rockyBeli wrote:Ellis $11mil
Biedrins $9mil
#1

Horford $4mil
Joe Johnson, sign & trade for $16mil



I might do that one



Curry
Joe Johnson
Azu
AR
Horford


Bibby
Ellis
Evan Turner
Josh Smith
Biedrins

I want NO part of Joe Johnson. SELFISH SELFISH player. I could not even imagine him and maggette on the floor at the same time. YUCK.

Would much rather have Ellis than Johnson and I am saying that as someone who wants Ellis out of here.

bada wrote:
Horford was an all-star in only his 3rd season, is one of the best post defenders in the entire league and can score inside and mid range. Is athletic and a very good passer. He also plays as hard as anyone in the league.

You are right, Horford is NOT in the same league as West or Jefferson. That would be an insult to Horford.

Only area I see Horford needing to improve in is his rebounding. His lack of scoring is only because of his opportunities. I mean scoring 14pts on only 10 shot attempts per game is pretty damn good. He could easily score 18+pts/game if he got the opportunity. Add to that you get a guy who allowed the least amount of points per post up... WOW.

problem is there is virtually no way to get him. And do you really think Biedrins has much value around the league? The ONLY thing the guy does well is rebound.

he cant score and is a well below average defender.

lol how is that an insult to Horford. are you saying Horford's post game is better than West & Al Jeff? if Horford is as dominant as you're saying, then why is he a fourth option. sure I guess the others players are selfish but don't you think the Hawks would go to him more, the coach would get him the ball more, or he would demand the ball more himself if he was their best scoring option?

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:Ellis $11mil
Biedrins $9mil
#1

Horford $4mil
Joe Johnson, sign & trade for $16mil



I might do that one



Curry
Joe Johnson
Azu
AR
Horford


Bibby
Ellis
Evan Turner
Josh Smith
Biedrins

I want NO part of Joe Johnson. SELFISH SELFISH player. I could not even imagine him and maggette on the floor at the same time. YUCK.

Would much rather have Ellis than Johnson and I am saying that as someone who wants Ellis out of here.

JJohnson has become a far different player than what he was in Phoenix where he was a bit more of a playmaker and passed more. He definately seems like a cancer now and really don't want him either and at that very high price also

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.

Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.

Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.

But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything

from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.

Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.

You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.

or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..

Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.

I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.

And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.

Biedrins has been a top rebounder in the league when healthy. Randolph can pull down some boards as well, he was also injured. we don't have D or rebounding but some attribute that to Don Nelson, with his undersized lineups and zero D philosophy. it could be the roster though.

I'm not doubting that Horford can become a go-to guy. he is young, only in his 3rd year. just like A. Randolph can become a superstar. but is it worth it to trade for someone who hasn't even proven to be 'the man' or taking a bulk of his team's FG attempts? it's like another experiment / question mark that the fans get to become observers of. Horford is not in the same category of even David West or Al Jefferson because he hasn't proven to be a go-to guy. he scored over 30 only once last year.

if Horford is the warriors sole offseason pick up, does that really elevate this team very much? nah, I'll pass. if we could trade Biedrins for him, sure. but to part with any significant player on this team for him wouldn't be worth it imo.

Horford was an all-star in only his 3rd season, is one of the best post defenders in the entire league and can score inside and mid range. Is athletic and a very good passer. He also plays as hard as anyone in the league.

You are right, Horford is NOT in the same league as West or Jefferson. That would be an insult to Horford.

Only area I see Horford needing to improve in is his rebounding. His lack of scoring is only because of his opportunities. I mean scoring 14pts on only 10 shot attempts per game is pretty damn good. He could easily score 18+pts/game if he got the opportunity. Add to that you get a guy who allowed the least amount of points per post up... WOW.

problem is there is virtually no way to get him. And do you really think Biedrins has much value around the league? The ONLY thing the guy does well is rebound.

he cant score and is a well below average defender.

Man, I just don't see Horford as much more than decent offensively. He got that FG% more possibly than not from having JJ and JSmith, as well as Crawford and other capable scorers, on his team and so not being the opposition's target. Don't think he could ever be the go to player for a team. He defends and rebounds quite well, give him that

i want josh smith

and hes not free

migya wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.

Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.

Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.

But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything

from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.

Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.

You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.

or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..

Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.

I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.

And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.

Biedrins has been a top rebounder in the league when healthy. Randolph can pull down some boards as well, he was also injured. we don't have D or rebounding but some attribute that to Don Nelson, with his undersized lineups and zero D philosophy. it could be the roster though.

I'm not doubting that Horford can become a go-to guy. he is young, only in his 3rd year. just like A. Randolph can become a superstar. but is it worth it to trade for someone who hasn't even proven to be 'the man' or taking a bulk of his team's FG attempts? it's like another experiment / question mark that the fans get to become observers of. Horford is not in the same category of even David West or Al Jefferson because he hasn't proven to be a go-to guy. he scored over 30 only once last year.

if Horford is the warriors sole offseason pick up, does that really elevate this team very much? nah, I'll pass. if we could trade Biedrins for him, sure. but to part with any significant player on this team for him wouldn't be worth it imo.

Horford was an all-star in only his 3rd season, is one of the best post defenders in the entire league and can score inside and mid range. Is athletic and a very good passer. He also plays as hard as anyone in the league.

You are right, Horford is NOT in the same league as West or Jefferson. That would be an insult to Horford.

Only area I see Horford needing to improve in is his rebounding. His lack of scoring is only because of his opportunities. I mean scoring 14pts on only 10 shot attempts per game is pretty damn good. He could easily score 18+pts/game if he got the opportunity. Add to that you get a guy who allowed the least amount of points per post up... WOW.

problem is there is virtually no way to get him. And do you really think Biedrins has much value around the league? The ONLY thing the guy does well is rebound.

he cant score and is a well below average defender.

Man, I just don't see Horford as much more than decent offensively. He got that FG% more possibly than not from having JJ and JSmith, as well as Crawford and other capable scorers, on his team and so not being the opposition's target. Don't think he could ever be the go to player for a team. He defends and rebounds quite well, give him that

I dont get this GO TO scoring thing. So you are saying that we need a guy like Amare who can score 25+/game but not be a great rebounder or defender over a guy who can score 18+/game on 55% shooting and be one of the best defensive players in the league?

I mean how many scorers do we need on this team? Horford is a GOOD offensive player. He can score facing the basket or back to the basket. On only 10 shots/game he is averaging 14pts game being the 4th option, I think it is completely realistic that he could score 18+ here in Oakland. GIven his defensive presense, I think that is more than adequate. Not too many players in this league are great post defenders AND can score 18+.

bada wrote:I mean how many scorers do we need on this team?

We just need one very good low post scorer, one perimeter slasher who can attack the rim with athleticism and a couple of players who can knock down the 3.

We also need one very good low post defender. I can see Horford as that defender but I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need. He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

Chum wrote:

bada wrote:I mean how many scorers do we need on this team?

We just need one very good low post scorer, one perimeter slasher who can attack the rim with athleticism and a couple of players who can knock down the 3.

We also need one very good low post defender. I can see Horford as that defender but I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need. He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

I have asked this question a few times in this thread....

What is it SPECIFICALLY about his skill set/game that leads you to believe he cant be a scorer? Saying "he has never been a go to guy" is not really an answer. All that is is as a result of a lack of opportunity.

But for those that say he cant be a go to guy, what does he lack SPECIFICALLY in his game that prevents him from being a scorer?

I really wish I had recordings of his games and could edit together a package that highlights his offensive skills. Youtube crap is always just dunks which does not show skill set.

This highlight package shows a few things other than dunks but is pretty much just 80% dunks which sucks. But you can see on some moves his versatility to spin left or right while back to the basket and his ability to knock down mid range shots.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAsRpdxf32Y[/youtube]

bada wrote:

Chum wrote:

bada wrote:I mean how many scorers do we need on this team?

We just need one very good low post scorer, one perimeter slasher who can attack the rim with athleticism and a couple of players who can knock down the 3.

We also need one very good low post defender. I can see Horford as that defender but I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need. He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

I have asked this question a few times in this thread....

What is it SPECIFICALLY about his skill set/game that leads you to believe he cant be a scorer? Saying "he has never been a go to guy" is not really an answer. All that is is as a result of a lack of opportunity.

But for those that say he cant be a go to guy, what does he lack SPECIFICALLY in his game that prevents him from being a scorer?

I really wish I had recordings of his games and could edit together a package that highlights his offensive skills. Youtube crap is always just dunks which does not show skill set.

This highlight package shows a few things other than dunks but is pretty much just 80% dunks which sucks. But you can see on some moves his versatility to spin left or right while back to the basket and his ability to knock down mid range shots.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAsRpdxf32Y[/youtube]

I haven't seen enough of Horford to know if he'd be a good scorer or not. He doesn't average many points. The only thing that I have to suggest he would be a good scorer is you saying he would be. Thus...

Chum wrote:I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need

and my further inquiry...

Chum wrote:He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

I'm not against trading for Horford at all bada. In fact I like the idea a lot, if for nothing other than having him be a defensive presence. I'm still not sure he'd be a consistant 20 point scorer, which we need as well as a defensive presence. You seem to think he can be that kind of scorer bada, and I give your opinion some weight, but the truth is until someone actually becomes a consistant high scorer in the NBA I'll have some doubts that that player can be one.

Personally i also like your idea of getting Thibodeau as our head coach. As much as I like a fast paced style of play I'd like a winning style better. Getting Thibodeau, trading for Horford, shifting AR to SF and drafting another big that can play D well could turn the Warriors around very fast and for the better. And yes I'm hinting at Cole Aldrich. No one that dislikes him can seem to point out why. He's probably the best defending big in the draft from what I've been reading, and he wants to be known as a defensive player.

With Thibodeau as Coach
PG - Curry
SG - Williams
SF - AR
PF - Horford
C - Aldrich

I think that front 3 would be scary under a coach that preaches D and knows how to train the bigs. I like this lineup whether or not Horford becomes a 20/10 guy, and if he does it's all just gravy

edit to add: And if Aldrich really wouldn't work as a starting center I say use the pick to try to get a player like Gortat.

With Thibodeau as Coach version 2
PG - Curry
SG - Williams
SF - AR
PF - Horford
C - Gortat

That should put some fear into opposing offenses.

bada wrote:

migya wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:

bada wrote:

rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.

Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.

Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.

But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything

from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.

Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.

You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.

or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..

Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.

I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.

And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.

Biedrins has been a top rebounder in the league when healthy. Randolph can pull down some boards as well, he was also injured. we don't have D or rebounding but some attribute that to Don Nelson, with his undersized lineups and zero D philosophy. it could be the roster though.

I'm not doubting that Horford can become a go-to guy. he is young, only in his 3rd year. just like A. Randolph can become a superstar. but is it worth it to trade for someone who hasn't even proven to be 'the man' or taking a bulk of his team's FG attempts? it's like another experiment / question mark that the fans get to become observers of. Horford is not in the same category of even David West or Al Jefferson because he hasn't proven to be a go-to guy. he scored over 30 only once last year.

if Horford is the warriors sole offseason pick up, does that really elevate this team very much? nah, I'll pass. if we could trade Biedrins for him, sure. but to part with any significant player on this team for him wouldn't be worth it imo.

Horford was an all-star in only his 3rd season, is one of the best post defenders in the entire league and can score inside and mid range. Is athletic and a very good passer. He also plays as hard as anyone in the league.

You are right, Horford is NOT in the same league as West or Jefferson. That would be an insult to Horford.

Only area I see Horford needing to improve in is his rebounding. His lack of scoring is only because of his opportunities. I mean scoring 14pts on only 10 shot attempts per game is pretty damn good. He could easily score 18+pts/game if he got the opportunity. Add to that you get a guy who allowed the least amount of points per post up... WOW.

problem is there is virtually no way to get him. And do you really think Biedrins has much value around the league? The ONLY thing the guy does well is rebound.

he cant score and is a well below average defender.

Man, I just don't see Horford as much more than decent offensively. He got that FG% more possibly than not from having JJ and JSmith, as well as Crawford and other capable scorers, on his team and so not being the opposition's target. Don't think he could ever be the go to player for a team. He defends and rebounds quite well, give him that

I dont get this GO TO scoring thing. So you are saying that we need a guy like Amare who can score 25+/game but not be a great rebounder or defender over a guy who can score 18+/game on 55% shooting and be one of the best defensive players in the league?

I mean how many scorers do we need on this team? Horford is a GOOD offensive player. He can score facing the basket or back to the basket. On only 10 shots/game he is averaging 14pts game being the 4th option, I think it is completely realistic that he could score 18+ here in Oakland. GIven his defensive presense, I think that is more than adequate. Not too many players in this league are great post defenders AND can score 18+.

The guy has skills and good size for sure, but i don't think he could average 18pts a game, not on a decent team anyway. If we could get him for AB and 6th pick, get him

Chum wrote:

bada wrote:

Chum wrote:

bada wrote:I mean how many scorers do we need on this team?

We just need one very good low post scorer, one perimeter slasher who can attack the rim with athleticism and a couple of players who can knock down the 3.

We also need one very good low post defender. I can see Horford as that defender but I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need. He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

I have asked this question a few times in this thread....

What is it SPECIFICALLY about his skill set/game that leads you to believe he cant be a scorer? Saying "he has never been a go to guy" is not really an answer. All that is is as a result of a lack of opportunity.

But for those that say he cant be a go to guy, what does he lack SPECIFICALLY in his game that prevents him from being a scorer?

I really wish I had recordings of his games and could edit together a package that highlights his offensive skills. Youtube crap is always just dunks which does not show skill set.

This highlight package shows a few things other than dunks but is pretty much just 80% dunks which sucks. But you can see on some moves his versatility to spin left or right while back to the basket and his ability to knock down mid range shots.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAsRpdxf32Y[/youtube]

I haven't seen enough of Horford to know if he'd be a good scorer or not. He doesn't average many points. The only thing that I have to suggest he would be a good scorer is you saying he would be. Thus...

Chum wrote:I'm not so sure he can be the low post scorer we need

and my further inquiry...

Chum wrote:He would need to be able to draw the double team down low on a consistant basis. Can he do that?

I'm not against trading for Horford at all bada. In fact I like the idea a lot, if for nothing other than having him be a defensive presence. I'm still not sure he'd be a consistant 20 point scorer, which we need as well as a defensive presence. You seem to think he can be that kind of scorer bada, and I give your opinion some weight, but the truth is until someone actually becomes a consistant high scorer in the NBA I'll have some doubts that that player can be one.

Personally i also like your idea of getting Thibodeau as our head coach. As much as I like a fast paced style of play I'd like a winning style better. Getting Thibodeau, trading for Horford, shifting AR to SF and drafting another big that can play D well could turn the Warriors around very fast and for the better. And yes I'm hinting at Cole Aldrich. No one that dislikes him can seem to point out why. He's probably the best defending big in the draft from what I've been reading, and he wants to be known as a defensive player.

With Thibodeau as Coach
PG - Curry
SG - Williams
SF - AR
PF - Horford
C - Aldrich

I think that front 3 would be scary under a coach that preaches D and knows how to train the bigs. I like this lineup whether or not Horford becomes a 20/10 guy, and if he does it's all just gravy

edit to add: And if Aldrich really wouldn't work as a starting center I say use the pick to try to get a player like Gortat.

With Thibodeau as Coach version 2
PG - Curry
SG - Williams
SF - AR
PF - Horford
C - Gortat

That should put some fear into opposing offenses.

Thanks Chum. That is a very fair response.

migya wrote:
The guy has skills and good size for sure, but i don't think he could average 18pts a game, not on a decent team anyway. If we could get him for AB and 6th pick, get him

Ok, I am going to try ONE more time with you Migs....

WHY do you say that? What SPECIFIC skills does he lack?

He is averaging 14pts a game on being the 4th option on his team, shoots 55% and is an excellent ft shooter... so you cant imagine him scoring 4 more point on a team where people actually pass him the ball?

But more importantly Migya, PLEASE list the exact things he lacks from his game that make you say he can not average 18pts?

Cause at first you said he is "not a skilled basketball player"

bada wrote:

migya wrote:
The guy has skills and good size for sure, but i don't think he could average 18pts a game, not on a decent team anyway. If we could get him for AB and 6th pick, get him

Ok, I am going to try ONE more time with you Migs....

WHY do you say that? What SPECIFIC skills does he lack?

He is averaging 14pts a game on being the 4th option on his team, shoots 55% and is an excellent ft shooter... so you cant imagine him scoring 4 more point on a team where people actually pass him the ball?

But more importantly Migya, PLEASE list the exact things he lacks from his game that make you say he can not average 18pts?

Cause at first you said he is "not a skilled basketball player"

Firstly, when I said he wasn't a skilled basketball player, let me clarify, I meant he wasn't a real well skilled basketball player. I'll paint a picture. Biedrins has skills, yes he does, can't say he isn't a skilled basketball player, but you also can't say Biedrins is a supremely skilled player. Think I painted that picture well and made it easy. Horford has skills, he isn't no Bosh or Amare. Continuing with my Biedrins picture, Biedrins averaged 11.9pts last season as the fourth option, at best, many will likely say he was fifth or sixth option. He also averaged 57.8FG% and 11.2rebs, more than Horford. Maybe he could average 18pts? I think he never will.

You have your opinion on Horford, I have mine. Again, if we can get him for AB and the 6th pick, I'd still do it, but I'd prefer MGasol/BLopez/Love/AJeff

hey how about this one..

Biedrins & Maggette for Yao

Ellis for Iggy

throw in the #6 if need be

No to the Yao one. Unless his contract expires [idk] but otherwise not paying someone to be injured...

and

If we're giving both Ellis AND the 6th pick, I'd rather it be for the #2 pick than Iguodala. That's a little much... We need interior help. Badly... unless we could somehow get Dalembert too cuz he expires after next season... dont know all the #'s though so....