TMC wrote:

bada wrote:

migya wrote:I see him as a top 20 player ever, at the very least. Up until two years ago, his career was better than Kobe's and this is statistical and literal, for anyone who saw them play. Iverson is another superstar that never won a championship and was on relatively bad teams, like Barkley in Philadelphia and Ewing in New York, for the first seven seasons anyway.

Reckon he'll come back, maybe for a team like San Antonio, who might look for that high power to get them over the rest of the contender teams

WHAT? Seriously? AI is not even in the same world as a player to Kobe. And Top 20? Man, scoring points sure gets overated. AI was nowhere close to being a complete player... while I admired his tenacity, I think he is WAY overrated by the masses... this post being further evidence.

Eh... I don't totally agree with any of you. Of course saying AI's career was better than Kobe is nonsensical, but I also don't think he was so detrimental as you imply, Bada. He was a GREAT scorer, once of the best we've seen, and that's one of the keys of bball.

Complete?. Of course not. But he was a wonderful offensive weapon, and never really had much help in his prime and still managed to make it to the finals with a pretty awful team.

OK, but I was responding to a post that put him in the top 20 players that have EVER played the game. And has had a better career than Kobe. Just such rediculous statements.

Not saying he was not a good player. Of course he was. He was a very good scorer. One of the best we have seen? Dont agree with that. I mean the guy shot below 43% from the field for 10 of his 13 years. He was a great VOLUME scorer. He was tenacious going to the basket and was extremely explosive. He also had a quick release and an ability to fade away on his J.

But anyone that shot that poorely of a % and averaged nearly 4 to's game for a 13 year career, can not be considered a Top 20 players of all time... nor in my mind can he be called "one of the greatest scorers we have seen"

bada wrote:OK, but I was responding to a post that put him in the top 20 players that have EVER played the game. And has had a better career than Kobe. Just such rediculous statements.

Yeah, well, he's clearly a top 100 player, all time. Top 50?. I've got serious doubts. Top 20?. Hell, no...

bada wrote:But anyone that shot that poorely of a % and averaged nearly 4 to's game for a 13 year career, can not be considered a Top 20 players of all time... nor in my mind can he be called "one of the greatest scorers we have seen"

Oh, well, I do believe he was one of the greatest scorers I've seen. Really. You gotta be to overcome the size deficit. You gotta be to average that much when everybody knows that you're gonna take every shoot you can, so defenses close over you because... well, you're plan A, B and C.

I haven't seen many players in my lifetime able to do what he did, over such a long period of time and in a team as bad as Philly. Of course he's one-dimensional and that doesn't allow me to rate him even higher, but hey, as a scorer, I've got very few doubts about his value.

bada wrote:

TMC wrote:

bada wrote:

migya wrote:I see him as a top 20 player ever, at the very least. Up until two years ago, his career was better than Kobe's and this is statistical and literal, for anyone who saw them play. Iverson is another superstar that never won a championship and was on relatively bad teams, like Barkley in Philadelphia and Ewing in New York, for the first seven seasons anyway.

Reckon he'll come back, maybe for a team like San Antonio, who might look for that high power to get them over the rest of the contender teams

WHAT? Seriously? AI is not even in the same world as a player to Kobe. And Top 20? Man, scoring points sure gets overated. AI was nowhere close to being a complete player... while I admired his tenacity, I think he is WAY overrated by the masses... this post being further evidence.

Eh... I don't totally agree with any of you. Of course saying AI's career was better than Kobe is nonsensical, but I also don't think he was so detrimental as you imply, Bada. He was a GREAT scorer, once of the best we've seen, and that's one of the keys of bball.

Complete?. Of course not. But he was a wonderful offensive weapon, and never really had much help in his prime and still managed to make it to the finals with a pretty awful team.

OK, but I was responding to a post that put him in the top 20 players that have EVER played the game. And has had a better career than Kobe. Just such rediculous statements.

Not saying he was not a good player. Of course he was. He was a very good scorer. One of the best we have seen? Dont agree with that. I mean the guy shot below 43% from the field for 10 of his 13 years. He was a great VOLUME scorer. He was tenacious going to the basket and was extremely explosive. He also had a quick release and an ability to fade away on his J.

But anyone that shot that poorely of a % and averaged nearly 4 to's game for a 13 year career, can not be considered a Top 20 players of all time... nor in my mind can he be called "one of the greatest scorers we have seen"

Bada, I'll put it down to point of view and how it differs for most people.


Allen Iverson was great from day one and I'll explain and show how:

1.Not only did he arrive in the nba to an awful team that didn't win and was loaded with offensive hogs, he was exected to be the man to carry that team to success.

2.Iverson took an awful 76ers team, that wasn't loaded at all, to the finals, perhaps the most improbable and untalented team to go to the finals in twenty years or more.

3.Iverson is 6 foot in shoes and yet outscored ALL players most seasons in his career.

4.Iverson, though some people see him as just a scorer, was among the best in assists many years in his career. Iverson did get alot of TOs, about three and a half a game, but the ball had to be in his hands almost all the time.

5.Iverson was a very good defender, though he faded in the last four years of his career. His steals average is proof of his defense and he defended many opposing guards well, just was never seen as a great defender, since he was a great scorer.

6.Iverson was durable and resilient, being smacked around since day one, suffering numerous injuries and yet playing through them.


In comparison, Kobe:

1.Arrived to a great team that was championship caliber and from late in his second season, was given all the opportunities to be the megastar he was heralded to be. Playing with Shaq allowed him to be much freer of defensive attention than Iverson, not even close.

2.Won three championships with Shaq, without him he was seen as incapable of taking a team to the finals or a championship again, until he got Gasol, another star, next to him. Kobe did less with what he had than Iverson did.

3.Kobe is 6'6, a very good height for his position and basically never smaller than his direct opponent. He has been the best scorer or among the top few scorers most of his carrer, but really just the last six to eight years, not in the first few years. Iverson was nba ready straight away.

4.Kobe has been decent in assists in his career, but for a player with the ball in his hands as much as he did and with Shaq as his teammate, he really should have had more and really should have had more than Iverson. Kobe got over three TOs a game for his career and he shared the ball with Shaq, Iverson got the defensive attention all the time.

5.Kobe is a very good defender, used to be a great one, but Iverson got more steals and always had quicker hands. Shaq was a very good defender as well for most of his career and that makes it easier for Kobe when he's defending.

6.Kobe is also durable, but hasn't been smacked around nearly a quarter as much as what Iverson has.


As for me saying that Iverson is a top 20 player ever - Look at his career and name me 20 players better than him in nba history. Isiah Thomas, though getting two championships, I don't consider better than Iverson, as close as those two are in comparison. It comes down to Iverson having far less talent around him and that is a huge factor. Name me 20 players better than Iverson

surely you don't believe Iverson was a better defender than Kobe?

on you "steals" logic, Monta will we all defensive this year

migya wrote:Bada, I'll put it down to point of view and how it differs for most people.


Allen Iverson was great from day one and I'll explain and show how:

1.Not only did he arrive in the nba to an awful team that didn't win and was loaded with offensive hogs, he was exected to be the man to carry that team to success.

And they did not really win much with him there. Only ONCE in his Phily career did they win 50 games... and this was in a period when the Eastern Conference was completely terrible. And yes, they did not have a great roster but did have guys like Derrick Coleman, Jerry Stackhouse, Clarence Weatherspoon and Scott Williams early in his career.

migya wrote:2.Iverson took an awful 76ers team, that wasn't loaded at all, to the finals, perhaps the most improbable and untalented team to go to the finals in twenty years or more.

Cant argue with you there but I will also say that the Eastern Conference that year was probably the worst it is has been in 20 years. That team has some solid role players who all just clicked together but AI was phenominal that season.

migya wrote:3.Iverson is 6 foot in shoes and yet outscored ALL players most seasons in his career.

Outscored AND outshot everyone. He shot a god awful % his entire career and took more shots than anyone in the league most years. In fact he has taken more shots than any active player in the league and ranks 12th all time in shots taken despite playing many years less than most anyone in that list. 9 of his 13 years he finished in the top 3 in shot attempts in a season. This screams VOLUME SCORER. I will give you that he is probbably the greatest under 6 foot scorer the league has seen

migya wrote:4.Iverson, though some people see him as just a scorer, was among the best in assists many years in his career. Iverson did get alot of TOs, about three and a half a game, but the ball had to be in his hands almost all the time.

Just not true. ONE season he finished 5th in assists... most other years he was well outside the top 10. He was a decent enough passer but he was not among the best as you say. Like you said, he had the "ball in his hands almost all the time"... you will rack up some assists just by this fact. But he was never much of a playmaker for others in that fashion.

migya wrote:5.Iverson was a very good defender, though he faded in the last four years of his career. His steals average is proof of his defense and he defended many opposing guards well, just was never seen as a great defender, since he was a great scorer.

He was a disruptive defender, never a great defender. Steals is certainly part of the game and he was opportunistic in that regard... but he gambled A LOT by trying to jump into passing lanes and got beat quite a bit. Average defender at best. Maybe his high steal numbers put him better than average.

migya wrote:6.Iverson was durable and resilient, being smacked around since day one, suffering numerous injuries and yet playing through them.

Cant argue with you there and admire him for that.

migya wrote:In comparison, Kobe:

Not going to respond to your Kobe stuff cause it is rediculous.

migya wrote:As for me saying that Iverson is a top 20 player ever - Look at his career and name me 20 players better than him in nba history. Isiah Thomas, though getting two championships, I don't consider better than Iverson, as close as those two are in comparison. It comes down to Iverson having far less talent around him and that is a huge factor. Name me 20 players better than Iverson

Without thinking too hard about it, here are 25. This does not even include guys like Moses Malone, Kevin McHale, Earl Monroe, Willis Reed, Nate Arhicbald, Bob Cousy, etc.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Julius Erving
George Gervin
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Karl Malone
Pete Maravich
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Jerry West
Bill Walton


I think Iverson while a great player was much more significant culturally than he was as a player. Scoring is the sexy stat and he was a damn good one.... but he thrived in an era of isolation basketball where he was almost impossible to handle one on one. He shot a terrible %, was always among the leaders in turnovers (12th most in NBA history), and his teams only once won 50 games in a conference devoid of many good teams.

Lets not confuse his gaudy scoring avg and significant cultural impact with all-around greatness.

bada wrote:

migya wrote:In comparison, Kobe:

Not going to respond to your Kobe stuff cause it is rediculous.

What I said about Kobe is true, if you don't agree that's with you. As for FG%, Kobe was not much better than Iverson and is a volume shooter himself.

migya wrote:As for me saying that Iverson is a top 20 player ever - Look at his career and name me 20 players better than him in nba history. Isiah Thomas, though getting two championships, I don't consider better than Iverson, as close as those two are in comparison. It comes down to Iverson having far less talent around him and that is a huge factor. Name me 20 players better than Iverson

Without thinking too hard about it, here are 25. This does not even include guys like Moses Malone, Kevin McHale, Earl Monroe, Willis Reed, Nate Arhicbald, Bob Cousy, etc.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Julius Erving
George Gervin
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Karl Malone
Pete Maravich
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Jerry West
Bill Walton
[/quote]


Quite a few of those players it is arguable whether they can be ranked ahead of Iverson alltime, a few definately are not ahead of him. Walton was great in college, great for a few years in the nba, that's it. I won't go through them all, but I'll say that Iverson may well be remembered and unappreciated for what he did. He'll likely be known more for his independent attitude than anything else and that is wrong

migya wrote:

bada wrote:

migya wrote:In comparison, Kobe:

Not going to respond to your Kobe stuff cause it is rediculous.

What I said about Kobe is true, if you don't agree that's with you. As for FG%, Kobe was not much better than Iverson and is a volume shooter himself.

me and about 99% of the population. AI is NOT a better or equal player to Kobe. Just is not true.

migya wrote:Quite a few of those players it is arguable whether they can be ranked ahead of Iverson alltime, a few definately are not ahead of him. Walton was great in college, great for a few years in the nba, that's it. I won't go through them all, but I'll say that Iverson may well be remembered and unappreciated for what he did. He'll likely be known more for his independent attitude than anything else and that is wrong

If you want to say that Iverson had a more productive career than Walton, I totally agree with you. Walton's career was completely derailed by his foot injury. But Iverson can't hold Walton's jock in terms of a basketball player. Walton was perhaps on the the most complete players to ever play the game. He could score inside or outside. Was an incredible defender and blocker. Amazing rebounder and was one of the best passing big men the game has seen.

So are you saying Iverson had the better NBA career or that Iverson was a better player than Walton?

bada wrote:

migya wrote:

bada wrote:

migya wrote:In comparison, Kobe:

Not going to respond to your Kobe stuff cause it is rediculous.

What I said about Kobe is true, if you don't agree that's with you. As for FG%, Kobe was not much better than Iverson and is a volume shooter himself.

me and about 99% of the population. AI is NOT a better or equal player to Kobe. Just is not true.

Again, opinion, but looking at their careers, Iverson did more with less and Kobe faltered when in a similar situation

migya wrote:Quite a few of those players it is arguable whether they can be ranked ahead of Iverson alltime, a few definately are not ahead of him. Walton was great in college, great for a few years in the nba, that's it. I won't go through them all, but I'll say that Iverson may well be remembered and unappreciated for what he did. He'll likely be known more for his independent attitude than anything else and that is wrong

If you want to say that Iverson had a more productive career than Walton, I totally agree with you. Walton's career was completely derailed by his foot injury. But Iverson can't hold Walton's jock in terms of a basketball player. Walton was perhaps on the the most complete players to ever play the game. He could score inside or outside. Was an incredible defender and blocker. Amazing rebounder and was one of the best passing big men the game has seen.

So are you saying Iverson had the better NBA career or that Iverson was a better player than Walton?[/quote]

Both. Iverson will be underappreciated, as I said before, but the proof is all there that he was a special player and among the best alltime

Gotta revive this thread because of all the news. It's really sad to see such a talented player have his career come to this, but let's face it... AI did this to himself.

After saying he wouldn't come back to Philly this season for personal reasons, it basically ended his career. His wife filed for divorce recently. ESPN reported that he has gambling and alcohol issues. It's crazy.

xbay wrote:Gotta revive this thread because of all the news. It's really sad to see such a talented player have his career come to this, but let's face it... AI did this to himself.

After saying he wouldn't come back to Philly this season for personal reasons, it basically ended his career. His wife filed for divorce recently. ESPN reported that he has gambling and alcohol issues. It's crazy.

By the looks of it, it's Iverson's fault, he wasn't serious and no team wants that

Iverson was one of my favorite players in the league because he gave you everything he had every night. With that said I don't have him as one of the Top 50 players of all-time. For the Kobe Iverson comparisions, to me they are the same types of players. The only difference between them is one is 6'6 and the other is 6'0. The NBA knows how to use a 6'6 scorer and never really knew what to do with Iverson.

JSU2004 wrote:Iverson was one of my favorite players in the league because he gave you everything he had every night. With that said I don't have him as one of the Top 50 players of all-time. For the Kobe Iverson comparisions, to me they are the same types of players. The only difference between them is one is 6'6 and the other is 6'0. The NBA knows how to use a 6'6 scorer and never really knew what to do with Iverson.

Or maybe because when Iverson was in his prime, leading his team to the NBA Finals, he was surrounded with guys like Eric Snow, Aaron McKie and Matt Gieger. Not exactly a championship recipe. I do think Iverson fell off and turned into a more volume shooter late in his career, but he always had passing ability ... just never a good big man to utilize it with. I'd have him somewhere in the top 50... between 30-40

Beast Mode wrote:

JSU2004 wrote:Iverson was one of my favorite players in the league because he gave you everything he had every night. With that said I don't have him as one of the Top 50 players of all-time. For the Kobe Iverson comparisions, to me they are the same types of players. The only difference between them is one is 6'6 and the other is 6'0. The NBA knows how to use a 6'6 scorer and never really knew what to do with Iverson.

Or maybe because when Iverson was in his prime, leading his team to the NBA Finals, he was surrounded with guys like Eric Snow, Aaron McKie and Matt Gieger. Not exactly a championship recipe. I do think Iverson fell off and turned into a more volume shooter late in his career, but he always had passing ability ... just never a good big man to utilize it with. I'd have him somewhere in the top 50... between 30-40

I just want to see where you put him. Do you have him above
Jason Kidd?
John Stock?
Gary Payton?
Steve Nash?

After thinking about it. As a shooting guard, he might make my top 50.

JSU2004 wrote:

Beast Mode wrote:

JSU2004 wrote:Iverson was one of my favorite players in the league because he gave you everything he had every night. With that said I don't have him as one of the Top 50 players of all-time. For the Kobe Iverson comparisions, to me they are the same types of players. The only difference between them is one is 6'6 and the other is 6'0. The NBA knows how to use a 6'6 scorer and never really knew what to do with Iverson.

Or maybe because when Iverson was in his prime, leading his team to the NBA Finals, he was surrounded with guys like Eric Snow, Aaron McKie and Matt Gieger. Not exactly a championship recipe. I do think Iverson fell off and turned into a more volume shooter late in his career, but he always had passing ability ... just never a good big man to utilize it with. I'd have him somewhere in the top 50... between 30-40

I just want to see where you put him. Do you have him above
Jason Kidd?
John Stock?
Gary Payton?
Steve Nash?

After thinking about it. As a shooting guard, he might make my top 50.

Nash has been great for what, six years or so. For most of his career he was good, but not great and only when he arrived in Phoenix did he become a superstar. Iverson was a great player right away and for at least ten years, dropping off the last three or so, more for situation than anything else.

Do what Beast said, Iverson's 76ers teams were awful and he never had another star next to him until he got to Denver with Carmelo and even then, the rest of that team didn't step up like they are now.

For what he did, Iverson is unique, one of a kind. No player his size had the ability, especially offensively, that he did

Above: Jason Kidd, Steve Nash

Below: John Stockton, Gary Payton