What would you trade for Bogut?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:06 am
Since he posted in this thread after I asked him for examples, I dont think Migya is going to answer me. So does anyone have any examples in say the last 20 years where a "star big" in his prime was stolen in a trade? I am struggling to come up with even one.

migya wrote:I really think people think we have to sell the whole house to get talent, especially a talented big and we don't, just as other teams throughout the years haven't had to.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:56 pm
Rasheed Wallace to Atlanta and to Detroit after a few days???


Sorry, not many come to mind... :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:29 pm
TMC wrote:Rasheed Wallace to Atlanta and to Detroit after a few days???


Sorry, not many come to mind... :wink:


well hopefully Migya will respond as obviously he has several in mind.

I have been racking my brain but I honestly cant think of any.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:42 pm
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:if he's ever able to lift his arm over his head again, would love Bogurt. No chance in hell we land him though



Bogut was solid this season, but not a star by any means. He does what Centers should do, in rebounding, shotblocking and scoring down low well, but he is not that skilled, definately not the most among Centers


I actually think he's one of the most skilled big men in the game- great with both hands and is a fantastic passer



I'm not that impressed by him. I haven't seen a heap of him, but have seen a fair bit and I think he is a prototypical Center, but isn't a star. He does what is required by a Center and that is rebound and block shots well, but he is not super at it, though is very good. He has to score more to be a real star big and finally get fully healthy, the real IF about him


right now - he's better than your boy Al Jefferson


Um, actually right now Bogut may never play again. Let's say Bogut heals up and comes back good as new next season, he's no where near as good a low post scorer as Al Jefferson. He's a much better defender but not in the same class as a scorer.



Jefferson's averaging what - 2 points more a game than him right now?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:59 pm
Quazza wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:if he's ever able to lift his arm over his head again, would love Bogurt. No chance in hell we land him though



Bogut was solid this season, but not a star by any means. He does what Centers should do, in rebounding, shotblocking and scoring down low well, but he is not that skilled, definately not the most among Centers


I actually think he's one of the most skilled big men in the game- great with both hands and is a fantastic passer



I'm not that impressed by him. I haven't seen a heap of him, but have seen a fair bit and I think he is a prototypical Center, but isn't a star. He does what is required by a Center and that is rebound and block shots well, but he is not super at it, though is very good. He has to score more to be a real star big and finally get fully healthy, the real IF about him


right now - he's better than your boy Al Jefferson


Um, actually right now Bogut may never play again. Let's say Bogut heals up and comes back good as new next season, he's no where near as good a low post scorer as Al Jefferson. He's a much better defender but not in the same class as a scorer.



Jefferson's averaging what - 2 points more a game than him right now?


Bogut get's his points off of designed plays and put backs. He also gets a lot of open lane drives (another reason I think he'd be great on the Warriros.) at least that's what I've seen. Jefferson get's his points with double and triple team defenders on him when he goes into isolation. Jefferson is a magician in the paint. He is a really gifted post scorer. Just my opinion.

I'd still take Bogut without a doubt though, as I mentioned before, because he is a better rebounder and defender. You won't get me to say Bogut is a bad player in any way. I started this thread because he's one of my favorite centers :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:36 pm
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:if he's ever able to lift his arm over his head again, would love Bogurt. No chance in hell we land him though



Bogut was solid this season, but not a star by any means. He does what Centers should do, in rebounding, shotblocking and scoring down low well, but he is not that skilled, definately not the most among Centers


I actually think he's one of the most skilled big men in the game- great with both hands and is a fantastic passer



I'm not that impressed by him. I haven't seen a heap of him, but have seen a fair bit and I think he is a prototypical Center, but isn't a star. He does what is required by a Center and that is rebound and block shots well, but he is not super at it, though is very good. He has to score more to be a real star big and finally get fully healthy, the real IF about him


right now - he's better than your boy Al Jefferson


Um, actually right now Bogut may never play again. Let's say Bogut heals up and comes back good as new next season, he's no where near as good a low post scorer as Al Jefferson. He's a much better defender but not in the same class as a scorer.



Jefferson's averaging what - 2 points more a game than him right now?


Bogut get's his points off of designed plays and put backs. He also gets a lot of open lane drives (another reason I think he'd be great on the Warriros.) at least that's what I've seen. Jefferson get's his points with double and triple team defenders on him when he goes into isolation. Jefferson is a magician in the paint. He is a really gifted post scorer. Just my opinion.



Yea, offensively there is no comparison between the two. Actually, I don't think there is a big in the nba with the post skills AJefferson has, even Duncan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:38 pm
bada wrote:Since he posted in this thread after I asked him for examples, I dont think Migya is going to answer me. So does anyone have any examples in say the last 20 years where a "star big" in his prime was stolen in a trade? I am struggling to come up with even one.

migya wrote:I really think people think we have to sell the whole house to get talent, especially a talented big and we don't, just as other teams throughout the years haven't had to.




Alright, I'll go searching now. Don't act like it is an impossibility. With the nba at the state where it is, financially especially and the team likely getting bought by one of the richest there is, the chances are good to pull it off
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:48 am
migya wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:if he's ever able to lift his arm over his head again, would love Bogurt. No chance in hell we land him though



Bogut was solid this season, but not a star by any means. He does what Centers should do, in rebounding, shotblocking and scoring down low well, but he is not that skilled, definately not the most among Centers


I actually think he's one of the most skilled big men in the game- great with both hands and is a fantastic passer



I'm not that impressed by him. I haven't seen a heap of him, but have seen a fair bit and I think he is a prototypical Center, but isn't a star. He does what is required by a Center and that is rebound and block shots well, but he is not super at it, though is very good. He has to score more to be a real star big and finally get fully healthy, the real IF about him


right now - he's better than your boy Al Jefferson


Um, actually right now Bogut may never play again. Let's say Bogut heals up and comes back good as new next season, he's no where near as good a low post scorer as Al Jefferson. He's a much better defender but not in the same class as a scorer.



Jefferson's averaging what - 2 points more a game than him right now?


Bogut get's his points off of designed plays and put backs. He also gets a lot of open lane drives (another reason I think he'd be great on the Warriros.) at least that's what I've seen. Jefferson get's his points with double and triple team defenders on him when he goes into isolation. Jefferson is a magician in the paint. He is a really gifted post scorer. Just my opinion.



Yea, offensively there is no comparison between the two. Actually, I don't think there is a big in the nba with the post skills AJefferson has, even Duncan


lol you're raging hard on for Big Al is sending you loopy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:16 am
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
Chum wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:
migya wrote:
Quazza wrote:if he's ever able to lift his arm over his head again, would love Bogurt. No chance in hell we land him though



Bogut was solid this season, but not a star by any means. He does what Centers should do, in rebounding, shotblocking and scoring down low well, but he is not that skilled, definately not the most among Centers


I actually think he's one of the most skilled big men in the game- great with both hands and is a fantastic passer



I'm not that impressed by him. I haven't seen a heap of him, but have seen a fair bit and I think he is a prototypical Center, but isn't a star. He does what is required by a Center and that is rebound and block shots well, but he is not super at it, though is very good. He has to score more to be a real star big and finally get fully healthy, the real IF about him


right now - he's better than your boy Al Jefferson


Um, actually right now Bogut may never play again. Let's say Bogut heals up and comes back good as new next season, he's no where near as good a low post scorer as Al Jefferson. He's a much better defender but not in the same class as a scorer.



Jefferson's averaging what - 2 points more a game than him right now?


Bogut get's his points off of designed plays and put backs. He also gets a lot of open lane drives (another reason I think he'd be great on the Warriros.) at least that's what I've seen. Jefferson get's his points with double and triple team defenders on him when he goes into isolation. Jefferson is a magician in the paint. He is a really gifted post scorer. Just my opinion.



Yea, offensively there is no comparison between the two. Actually, I don't think there is a big in the nba with the post skills AJefferson has, even Duncan


lol you're raging hard on for Big Al is sending you loopy



You seen him play? If so, you have to agree. AJefferson is less this season than what he has been the last few seasons, but the guy was the best post scorer in the nba
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:36 am
bada wrote:Since he posted in this thread after I asked him for examples, I dont think Migya is going to answer me. So does anyone have any examples in say the last 20 years where a "star big" in his prime was stolen in a trade? I am struggling to come up with even one.

migya wrote:I really think people think we have to sell the whole house to get talent, especially a talented big and we don't, just as other teams throughout the years haven't had to.




Alright, I'll go searching now. Don't act like it is an impossibility. With the nba at the state where it is, financially especially and the team likely getting bought by one of the richest there is, the chances are good to pull it off.


EDIT: It is being tedious to search for any sort of trades, let alone being specific, but off the top of my head -

I remember in 1992-93, Barkley from 76ers to Suns for Hornacek, Lang and Perry. Barkley was always a PF so he countes for star big. Hornacek was quite good, but nowhere near top ten guards and the other two in that trade were pretty bad.

You can count Seattle trading Benoit Benjamin to Lakers for Sam Perkins, who became a very key player for them.

Derrick Coleman from Nets to 76ers for Bradley. Coleman was still considered a star PF, though one with a pretty bad attitude.

You can say Jermaine from Pacers to Raptors was a steal, at least not even. He was deteriorating, at least I think he was, but that trade was pretty ridiculous at the time from a talent for talent point of view.

Mourning was traded for what I consider rather low value, especially as he was the superstar big and the Hornets got no good big in return. Glen Rice was traded by Miami with Matt Geiger, Khalid Reeves and 1996 1st-round pick to Charlotte Hornets for LeRon Ellis, Alonzo Mourning and Pete Myers. Rice was not an allstar when he was in Miami and I don't think he had as good a season as Monta had this season ever in his career, especially with the Heat not being such a good team either.


Some may that star bigs are better than this, then MGasol, BLopez and Love are not star bigs then are they. More like very good, key bigs that can change the team's fortunes. There are more, these are just ones I could think of, as trying to search for it using a couple of search engines brings up not so specific results, like I've used such terms as "nba transactions 1990 2010", "nba trades 1991", and going up the years etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:55 am
migya wrote:
Alright, I'll go searching now. Don't act like it is an impossibility. With the nba at the state where it is, financially especially and the team likely getting bought by one of the richest there is, the chances are good to pull it off.

No, not impossible to make lopsided trades. In fact maybe even more possible because of the financial aspects of the salary cap and luxury tax. And if Biedrins was an expiring contract, then I would say this could very well be possible. But the combination of his lack of production along with a crippling contract (keep in mind his salary next year will be almost 20% of the total cap) make him almost untradable unles you are ALSO giving up something a HUGE value (i.e a top 3 pick)


Anyway, thanks for putting some trades out there. I have been racking my brain. Yes, it is hard to go back in the past because we cant look at the trades through the eyes of what these players became, but rather what the perception of them was at the time. Which is hard to remember.

Just like we are saying Jefferson, Love, Gasol, Lopez ect are "star bigs"... 10 years from now we may look at these guys as average players. who knows.

migya wrote:I remember in 1992-93, Barkley from 76ers to Suns for Hornacek, Lang and Perry. Barkley was always a PF so he countes for star big. Hornacek was quite good, but nowhere near top ten guards and the other two in that trade were pretty bad.
Hornacek was a very solid player in the prime of his career and was coming off a 20pt/game season. The other two players were a big center and a young promising PF who was the 7th pick in the draft a few year prior. Perhaps MOST importantly, Barkley DEMANDED to be traded. They did not have a lot of leverage. But I gotta give you this one.. not a good trade for Phoenix.


You can count Seattle trading Benoit Benjamin to Lakers for Sam Perkins, who became a very key player for them.
Benoit was a broken down mess by this point and Perkins was like in his 10th season. I am talking about players still in their prime years.

Derrick Coleman from Nets to 76ers for Bradley. Coleman was still considered a star PF, though one with a pretty bad attitude.

Man was Coleman talented. Too bad he was such a lazy f*ck. But getting Bradley was pretty good value at the time. Bradley was only in his 3rd season and had a 12pts, 8 reb, and almost 4 blocks/game season. He was viewed at the time as one of the games most proming young big men. Hardly a lopsided deal considering all the issues surrounding Coleman.

migya wrote:You can say Jermaine from Pacers to Raptors was a steal, at least not even. He was deteriorating, at least I think he was, but that trade was pretty ridiculous at the time from a talent for talent point of view.
Again, Jermaine was in his 13th season. I am not talking about acquiring end of their career guys but rather guys that we can build our team around. Pacers got:
T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, Maceo Baston, rights to Roy Hibbert. So yeah, not a great trade but again we are talking about a guy in the last stages of his career.

migya wrote:Mourning was traded for what I consider rather low value, especially as he was the superstar big and the Hornets got no good big in return. Glen Rice was traded by Miami with Matt Geiger, Khalid Reeves and 1996 1st-round pick to Charlotte Hornets for LeRon Ellis, Alonzo Mourning and Pete Myers. Rice was not an allstar when he was in Miami and I don't think he had as good a season as Monta had this season ever in his career, especially with the Heat not being such a good team either.
Dude, Khalid "Big Country" Reeves was not a good big??? LOL.. just kidding. yeah, this one was pretty bad. Will give you this one.


I think it just comes down to our percieved value of Biedrins. I think he has little to no value considering his lack of development, his contract, his complete lack of confidence now, and the fact that you can not even play him in the 4th qtr in a competitive game because of his ft shooting.

Anyway, good stuff migs. enjoyed the conversation.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:20 pm
bada wrote:
migya wrote:
Alright, I'll go searching now. Don't act like it is an impossibility. With the nba at the state where it is, financially especially and the team likely getting bought by one of the richest there is, the chances are good to pull it off.

No, not impossible to make lopsided trades. In fact maybe even more possible because of the financial aspects of the salary cap and luxury tax. And if Biedrins was an expiring contract, then I would say this could very well be possible. But the combination of his lack of production along with a crippling contract (keep in mind his salary next year will be almost 20% of the total cap) make him almost untradable unles you are ALSO giving up something a HUGE value (i.e a top 3 pick)


Anyway, thanks for putting some trades out there. I have been racking my brain. Yes, it is hard to go back in the past because we cant look at the trades through the eyes of what these players became, but rather what the perception of them was at the time. Which is hard to remember.

Just like we are saying Jefferson, Love, Gasol, Lopez ect are "star bigs"... 10 years from now we may look at these guys as average players. who knows.


I've said recently that the first explored trade should be AB and the lottery big for one of these goods bigs we've spoken about. That way, we replace him straight away instead of having to try to find some sort of trade to get rid of him so we don't have him as well as the attained big.


bada wrote:
migya wrote:I remember in 1992-93, Barkley from 76ers to Suns for Hornacek, Lang and Perry. Barkley was always a PF so he countes for star big. Hornacek was quite good, but nowhere near top ten guards and the other two in that trade were pretty bad.
Hornacek was a very solid player in the prime of his career and was coming off a 20pt/game season. The other two players were a big center and a young promising PF who was the 7th pick in the draft a few year prior. Perhaps MOST importantly, Barkley DEMANDED to be traded. They did not have a lot of leverage. But I gotta give you this one.. not a good trade for Phoenix.


You mean not a good trade for the 76ers :wink:


bada wrote:
You can count Seattle trading Benoit Benjamin to Lakers for Sam Perkins, who became a very key player for them.
Benoit was a broken down mess by this point and Perkins was like in his 10th season. I am talking about players still in their prime years.


Perkins was pretty old, but he was one of the best bigs there was at the time and fit in to Seattle real well, that's why I mentioned that trade. He was actually the key in the playoff series against Houston (twice in about four years) if you remember.


bada wrote:I think it just comes down to our percieved value of Biedrins. I think he has little to no value considering his lack of development, his contract, his complete lack of confidence now, and the fact that you can not even play him in the 4th qtr in a competitive game because of his ft shooting.

Anyway, good stuff migs. enjoyed the conversation.


Well, AB's value is rather low right now, at least compared to what it was, but I do think a trade with him can happen, likely having to be coupled with the lottery pick
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