HiddenCounter wrote:

First off,
would you say the united states current health care system is good?

I am going to speak from experience. My uncle who lives in Canada needed a heart transplant. Well he was put on the waiting list for about two years. Wooh! Bums who didn't work a day in their life got medicine before him and he ended up having his life endangered.



Common Sense Reasons
We'd need more Doctors, so the quality of Doctors and Medicine would go down.


And remember when Canada had to transfer a bunch of their patients to America to handle it for them.


They couldn't handle the surplus!


I would write more but I got to go.

You have a point in terms of the logistics of universal healthcare. However, I don't believe health coverage should be a sign of status either. Healthcare to me is a right not as much as a privelege. Iindividually we all need to do more to prevent what is preventable. That would ease a lot of the problems, but we don't. Just because someone is a "bum" , it doesn't make them less valuable as human beings. Trust me, i've seen that side of it and the fact of the matter is if people are sick they are sick, and the poorest people have no options but to jam up emergency room with non emergencies. I'm not a politics kind of person, i just go on my experience. I'm sure if you have coverage you feel the system is not too bad, but when you don't have anything, the system as it currently stands is fucked. I've been on both sides.

RobDIKUM wrote:

HiddenCounter wrote:

First off,
would you say the united states current health care system is good?

I am going to speak from experience. My uncle who lives in Canada needed a heart transplant. Well he was put on the waiting list for about two years. Wooh! Bums who didn't work a day in their life got medicine before him and he ended up having his life endangered.



Common Sense Reasons
We'd need more Doctors, so the quality of Doctors and Medicine would go down.


And remember when Canada had to transfer a bunch of their patients to America to handle it for them.


They couldn't handle the surplus!


I would write more but I got to go.

You have a point in terms of the logistics of universal healthcare. However, I don't believe health coverage should be a sign of status either. Healthcare to me is a right not as much as a privelege. Iindividually we all need to do more to prevent what is preventable. That would ease a lot of the problems, but we don't. Just because someone is a "bum" , it doesn't make them less valuable as human beings. Trust me, i've seen that side of it and the fact of the matter is if people are sick they are sick, and the poorest people have no options but to jam up emergency room with non emergencies. I'm not a politics kind of person, i just go on my experience. I'm sure if you have coverage you feel the system is not too bad, but when you don't have anything, the system as it currently stands is fucked. I've been on both sides.

And that's why you have to look at a mixed system.

Look, we have a universal health care system here in Spain, and it's a mess. To the point that, as HiddenCounter says, having to wait years for a surgery or even as much as 8 months to be able to see an specialist.

Also, emergency rooms are so saturated that they can't do much for most people who go there and just try to get by, which leads to LOTS of mistakes that people end up paying.

Not to mention how much it costs, and that's also a BIG problem because, financially, it's a big tax burden for citizens (while it comes for free for people who are not registered as citizens).

So the system is great because it covers almost anything you need... but it doesn't work. That's why you have to work towards reaching a middle point. You just can't cover everything in a universal system, because it can't work effectively. And, at the same time, you can't rely exclusively on private health care systems.

The health care debate is as equivalent to the abortion debate. It goes on and on, the answer to a question leads to another question. Too many holes in universal health care to work.

For me, I believe every one should receive health care. But at the same time, I believe people who work their asses off every day should get it before people who sit on their ass every day and do nothing. The thing is with my belief is that it contradicts itself too much. This is why, even though I'm liberal, I disagree with Obama's universal health care plan. Too many problems, and it just doesn't work. And then of course, the medical field has a "Now Hiring" sign on its forehead because there aren't many nurses and doctors out there at the moment.

This is why I can't believe it when people go... "Let's just move to Canada, at least their health care is free." The problem with that statement is that they know little to nothing about how the system works.

TMC wrote:

RobDIKUM wrote:

HiddenCounter wrote:

First off,
would you say the united states current health care system is good?

I am going to speak from experience. My uncle who lives in Canada needed a heart transplant. Well he was put on the waiting list for about two years. Wooh! Bums who didn't work a day in their life got medicine before him and he ended up having his life endangered.



Common Sense Reasons
We'd need more Doctors, so the quality of Doctors and Medicine would go down.


And remember when Canada had to transfer a bunch of their patients to America to handle it for them.


They couldn't handle the surplus!


I would write more but I got to go.

You have a point in terms of the logistics of universal healthcare. However, I don't believe health coverage should be a sign of status either. Healthcare to me is a right not as much as a privelege. Iindividually we all need to do more to prevent what is preventable. That would ease a lot of the problems, but we don't. Just because someone is a "bum" , it doesn't make them less valuable as human beings. Trust me, i've seen that side of it and the fact of the matter is if people are sick they are sick, and the poorest people have no options but to jam up emergency room with non emergencies. I'm not a politics kind of person, i just go on my experience. I'm sure if you have coverage you feel the system is not too bad, but when you don't have anything, the system as it currently stands is fucked. I've been on both sides.

And that's why you have to look at a mixed system.

Look, we have a universal health care system here in Spain, and it's a mess. To the point that, as HiddenCounter says, having to wait years for a surgery or even as much as 8 months to be able to see an specialist.

Also, emergency rooms are so saturated that they can't do much for most people who go there and just try to get by, which leads to LOTS of mistakes that people end up paying.

Not to mention how much it costs, and that's also a BIG problem because, financially, it's a big tax burden for citizens (while it comes for free for people who are not registered as citizens).

So the system is great because it covers almost anything you need... but it doesn't work. That's why you have to work towards reaching a middle point. You just can't cover everything in a universal system, because it can't work effectively. And, at the same time, you can't rely exclusively on private health care systems.

Where is this middle point? It my effect if I agree with you or not

HiddenCounter wrote:Where is this middle point? It my effect if I agree with you or not

It depends on each one. To me, it's on drawing the line regarding what the "free" part of the system covers. You just cannot cover everything when only a part of the population pays for it. So reduce the taxes and reduce the scope of the system covers to a minimum health care. Also (and this is something that's currently a subject for debate around here), make people pay for visist that are not mandatory, like going to the emergency room for a cold (happens a lot) and behavior like that.

Of course, real emergencies should be dealt with exactly the same way in any case.


I don't know, it ain't easy to find a solution that works for everybody, but it's gonna be through some middle point like these.

We have a mixed system now, albeit mostly private; but government and philanthropic sectors do exist for those who can’t afford healthcare. The problem is that the government run is insufficient and badly mismanaged. What a surprise.

Belgium, who has universal healthcare, has income tax of around 50%. Our sister company don’t even give out raises anymore, just perks, because raises are so worthless when taxed at 50%. As TMC and others have said it’s common in these countries to wait for procedures for months even years just to get a procedure done while you rot at home. That’s why Canadians come to the US and even beginning to practice private healthcare again.

Bottom line: 1.) we will have to pay for it with much higher taxes, no doubt; 2.) health care will be severely rationed and people will have to wait forever for treatment and; 3.) doctors will have no incentive to go into the field, causing more shortage to an already short-staffed system, which will be more flooded—and with greatly diminished expertise and service.

Want to see it in action, just look at the VA hospital system and see what a mess and a shame that is for our veterans. Hell, the government can’t even manage the cash for clunkers program going on now.

Obama needs to get a clue—a big clue. Beef up and overhaul government healthcare and leave the private sector the way it is.

Here are the pros and cons, which are pretty dead on.

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm

one thing you guys are forgetting, we spend the money regardless. Having a public option makes the money we blow on health care way more efficient. one way or another we pay for it. Preventing people from getting sick with regular check ups is more cost effective then waiting till these people get sick, (potentially infect others, if it is contagious), eventually go to a emergence room, and sit in the hospital for weeks getting treated.

Every healthcare system has it's weaknesses, but the cases in which people die because they can't recieve health care coverage in canada, UK, Germany, etc. are proportionally way less then the cases in which people die because they can't receive health care coverage here.

And while I understand your "lazy american's don't deserve it" argument, you should say that for everything else that the gov't provides and see how that argument stands up. If there's a fire let poor people burn to death, who cares? In my mind, If free education is a fundamental right to every citizen, I don't see how anyone could argue that healthcare isn't (it already kinda is with medicare and medicaid).

speaking of education, there's more evidence that public and private can coexist somewhat peacefully. If you have a ton of money and you don't like the way the gov't runs the edu sys, take your kids to a private school.

Also it's not like the private health care companies are on the brink of collapse right now, they've been makin' gobs of money for decades by denying coverage to people who actually get sick and raising their premiums at alarming rates. They will lose a ton of money sure, but I think the wealthiest nation on the earth has more than enough rich people to keep them afloat for many years to come.

here's a great clip on the exact same argument.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8OQFQZC-8&feature=channel_page[/youtube]
btw sorry if yall are tired of TYT clips. I really like their show, sorry if it's annoying.

Sometimes people that call into shows either aren't the brightest, or are nervous, or the host cuts them off before they can finish their point(as this one did). I don't think this guy was going to have a comeback anyway, but still - I'd really like to hear a well thought-out conservative response to this (seriously).

I just wanted to take a quick timeout real quick and say rest in peace to the Lion of the Senate, Ted Kennedy. Saw part of his burial yesterday, except when they buried him since it got dark and they had no lights.

would you want a private corporation taking care of police duities??
let's have Blackwater patrol our cities.... you see my point here? we're talking about health care.

why have private profit making corporations running health care? it's a recipe for disaster.

"Capitalism encourages innovation" innovation for a few, but how many others are screwed by this "innovation"? Leonardo Da Vinci was one of the most prolific innovators the world has ever known. Did capitalism inspire his creations? I rest my case...

Heres my Health-care plan.

1 - Universal, critical, terminal and emergency health care for every single person............whether they be tax payer, non-tax payer or even non-resident (incorporating some kind of governmental cost re-claim system for those who are non-residents........ie: they would claim the costs back of foreign citizens healthcare, either from insurance or direct from the country itself)

Result = Every person who needs urgent medical care received its, no exclusions.

This will elimate those who abuse social/free health care systems for things like sex changes and having babies born (when they actually reside in another country, which is what happens here in England)

Although, obviously, having a baby would be universally covered for everyone, tax payer or not, I just mean those who travel to other countries just to have children.

2 - Universal full health care for all tax paying citizens of that country.

Result = The average Joe knows he is contributing (tax wise) the same amount as everyone else who is involved in his/her health care system.

Moreover, with the non-tax payer exclusion for non-critical/terminal health care, the people in this bracket know that they are getting a fair treatment and arent being bumped or ignore in favour of someone, who in there eyes, doesnt deserve it.

3 - Those who choose to stay in private health care and have health insurance, are given tax relief.............so if they can actually afford to, they can receive the care they desire and need, and they dont feel disgruntled by having to pay for all the "free loaders"

Result = All the people who choose private health care still, are taken out of the equation of "waiting times" and thus it reduces the waiting periods for those who cant afford/dont choose to have insurance.

4 - De-Privatise the pharmacutical industry...............just because its f*cking evil and wrong to force people to pay the extortionate money they have to for medication.

Seriously, I mean here..............you need medication, whatever it is, you get your presciption, you go to a pharmacy, you pay them about $12, you get WHATEVER it is............if its non-prescription based, I go to a supermarket and buy a pack of full strength Asprin or Ibuprofen for about $2.

Result = Well, you know the result.
.
.
.
.
Theres more..............but Ill let those sink and digest for a little bit.

bigstrads wrote:4 - De-Privatise the pharmacutical industry...............

That alone would do more to solve most health related issues in the world than any other measure.

bigstrads wrote:Heres my Health-care plan.

1 - Universal, critical, terminal and emergency health care for every single person............whether they be tax payer, non-tax payer or even non-resident (incorporating some kind of governmental cost re-claim system for those who are non-residents........ie: they would claim the costs back of foreign citizens healthcare, either from insurance or direct from the country itself)

Result = Every person who needs urgent medical care received its, no exclusions.

This will elimate those who abuse social/free health care systems for things like sex changes and having babies born (when they actually reside in another country, which is what happens here in England)

Although, obviously, having a baby would be universally covered for everyone, tax payer or not, I just mean those who travel to other countries just to have children.

2 - Universal full health care for all tax paying citizens of that country.

Result = The average Joe knows he is contributing (tax wise) the same amount as everyone else who is involved in his/her health care system.

Moreover, with the non-tax payer exclusion for non-critical/terminal health care, the people in this bracket know that they are getting a fair treatment and arent being bumped or ignore in favour of someone, who in there eyes, doesnt deserve it.

3 - Those who choose to stay in private health care and have health insurance, are given tax relief.............so if they can actually afford to, they can receive the care they desire and need, and they dont feel disgruntled by having to pay for all the "free loaders"

Result = All the people who choose private health care still, are taken out of the equation of "waiting times" and thus it reduces the waiting periods for those who cant afford/dont choose to have insurance.

4 - De-Privatise the pharmacutical industry...............just because its f*cking evil and wrong to force people to pay the extortionate money they have to for medication.

Seriously, I mean here..............you need medication, whatever it is, you get your presciption, you go to a pharmacy, you pay them about $12, you get WHATEVER it is............if its non-prescription based, I go to a supermarket and buy a pack of full strength Asprin or Ibuprofen for about $2.

Result = Well, you know the result.
.
.
.
.
Theres more..............but Ill let those sink and digest for a little bit.

very unrealistic goal BIGS>>> But i like how you think, BIG

At the end of the day someone's gotta pick up the tab.
& i doubt the people earning the money thru sales of expensive pharmaceuticals will want to re-invest there money back into national governments free handouts for medical care.

Me personally... i'd rather donate a couple of bucks to world vision and feed a sick kid in africa or a few dollars donation to greenpeace and save the forests then pick up someone else medical costs

(people get sick n die... it's ironic when the super rich can afford the best medical attention but yet they can't cure a screen legend like patrick swayze cancer... your free health bigs is economically un-sound)

PawnOAKLANDGraffiti wrote:

bigstrads wrote:Heres my Health-care plan.

1 - Universal, critical, terminal and emergency health care for every single person............whether they be tax payer, non-tax payer or even non-resident (incorporating some kind of governmental cost re-claim system for those who are non-residents........ie: they would claim the costs back of foreign citizens healthcare, either from insurance or direct from the country itself)

Result = Every person who needs urgent medical care received its, no exclusions.

This will elimate those who abuse social/free health care systems for things like sex changes and having babies born (when they actually reside in another country, which is what happens here in England)

Although, obviously, having a baby would be universally covered for everyone, tax payer or not, I just mean those who travel to other countries just to have children.

2 - Universal full health care for all tax paying citizens of that country.

Result = The average Joe knows he is contributing (tax wise) the same amount as everyone else who is involved in his/her health care system.

Moreover, with the non-tax payer exclusion for non-critical/terminal health care, the people in this bracket know that they are getting a fair treatment and arent being bumped or ignore in favour of someone, who in there eyes, doesnt deserve it.

3 - Those who choose to stay in private health care and have health insurance, are given tax relief.............so if they can actually afford to, they can receive the care they desire and need, and they dont feel disgruntled by having to pay for all the "free loaders"

Result = All the people who choose private health care still, are taken out of the equation of "waiting times" and thus it reduces the waiting periods for those who cant afford/dont choose to have insurance.

4 - De-Privatise the pharmacutical industry...............just because its f*cking evil and wrong to force people to pay the extortionate money they have to for medication.

Seriously, I mean here..............you need medication, whatever it is, you get your presciption, you go to a pharmacy, you pay them about $12, you get WHATEVER it is............if its non-prescription based, I go to a supermarket and buy a pack of full strength Asprin or Ibuprofen for about $2.

Result = Well, you know the result.
.
.
.
.
Theres more..............but Ill let those sink and digest for a little bit.

very unrealistic goal BIGS>>> But i like how you think, BIG

At the end of the day someone's gotta pick up the tab.
& i doubt the people earning the money thru sales of expensive pharmaceuticals will want to re-invest there money back into national governments free handouts for medical care.

Me personally... i'd rather donate a couple of bucks to world vision and feed a sick kid in africa or a few dollars donation to greenpeace and save the forests then pick up someone else medical costs

(people get sick n die... it's ironic when the super rich can afford the best medical attention but yet they can't cure a screen legend like patrick swayze cancer... your free health bigs is economically un-sound)

Well, funnily enough...............the "ideas" I listed up there are essentially just modified versions of the current healthcare system that England has.

The modifications being the removal of the things that MAKE it un-sound and not very economically viable...............ie: the way it was 20/25 years ago.

So it would work, it does work, it has worked.............it just needs to return to that way and then ridiculous countires like America need to take notice of how others do things and realise that it is possible.

We already have universal health care for everyone, we have the option to choose private health care (without the tax breaks though) and we have a heavily subsidised pharmacutical industry...............and it works just fine and doesnt cost alot to the tax payer, even though it is stretched and at breaking point because of all the people abusing it.................so remove those people and it would great and incredibly economically sound.

So, NOT a pipe dream..............given that it already exists and has worked, just need to iron out the piss takers and apply it to other countries.

But of course, the US could never accept such a logical and social system...............because A: It would be too good for the people and not the corporations and B: All those pathetic idiots who insanely talk about communism and socialism would lobby against it.

PawnOAKLANDGraffiti wrote:

bigstrads wrote:Heres my Health-care plan.

1 - Universal, critical, terminal and emergency health care for every single person............whether they be tax payer, non-tax payer or even non-resident (incorporating some kind of governmental cost re-claim system for those who are non-residents........ie: they would claim the costs back of foreign citizens healthcare, either from insurance or direct from the country itself)

Result = Every person who needs urgent medical care received its, no exclusions.

This will elimate those who abuse social/free health care systems for things like sex changes and having babies born (when they actually reside in another country, which is what happens here in England)

Although, obviously, having a baby would be universally covered for everyone, tax payer or not, I just mean those who travel to other countries just to have children.

2 - Universal full health care for all tax paying citizens of that country.

Result = The average Joe knows he is contributing (tax wise) the same amount as everyone else who is involved in his/her health care system.

Moreover, with the non-tax payer exclusion for non-critical/terminal health care, the people in this bracket know that they are getting a fair treatment and arent being bumped or ignore in favour of someone, who in there eyes, doesnt deserve it.

3 - Those who choose to stay in private health care and have health insurance, are given tax relief.............so if they can actually afford to, they can receive the care they desire and need, and they dont feel disgruntled by having to pay for all the "free loaders"

Result = All the people who choose private health care still, are taken out of the equation of "waiting times" and thus it reduces the waiting periods for those who cant afford/dont choose to have insurance.

4 - De-Privatise the pharmacutical industry...............just because its f*cking evil and wrong to force people to pay the extortionate money they have to for medication.

Seriously, I mean here..............you need medication, whatever it is, you get your presciption, you go to a pharmacy, you pay them about $12, you get WHATEVER it is............if its non-prescription based, I go to a supermarket and buy a pack of full strength Asprin or Ibuprofen for about $2.

Result = Well, you know the result.
.
.
.
.
Theres more..............but Ill let those sink and digest for a little bit.

very unrealistic goal BIGS>>> But i like how you think, BIG

At the end of the day someone's gotta pick up the tab.
& i doubt the people earning the money thru sales of expensive pharmaceuticals will want to re-invest there money back into national governments free handouts for medical care.

Me personally... i'd rather donate a couple of bucks to world vision and feed a sick kid in africa or a few dollars donation to greenpeace and save the forests then pick up someone else medical costs

Then you are totally blind and actually aiding those looking to get rid of you and your family. How things are now and even getting worse, is the opposite to what is needed