first off wrote:forget where I read it but some site thought Cousins was going to be the next Horford
Werid. I don't think their games resemble each other in any way...
Forget AlJeff, Love, Gasol, and Bosh
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TMC wrote:first off wrote:forget where I read it but some site thought Cousins was going to be the next Horford
Werid. I don't think their games resemble each other in any way...
If he loses weight and gets in shape. I could see it. He got lazy as the as the year went on at Memphis. I guess throwing outlet passes to Wall and watching him sprint down court can do that.
JSU2004 wrote:TMC wrote:first off wrote:forget where I read it but some site thought Cousins was going to be the next Horford
Werid. I don't think their games resemble each other in any way...
If he loses weight and gets in shape. I could see it. He got lazy as the as the year went on at Memphis. I guess throwing outlet passes to Wall and watching him sprint down court can do that.
Cousins is taller and heavier than Horford. He'll probably remain heavier than Horford even after he gets rid of his baby fat.
From bada's descriptions of Horford, and from what little I've seen of him, he seems to put the emphasis on defense. Cousins looks like he'll be a better low post scorer, possibly a better rebounder and not as good a defender.
All speculation though. We won't know what Cousins is really like until he starts getting serious minutes with the Warriors
Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Marc Gasol I haven't seen play enough, but from I have seen he is more of a post 'presence.' I'd like to see him perform well for more than one year before I jump on that bandwagon though. And if he came to W's, would he automatically become the #1 option? if not, what's the point? whoever could come to the warriors and automatically be the #1 option, that's who we should primarily target.
I think the gsw's have a serious chance of being able to nab a big man if they could get creative enough.
Al Jefferson
Boozer
Bosh
David West
M. Gasol
Amare?
if the price is right, Ellis, AR, our 1st rounder, youngins & fillers could become trade chips. a tandem of Curry and D. West is intriguing. yeah West is 30 but his game isn't athletically based, his post game is proven, and getting 3-4 years out of him would be cool. the short term gains of turning around this franchise (to attract future FA's) would outweigh any longterm risk of losing young talent imo. A package of Ellis, AR, & a high 1st round pick.....there's no telling what kind of elite talent that could bring.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Marc Gasol I haven't seen play enough, but from I have seen he is more of a post 'presence.' I'd like to see him perform well for more than one year before I jump on that bandwagon though. And if he came to W's, would he automatically become the #1 option? if not, what's the point? whoever could come to the warriors and automatically be the #1 option, that's who we should primarily target.
I think the gsw's have a serious chance of being able to nab a big man if they could get creative enough.
Al Jefferson
Boozer
Bosh
David West
M. Gasol
Amare?
if the price is right, Ellis, AR, our 1st rounder, youngins & fillers could become trade chips. a tandem of Curry and D. West is intriguing. yeah West is 30 but his game isn't athletically based, his post game is proven, and getting 3-4 years out of him would be cool. the short term gains of turning around this franchise (to attract future FA's) would outweigh any longterm risk of losing young talent imo. A package of Ellis, AR, & a high 1st round pick.....there's no telling what kind of elite talent that could bring.
rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.
Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.
But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything
I do have a hard time parting with AR. there is just something about his overall game that makes me think warriors would regret trading him. it really would depend on the name we'd be getting back. in a trade package that would bring Bosh or Amare? for sure, they are young and already proven superstars.
bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.
Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.
But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything
from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.
rockyBeli wrote:bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.
Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.
But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything
from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.
Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.
You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.
or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..
Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.
I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.
And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.
come to think of it, most of the Nba champions of the last 20 years have had a post presence...
Lakers - P Gasol
Celtics - KG
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
Pistons - R. Wallace?
Spurs - Duncan
Lakers x 3 - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
MJ - x6 - There goes my theory, but cmon it's the G.O.A.T!
Rockets - Hakeem
Lakers - P Gasol
Celtics - KG
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
Pistons - R. Wallace?
Spurs - Duncan
Lakers x 3 - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
MJ - x6 - There goes my theory, but cmon it's the G.O.A.T!
Rockets - Hakeem
rockyBeli wrote:come to think of it, most of the Nba champions of the last 20 years have had a post presence...
Lakers - P Gasol
Celtics - KG
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
Pistons - R. Wallace?
Spurs - Duncan
Lakers x 3 - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
MJ - x6 - There goes my theory, but cmon it's the G.O.A.T!
Rockets - Hakeem
No what else about that list that is interesting... all of them other than perhaps Shaq were OUTSTANDING defensive players.
bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.
Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.
But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything
from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.
Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.
You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.
or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..
Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.
I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.
And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.
Biedrins has been a top rebounder in the league when healthy. Randolph can pull down some boards as well, he was also injured. we don't have D or rebounding but some attribute that to Don Nelson, with his undersized lineups and zero D philosophy. it could be the roster though.
I'm not doubting that Horford can become a go-to guy. he is young, only in his 3rd year. just like A. Randolph can become a superstar. but is it worth it to trade for someone who hasn't even proven to be 'the man' or taking a bulk of his team's FG attempts? it's like another experiment / question mark that the fans get to become observers of. Horford is not in the same category of even David West or Al Jefferson because he hasn't proven to be a go-to guy. he scored over 30 only once last year.
if Horford is the warriors sole offseason pick up, does that really elevate this team very much? nah, I'll pass. if we could trade Biedrins for him, sure. but to part with any significant player on this team for him wouldn't be worth it imo.
Last edited by rockyBeli on Mon May 17, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:come to think of it, most of the Nba champions of the last 20 years have had a post presence...
Lakers - P Gasol
Celtics - KG
Spurs - Duncan
Heat - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
Pistons - R. Wallace?
Spurs - Duncan
Lakers x 3 - Shaq
Spurs - Duncan
MJ - x6 - There goes my theory, but cmon it's the G.O.A.T!
Rockets - Hakeem
No what else about that list that is interesting... all of them other than perhaps Shaq were OUTSTANDING defensive players.
and Shaq, a 4-time champion
so say the Warriors target Horford...who would you trade for him?
rockyBeli wrote:bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:bada wrote:rockyBeli wrote:Horford poses to many problems I think. undersized, and his post game is questionable at best.
I see him as more of a scrapper, getting put backs and easy baskets. he's not used as a "go-to" guy in the paint for the Hawks. I think that's what the W's need desperately. they seriously haven't had one of those since Chris Webber. Horford would be an upgrade from Biedrins, but I see them as the same type of player...their offense comes from easy buckets and putbacks, not a fundamental post game.
Honestly I stopped reading after this paragraph.
Firstly I see you are just concerned with offense. And if you honestly think Biedrins and Horford are the same player on offense then I dont think you have ever watched Horford play. He is very skilled on the offensive side and has a very nice mid range jumper. Guess I have missed all those 15 footers that Biedrins nails every game.
But more importantly you seem to be neglecting that Horford is one of the games best post defenders. I would argue that we need that more than anything
from what I've seen he is not close to being the 'man' for the Hawks when it comes to scoring. 4th option on the team and 4th in FG attempts. I disagree about the post defense being the greatest need. this team hasn't had a post presence since Webber, and it coincided with the playoff drought. all the good teams have someone they could dump the ball off to in the post when jumpers aren't falling. and having an inside outside opens the spacing up and open looks for Curry, Morrow, Azu, etc. all the teams in playoffs right now have a go-to guy in the post --> KG, Amare, D. Howard, and P. Gasol.
Just because he is NOT a go to guy, does not mean he CANT be a go to guy.
You realize that Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith are his teammates right. 3 of the more selfish offensive players in the league.
or that Woodson was his coach who's system is pretty much isolation after isolation..
Talk to ANY Hawk fan and they will tell you they are IRATE about not using Horford more.
I would like you to tell me exactly what part of his game offensively you dont like. Not based on his current usage, but rather break his offensive game down and tell me what you dont like.
And for me, when you win 20 something games but rank at the top of the league in offense, scoring is NOT our problem. We can not defend or rebound. THAT is our problem.
Biedrins has been a top rebounder in the league when healthy. Randolph can pull down some boards as well, he was also injured. we don't have D or rebounding but some attribute that to Don Nelson, with his undersized lineups and zero D philosophy. it could be the roster though.
I'm not doubting that Horford can become a go-to guy. he is young, only in his 3rd year. just like A. Randolph can become a superstar. but is it worth it to trade for someone who hasn't even proven to be 'the man' or taking a bulk of his team's FG attempts? it's like another experiment / question mark that the fans get to become observers of. Horford is not in the same category of even David West or Al Jefferson because he hasn't proven to be a go-to guy. he scored over 30 only once last year.
if Horford is the warriors sole offseason pick up, does that really elevate this team very much? nah, I'll pass. if we could trade Biedrins for him, sure. but to part with any significant player on this team for him wouldn't be worth it imo.
Horford was an all-star in only his 3rd season, is one of the best post defenders in the entire league and can score inside and mid range. Is athletic and a very good passer. He also plays as hard as anyone in the league.
You are right, Horford is NOT in the same league as West or Jefferson. That would be an insult to Horford.
Only area I see Horford needing to improve in is his rebounding. His lack of scoring is only because of his opportunities. I mean scoring 14pts on only 10 shot attempts per game is pretty damn good. He could easily score 18+pts/game if he got the opportunity. Add to that you get a guy who allowed the least amount of points per post up... WOW.
problem is there is virtually no way to get him. And do you really think Biedrins has much value around the league? The ONLY thing the guy does well is rebound.
he cant score and is a well below average defender.