exciting to hear the team owner talk about contending. The inept-foursome (Cohan, Rowell, Mullin, and Nelson) were only concerned about giving the fans "an 'entertaining brand' of basketball" and had no clue on how to build a contender. This ownership group is not afraid to say what they want: a winning product on the court.
Lastly, Riley also needs to be held to some standard of accountability for the huge contract that was given to David Lee. David Lee is not a guy who can play interior defense, does not make his teammates better, nor can ever be moved in a trade because of his bloated contract.
Who's comparing him to Cuban?
I was just a pissed about the blogger and not "real fans" comments - just as much as anyone, but I'm not going to continue to hold that against him. He said some things that I bet he would take back, even if they had never been made public. I'm over it. Now what I am pissed about is him hiring his son.
Larry Riley is the last piece of garbage (along the inept-foursome (Cohan, Rowell, Mullin, and Nelson)) who needs to be purged out of this organization. Hopefully, Bob Myers is being groomed by Jerry West and not Larry Riley.
From: http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... st-summer/
What if the Warriors had drafted Greg Monroe and avoided David Lee last summer?
POSTED BY TIM KAWAKAMI ON JULY 3RD, 2011 AT 8:18 AM | CATEGORIZED AS NBA, WARRIORS
Since I’m so used to enraging certain portions of Warriors fandom so reguarly, but especially during the July movement period…
And since there probably will be no July trade/free-agency period this year due to the lock-out…
(* Therefore all of the following talk about salary-cap maintenance is potentially out of date, but disucssed in relation to the previous rules. Generally speaking, it is presumed that having less money committed is better than having more committed, whatever the number or rules are.)
I’m looking back to last off-season and wondering about two moves made under old ownership, but definitely with the hold-over general manager’s fingerprints all over them:
* Drafting Ekpe Udoh with the 6th pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, and bypassing Greg Monroe (who went 7th to Detroit);
* And acquiring David Lee in a sign-and-trade deal, handing Anthony Randolph, Ronny Turiaf and Kelenna Azubuike to the Knicks and giving Lee a six-year, $80M deal.
I certainly have let my feelings be known on those two moves from the instant they were made last summer, so nobody will be surprised that I still believe they were unwise.
But it’s the look back from a longer view that always is the most important.
How do the Udoh/Lee moves look now, one year later, as the Warriors try to piece together a credible operation and roster heading into the 2011-2012 season, if there is a 2011-’12 season?
-I should immediately add right here that Riley made at least one certifiably strong decision–to sign SF Dorell Wright to a very affordable three-year deal.
-Wright wasn’t as incredible as some GSW partisans blared all season–or else the Warriors wouldn’t be searching for a hardier SF these days–but he was a clear upgrade over what the Warriors had and he is on a career upswing, which is always good.
Let’s just run over a comparison of what the Warriors look like now, and what they might’ve looked like with two different decisions by Riley (when Chris Cohan was still the owner and Robert Rowell was still the team president and Don Nelson was still the coach)….
* Udoh is not a bad young PF at all.
He’s by far the Warriors’ best defensive player and once he got healthy, the Warriors always seemed to play better when he was on the floor (though Keith Smart didn’t always seem to realize this).
I like Udoh as a cog in the building of a more defensive-minded team. I’m not saying that I don’t.
But Udoh was an old draftee and he’s 24 now. He’s about what he’s going to be as an NBA player. Good defense, very little scoring punch, not much on the rebounding, either.
Udoh might pick up the pace some on offense, but there’s really not much to work with there, and it’s not like he’s so young that you can project a jump-shot or post game fashioned out of the raw material.
Monroe, on the other hand, is two inches taller, three years younger (he just turned 21 last month), and already has shown that he can score and rebound in the NBA.
Once he got regular time in Detroit (on a bad team, granted), Monroe averaged just under 13 points and 10 rebounds and, according to the peripheral stats, wasn’t a defensive laggard at all.
Just to compare: As a 20-year-old rookie, Monroe had a 18.0 PER.
As a 23-year-old rookie, Udoh had a 9.7 PER.
That is a rather large production/efficiency gap and their corresponding ages tell us that it probably will only get larger.
Plus, Monroe might not be a full-time NBA center, but at 6-11 and with those skills, he can fake it at C, especially on offense, in a way that Udoh just can’t.
Udoh can play some defense at C–but like Monroe, probably not against the bigger Cs–but he’s not a true C. His position is PF, and he won’t be a scorer at either position.
Monroe is a scorer and rebounder at either spot, and that’s valuable stuff in the NBA.
Monroe clearly would’ve been the better pick. Udoh was the low-ceiling pick. It’s showing.
* And Lee isn’t a terrible PF, though I’ve taken my share of swipes at him.
He does rebound. He passes it well for a big man. Sometimes hits that 15-footer. He’s a very nice person.
But the Warriors owe him a little over $69M over the next five seasons, and despite their protestations, this is a contract that weighs them down in all future endeavors.
Lee fans get mad at me for a lot of things, where they’re probably right is that I often neglect to say that Andris Biedrins’ remaining $27M over the next three years is a worse burden.
But Biedrins is a center, who has been known to play some defense. And he’s still only 25.
I sometimes forget, but we’re always reminded that young centers have value in this league, even when they’ve stunk and been hurt for a few years.
Lee is 28. He’s not a center. And though his supporters do not like this subject, it’s a fact that he’s a poor defensive player.
He’s also not the easiest guy to partner with on the low post–the other big man MUST play great defense, he’ll never get defensive help from Lee, and he has to get out of Lee’s way when Lee wants that rebound.
Not easy to find that good partner.
Lee’s supporters say he was pulled down when he had to play next to Biedrins. I say Biedrins suffered almost as much or more in that bad partnership.
If the Warriors hadn’t acquired him, instead of Lee’s $11.61M salary slot for the coming seaosn, they’d theoretically still have Randolph ($2.91M for next season) and Turiaf ($4.36M) under contract, and Azubuike’s deal just expired.
So right there: Un-doing the Lee deal would slice $4.34M from the Warriors’ 2011-’12 payroll.
What happens if you slice that from the payroll? Under the old cap calculations, the Warriors would drop almost $12M under the salary-cap line of $58M…
And starting a salary at $12M or so? That would’ve been enough to lure a big-time free agent or force a team to do a sign-and-trade if they feared you could do the out-right signing.
(As Cleveland and Toronto feared when Miami was about to land LeBron James and Chris Bosh last July. Those ended up as S & T’s)
In a scenario where the Warriors want to get as far under the cap-line as possible, they could also renounce restricted F/A Reggie Williams, which would get them another $1M or so under the line.
As it is, with Lee on board and Williams given a qualifying offer, the Warriors are committed to about $51M (if you count their cap-hold for Klay Thompson) in salaries for next season, and that’s only $7M under the old cap line.
Also, without that Lee deal, the Warriors would’ve had Turiaf’s one-year contract to offer in potential sign-and-trade situations… AND they also would still have Randolph, who I know is hated by much of the GSW populace, but still retains some value. (Cue the shouting at me.)
Would they have won fewer than 36 games without Lee and with Randolph or whoever else manning the PF spot?
Almost certainly. I agree, the GSWs were a (slightly) better team with a veteran like Lee in there. But still very much a non-playoff team.
The old adage is correct here: It’s usually better in the NBA to win in the 20s (without Lee) and get better shots in the lottery, than to win in the high-30s (with Lee and a stuck cap situation) and draft at the back of the lottery every year.
Another point: Is David Lee the starting PF on a team that will ever challenge for a conference championship? Probably not, and yet he’s signed at large money for five more years.
The Warriors by signing Lee basically said he’s their PF through 2015-’16, so they’re conceding (though Riley and Rowell didn’t know it) that they probably won’t contend for a title in those years.
Lee’s a stuck-at-36-wins kind of player, especially when you pay him $13.3M a year.
That’s where the Warriors are with Lee, and with Udoh, who wasn’t a very high-ceiling guy from the moment they drafted him.
It’s not worth close to his $13.3M per-year average to have Lee on this team–when the Warriors are paying him all that money and STILL desperate for a big man who can score on the block and play defense.
And it would’ve been more valuable for the Warriors to draft a younger, higher-ceiling guy like Monroe, instead of using the 6th pick overall (their highest since drafting Dunleavy 3rd in2002) on a 23-year-old with marginal offensive and rebounding skills.
***** With Lee/Udoh in 2010-2011/Rotation:
C-Biedrins/Udoh, Gadzuric (partial season);
F-Lee, DWright, Radmanovic, Amundson;
G-Ellis, Curry, Law.
-Won 36 games;
-Still were a bad rebounding team;
-Still were a terrible defensive team;
-Major long-term salary commitments, including not enough room–pending a new CBA, which promises only to make the situation worse–to offer enough to lure a big-time big man in free agency;
-Still need a low-post scorer and low-post defender–Lee’s a pretty tricky big man to try to find a proper big man partner;
-No Randolph or Turiaf.
**** With Monroe and Randolph (and no Lee or Udoh)/
Hypothetical 2010-’11 rotation:
C-Biedrins, Turiaf, Gadzuric;
F-Monroe, DWright, Randolph, Radmanovic, Amundson, Williams;
G-Ellis, Curry, Law.
-Hypothetically would’ve won fewer than 36, which means possibly a better lottery position.
The Clippers had four fewer wins than the Warriors and were three slots higher in the lottery odds, and they ended up with the No. 1 overall pick, but that went to Cleveland because the LACs had traded the pick.
-Possibly a slightly worse rebounding team (without Lee), but possibly not (since Monroe is a good rebounder);
-Definitely a team with young mid-post scorer in Monroe, with room to grow;
-Probably still hungry for a low-post defensive presence;
-Still have Randolph and Turiaf, though;
-And have $4.34M more room under the cap for free-agent or sign-and-trade excursions, with Monroe as an easier big man to pair with than Lee is.
With Monroe on board, you don’t necessarily have to find a big scorer at C/PF. You just need a guy who can hustle and bang–and it’s the big low-post scorers who cost the huge money.
With $12M to spend right away–hypothetically, in a new CBA who knows?–the Warriors could’ve seeen if Tyson Chandler wanted a three- or four-year deal, or tried to pry the Clippers’ DeAndre Jordan as a restricted F/A (for less than $12M to begin the deal, but for more than $7M).
With $7M to spend right away, that’s much tougher to do.
*** You tell me what scenario is the better one for the long-term. It’s all hypothetical now, but it was fairly obvious a year ago, and I don’t think there can be too much argument now.
8th Ave, you are a voice of reason; however, I believe that Monroe is a better player than Udoh. I like Udoh; however, we get no offensive production from him and we need that from the power forward position. Also, Udoh is older, has less upside, and cannot play center; while Monroe is younger, has huge upside, and is a guy who can play either power forward or center.
I still want to see Udoh do well as a Warrior.
Beast, you said it well, brother! This is why I do not want Riley involved in any more player personnel decisions. The team is now an incomplete group of players who all have specific skills which do not fit well with each other. Cohan, Rowell, Mullin, and Nelson (the 'inept-foursome') need to now be joined by Riley into the scrap heap of bad Warrior decisions.
You make some good points; however, I don't want a guy (Riley) who "has done a good job given what he had to work with" building this Warrior roster. We fans deserve better; we fans deserve a real architect who has vision, can formulate a strategy, and can execute on building a championship-contending roster. The hell with picking up "a decent PF on a winning team (who we also overpaid)!" We have seen enough of the mediocrity mentality to last a lifetime. This mediocrity mentality is what led Cohan to hire Rowell, Twardzik, St. Jean, Mullin, Nelson, and Riley; they all have one thing in common: they are LOSERS! It is just so refreshing to see Lacob and Guber bring in a Jerry West. Yes, we can say "the Warriors have Jerry West assisting the team in making decisions!" We now have some hope.
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