The Top 10 Players (For a Team Looking To Win)

Talk about any other sports here.

Moderators: Mr. Crackerz, JREED, Guybrush, hobbes

User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13528
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:15 am
The Top 10 Players (For a Team Looking To Win)

The way I see it, basketball is about one thing: winning. The reason many of my opinions on this board are so controversial and I get into so many scraps with people is because I don’t usually look at single stats as a means to value a player: I try to see who can help a team win. Therefore, I often get into online scuffles defending a player like Derek Fisher (because he helps a team win, but doesn’t have very attractive stats in a few categories). This list is simply my opinion of who I would want on my team if I was looking to win a championship in the 2005-2006 season. Hopefully, it will justify some of my often misunderstood opinions on here.

************************************************************************

(1.) Shaquille O'Neal – Miami Heat

Lets be honest, nobody effects a game (or ever has) like Shaq does when he's in. The entire game plan for both squads changes purely because Shaq is on the floor. O’Neal has the ability to change any team in the league into (not simply a playoff contender, but) a championship contender. That’s power you couldn’t buy not even if you made a deal with the Devil. He’s also one of the few big men who makes his teammates better (is it any coincidence that every team Shaq has played on has developed a superstar guard to compliment him?). Age makes injury a higher risk, but even with that on the table, if the league only existed for one year and only one team could win the championship, I guarantee Shaquille O’Neal would be the first person picked in a fantasy draft. He’s still the best.

(2) Steve Nash – Phoenix Suns

I don’t think I’ve seen a team get a quicker jump start from a point-guard free agent than the Suns last season with Steve Nash. In an age where 8 assists a game can lead the league, Steve Nash’s 14 or 15 apg averages really emphasize his team-ball style. He’s turning players like Raja Bell, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson into league-recognized scoring threats. Steve Nash, himself, may not get 20 points a game, but his methods guarantee that he’ll help a team to an extra 30 points simply by passing the ball (whereas other point guards might achieve half of that). His 10 or 15 points a game don’t seem so small when amplified by the fact that he can change a 7 or 8 ppg, one-dimensional guard into a 20 ppg scorer. Nash makes his teammates far better than they really are; a quick key to win basketball games. Nash gets the #2 spot because this list is about winning… and, aside from Big Diesel, no player in the league contributes to his team’s success more so than Nash.

(3) Kobe Bryant – Los Angeles Lakers

His current record with the Lakers doesn’t show it, but Kobe Bryant is an absolute winner. He can score at will, create on the break, rebound better than most guards, defend at a top level, shoot from the outside, take opponents off the dribble, get bumped and still score, fly with the birds, run the floor easily with his young legs, and take down opposing teams with ice cold shooting in the clutch. He is the most complete ball-player in the game that’s proven he can win in situations when it counts. Name another player who’s jammed on Ben Wallace, crossed-up Michael Jordan’s All-NBA 1st team defense, was valued higher than Shaq on his team, swatted Scottie Pippen’s fade-away jumper, shut down John Stockton’s passing game in the playoffs, and is still the face of the league (despite being involved in a year long trial where he was accused of rape and, ultimately, proven to have cheated on his wife). He’s that damn good. Opposing teams can only hope he shoots himself in the foot, because there aren’t many things teams can do to stop him other than kryptonite or a chop block.

(4) Baron Davis – Golden State Warriors

On half the nights, Steve Nash is the NBA’s best point guard. On the other half, it’s Baron Davis. He’s built like a tank, flies like he’s got wings, and runs like there’s a rocket on his back. Few guards in the league are as athletically gifted as Davis (and fewer are as talented). When Davis isn’t slamming the ball down a 7-footer’s throat, he’s crossing over a star defender. His creativity in regards to passing is only topped by Nash and Jason Kidd (which isn’t bad company to be in). Davis’ rare ability to improve his teammates is another thing that jets his value into the Top 5. Upon his arrival, Mickael Pietrus, Jason Richardson, Mike Dunleavy, and Derek Fisher (to name a few) all improved greatly on Golden State’s roster. Davis’ offensive arsenal also includes a post game (rare for point guards), which few opponents can guard due to his strength. There’s no point guard in the league who can break more faces when flying to the rim and there’s not many more who can deliver in the clutch like Davis. If I was looking for championship gold, I’d start with a player like Baron Davis who can improve his squad.

(5) Kevin Garnett – Minnesota Timberwolves

Its true Garnett has never won the big one. And he also doesn’t really improve his teammates. Aside from that, Garnett is an ace in every other category. His passing game for a 7-footer is enviable, he has proven he has the foot work to guard 1’s or 2’s on a switch out on the perimeter, his rebounding is probably better than anybody in the league, he can block shots with the best of them, and no player his size can work the post like Garnett. When you look past the 7-foot height that he sports, you realize that Garnett is a bean pole who can be pushed and shoved at will. However, his Kevin-McHale-level post game with the quickness of Hakeem keeps him dangerously comfortable inside. But, when opponents simply throw the lighter Garnett into the midrange, he has no problem knocking down the 15 footer all game long. If his play inspired others, he’d be at the #2 spot. But, regardless, he’s such a good player, that to rob him of the Top 5 would be a crime.

(6) Tim Duncan – San Antonio Spurs

Duncan was brought into the league aside David Robinson (a future hall-of-fame center) and immediately established themselves as the new Twin Towers. After Robinson’s departure from the game, good management has been able to keep Duncan with a stacked lineup his entire career (resulting in many championship banners hanging in the AlamoDome). Tim Duncan is the leader of the Spurs (and probably the 2nd best player at his position in the league), but any higher than 6th place on a list like this would be a crime. He (along with KG) is the main player that I struggle with when arguing my points with other fans. Duncan’s experience in the league can best be described as regal. He entered alongside a hall-of-fame worthy center and has been pampered to ever since, being placed in a near-perfect lineup, which inflates his value to fans. In my opinion, Duncan is over-rated when it comes to winning championships (or even games, for that matter). If he was put in Garnett’s position, I don’t think Duncan would have ever won a championship. However, if you’re an opponent of his, then under-estimating him would be a mistake. Duncan can play the dainty game or the power game as a center, with his range only limited at the 3-point line. He rebounds well, blocks shots at a high level, and can score from many different places with many different post-moves. Tim Duncan grabs the #6 spot from me, but I have a feeling that he’d be more in the Elton Brand-range if he was never put on such an ideal team.

(6) LeBron James – Cleveland Cavilers

James is more of a long-term bet (straight out of high school) as a great singles player for the Cav’s. His only flaw is that he has failed to win a ring thus far… but he will eventually, make no mistake. Also, his defense (while statistically sound) is a bit aggressive and can result in either a breakaway steal or a basket for the opposition. His scoring is undeniably dangerous from behind the backboard all the way out to the half court line. He can also rebound (reluctantly, for some reason), block a shot every week or so, and pass the ball better every game. To place James above any of the higher places is wrong, however, because he hasn’t peaked yet. In time, he’ll probably outgrow nearly everybody on this list… but The List is about who can help their team win in the 05’-06’ season, and James isn’t quite there yet. As a long term bet, nobody has a bigger upside, but his current value is still growing.

(7) Ron Artest – Indiana Pacers

Hate if you must and inevitably doubt his motives (or mind frame), but you can’t deny the skills of Ron Artest and his ability to help his team win! Every coach in the world will tell you defense wins games and Artest proves this theory as law. He is a former Defensive Player of the Year who often grabs over two steals a game (not by risky lane jumps that can result in transition buckets for the opposition, but by good, old fashion, lock-down, man-to-man defense!). This list is about winning and Artest does plenty of that: Indy’s road trip over Turkey Day resulted in a 22-point ass-beating on Cleveland; solely due to Artest locking down LeBron and forcing King James to go 6 for 20, while committing 6 turnovers. The next day, Artest sat out and Indiana lost to the Atlanta Hawks (at home). That’s a huge gap that Artest fills for the Pacers. Unlike many defensive specialists (Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Dikembe Mutombo), Artest comes complete with an inside/outside offensive package that helps him easily manage 20 points, after playing hard-nosed, exhausting defense all game long. Play him close? He’ll shake you and slam. Give him room? His midrange is automatic. Double him up? He’ll find the open man. And, when all else fails, Mr. Artest has no problem knocking down the trey… all game long.

(8) Ray Allen – Seattle SuperSonics

It’s true, one could describe Ray as one-dimensional. And it’s also true that I, personally, can’t stand a player who’s a one-trick pony. But there’s something about being the purest shooter in the league that puts you on any list of current greats. As a 6’5” shooting guard who lives at least 15 feet away from the hole, shooting over 40% your entire career without one shaky-season is pretty damn impressive. Allen is everything to Seattle. His 4 or 5 assists a game are pretty average (like his 4 or 5 boards a night) and his defense is solid enough (over a steal per game for the past 11 seasons). But there’s something about his raw, beautiful stroke that can’t be placed outside the Top 10. If having pivot moves to create your own shot, driving skills to keep the defense honest, a fierce outside touch that can stay hot for months on end, an automatic single point every step at the stripe, tremor-inspiring pressure situations that go down like water, and hops on top of that makes you one-dimensional, then I guess I’ve finally found someone who proves my attitude wrong. You know what they say in Seattle: let it rain!

(9) Amare Stoudamire – Phoenix Suns

Here’s hoping. As a fan who’s watched Amare, I’m filled with hope for this man. Remembering his past couple of seasons (before the microsurgery, which may threaten Amare’s game as a whole), all I can say are a few short memories. His jams were teeth shattering, his boards out of this world, his swats could blur vision, and his athleticism was unmatched by anybody his size. Amare Stoudamire was the total package; an inside force who could run the floor like a 6’10” guard (and sky higher than most of them). Many called him the TRUE MVP of the Suns last season, over league-crowned winner Steve Nash. Many said he’d be the best player in the entire NBA someday. Even more said he’d be the Suns franchise player for the next 15 years. So, as a Golden State Warriors fan, here’s hoping this guy stays on the sidelines as long as we can hope for.

(10) Dirk Nowitski – Dallas Mavericks

It’s true; I hate Dirk Nowitski. I speak frequently about the NBA’s Metrosexuals (aka, the big man who wishes he was small). Dirk embodies everything I dislike in a tall euro player who doesn’t use his 7-foot body the way a big man should. And I tried pushing him off the list (clearly, a bias that I’m now admitting to). I ran him past Ray Allen… and even on the wrong side of the injured Amare… and I seemed so close to finally being rid of the Texas Cupcake until, finally, I just couldn’t deny the skills any longer. Dirk Nowitski is a big time scorer who can put up big time numbers in rebounding, assists, or 3-point percentage. His free throws are great for a big man, his post game is improving every season, and his inside/outside offensive game seems damn-near complete. It’s true, Dirk’s defensive game could use a facelift (and the fact that he can’t improve his teammates and has never won the big one also stand out). But Dirk Nowitski is an offensive juggernaut who is too tough to contain by most team’s standards. I can make a case for why I believe Tim Duncan should rightfully remain on the 6-spot… but I can’t logically rob Dirk of the Top 10. Nowitski (even though he’s on the goddamn Mavericks) is a top notch player. There, I said it, now never bring this up again.

************************************************************************

Future Top 10’s:

Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Sebastian Telfair, Dwane Wade, and Jason Richardson.

Over-rated Players Who People THINK Should Make Top 10:

Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Manu Ginobli, Chauncey Billips, Gilbert Arenas, and probably AK-47 (migya, I know you got a soft spot for the Jazz).
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:29 am
Great article. I really like it. Even if I don't agree with it. :wink:

#32 wrote:
(3) Kobe Bryant – Los Angeles Lakers

His current record with the Lakers doesn’t show it, but Kobe Bryant is an absolute winner. He can score at will, create on the break, rebound better than most guards, defend at a top level, shoot from the outside, take opponents off the dribble, get bumped and still score, fly with the birds, run the floor easily with his young legs, and take down opposing teams with ice cold shooting in the clutch. He is the most complete ball-player in the game that’s proven he can win in situations when it counts. Name another player who’s jammed on Ben Wallace, crossed-up Michael Jordan’s All-NBA 1st team defense, was valued higher than Shaq on his team, swatted Scottie Pippen’s fade-away jumper, shut down John Stockton’s passing game in the playoffs, and is still the face of the league (despite being involved in a year long trial where he was accused of rape and, ultimately, proven to have cheated on his wife). He’s that damn good. Opposing teams can only hope he shoots himself in the foot, because there aren’t many things teams can do to stop him other than kryptonite or a chop block.


::lol:

And this will be his second season without playoffs, that means, he's been out of them since Shaq left. A real winner...

More thoughts:

Why is Ray Allen on that list?. That list is about players that make you win... Ray can't even get to the playoffs by himself... Why's he better than, say, Iverson?, who, at least, has the Sixers in the playoffs each season.

On the other side, why isn't Ben Wallace in the list?. He's not a top 10 player in terms of talent (not even close), but certainly is when talking about winners... Ditto with AI.

btw, Chauncey Billups is really underrated. The guy still hasn't been an all-star, but he already has a ring, a finals MVP and is having the best season of any pg in the league.

Seems like that list of yours is about your favorite top 10 players, not a top 10 of winners. I can respect it like that. But several of those are not exactly winners...


Just my two cents...
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13528
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:57 pm
I knew putting Ray Allen on the list was going to get a bunch of comments here. Honestly, Allen is extremely under-rated in terms of winning. You say he couldn't get Seattle into the playoffs, but niether could Garnett last year, TMC, and I doubt you'd rethink his credibility.

Funny your example is Allen Iverson when mentioning players snubbed... he was actually the name I wrote before backspacing to give Dirk Nowistki a spot on the list. If there were a Top 11 players, he'd be in there, but I just don't believe that Iverson helps his TEAM win the way the others do. Sure, the Sixers can't win WITHOUT him, but that's because the Sixers have been garbage the past 10 years (save for the last 2, where they've begun to seem respectable all around). He's a great player, but I don't think he can help his team win better than those 10 players.

Ben Wallace isn't included because he has NO offensive package, aside from a dunk. I placed Artest on the list and mentioned that the only reason a defensive specialist can be included would be if his offensive game was above average as well. Every player on the list has more than just a couple weapons (yes, even Allen). Wallace's contributions stop after blocks and rebounds, despite how good he is at both (and rare nights were he scores or grabs steals).

If this was a list of my FAVORITE players, please rest assured that Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitski wouldn't be on it. This is a list of the best players for a team looking to take the ring in 2005-'06. If I hurt your feelings by not putting your favorite players on the list, I apologize, but I'd prefer taking a bunch of crap from board members about this or that than ultimately compromising my opinion to make it more user friendly. I believe these players are the best at furthering a team's progress towards the gold. It's all opinion, so you not agreeing with it doesn't bother me. I knew from the start that most (if not all) people would have a different list. Everyone's mind works differently.

TMC wrote:Seems like that list of yours is about your favorite top 10 players, not a top 10 of winners. I can respect it like that. But several of those are not exactly winners...


Just my two cents...

No, not winners. Bill Wennington is a winner. This list is of players that WILL HELP THEIR TEAMS WIN. They don't need any jewlery or frequent playoff visits to be constructive to their team's growth.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:03 am
Firstly, I'd like to just say that I respect the fact that everyone has an opinion (no matter how wayward it seems to another person). #32, some of your posts have been informative and some funny. I respect you and believe that you give a contribution on this forum that helps to get people talking to eachother which is always a good thing.

I however, do not agree with the below listings and do believe that you are being biased towards some players and against others.


#32 wrote:The Top 10 Players (For a Team Looking To Win)

(1.) Shaquille O'Neal – Miami Heat

Lets be honest, nobody effects a game (or ever has) like Shaq does when he's in. The entire game plan for both squads changes purely because Shaq is on the floor. O’Neal has the ability to change any team in the league into (not simply a playoff contender, but) a championship contender. That’s power you couldn’t buy not even if you made a deal with the Devil. He’s also one of the few big men who makes his teammates better (is it any coincidence that every team Shaq has played on has developed a superstar guard to compliment him?). Age makes injury a higher risk, but even with that on the table, if the league only existed for one year and only one team could win the championship, I guarantee Shaquille O’Neal would be the first person picked in a fantasy draft. He’s still the best.


Shaquille O'neal has had one of the greatest and most dominant careers ever! He does change the game but inthe last three years he has been far less than dominant. I still think Michael Jordan is the most dominant player ever and the greatest winner as he was the main reason his team won 6 times!

Right now, I don't think Shaq is #1 in the nba but I'd put him in the top 10.


#32 wrote:(2) Steve Nash – Phoenix Suns

I don’t think I’ve seen a team get a quicker jump start from a point-guard free agent than the Suns last season with Steve Nash. In an age where 8 assists a game can lead the league, Steve Nash’s 14 or 15 apg averages really emphasize his team-ball style. He’s turning players like Raja Bell, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson into league-recognized scoring threats. Steve Nash, himself, may not get 20 points a game, but his methods guarantee that he’ll help a team to an extra 30 points simply by passing the ball (whereas other point guards might achieve half of that). His 10 or 15 points a game don’t seem so small when amplified by the fact that he can change a 7 or 8 ppg, one-dimensional guard into a 20 ppg scorer. Nash makes his teammates far better than they really are; a quick key to win basketball games. Nash gets the #2 spot because this list is about winning… and, aside from Big Diesel, no player in the league contributes to his team’s success more so than Nash.


Nash has looked really valuable the last two seasons but I wouldn't put him this high. He is a top ten player due to his ability to make others around him better and make his team win but the Suns are a talented team - Marion is a top 15 player right now, Diaw does a few things, Barbosa is improving well and Kurt Thomas, Bell, JJackson and JJones are all forgotten players that have skills. ie. The Suns are not that bad and Nash is the spark that makes them go but is not that great, a top 10 player perhaps


#32 wrote:(3) Kobe Bryant – Los Angeles Lakers

His current record with the Lakers doesn’t show it, but Kobe Bryant is an absolute winner. He can score at will, create on the break, rebound better than most guards, defend at a top level, shoot from the outside, take opponents off the dribble, get bumped and still score, fly with the birds, run the floor easily with his young legs, and take down opposing teams with ice cold shooting in the clutch. He is the most complete ball-player in the game that’s proven he can win in situations when it counts. Name another player who’s jammed on Ben Wallace, crossed-up Michael Jordan’s All-NBA 1st team defense, was valued higher than Shaq on his team, swatted Scottie Pippen’s fade-away jumper, shut down John Stockton’s passing game in the playoffs, and is still the face of the league (despite being involved in a year long trial where he was accused of rape and, ultimately, proven to have cheated on his wife). He’s that damn good. Opposing teams can only hope he shoots himself in the foot, because there aren’t many things teams can do to stop him other than kryptonite or a chop block.


I just don't see the thing about Kobe Bryant..... why he is called a winner or the greatest by some! All hype it seems and nothing else! For sheer explosive talent and scoring ability, I group this guy with Iverson, TMac and LeBron (Pierce just outside but maybe as good and Gilbert now looking like it also). Bryant has not won a thing without Shaq and is looking like a ball hog and not much else this season! I still put him in the top 10 but not the top 5 and definatley not in the top 10 winners!!!!


#32 wrote:(4) Baron Davis – Golden State Warriors

On half the nights, Steve Nash is the NBA’s best point guard. On the other half, it’s Baron Davis. He’s built like a tank, flies like he’s got wings, and runs like there’s a rocket on his back. Few guards in the league are as athletically gifted as Davis (and fewer are as talented). When Davis isn’t slamming the ball down a 7-footer’s throat, he’s crossing over a star defender. His creativity in regards to passing is only topped by Nash and Jason Kidd (which isn’t bad company to be in). Davis’ rare ability to improve his teammates is another thing that jets his value into the Top 5. Upon his arrival, Mickael Pietrus, Jason Richardson, Mike Dunleavy, and Derek Fisher (to name a few) all improved greatly on Golden State’s roster. Davis’ offensive arsenal also includes a post game (rare for point guards), which few opponents can guard due to his strength. There’s no point guard in the league who can break more faces when flying to the rim and there’s not many more who can deliver in the clutch like Davis. If I was looking for championship gold, I’d start with a player like Baron Davis who can improve his squad.


Tough to say great things about Baron as a winner and talent so far, very good yes but great, tough. His days in the Hornets never came close to a championship and that was in the weak East. He is looking much better in the Warriors, especially as a winner. He has very good skill but not in the same level as TMac, Iverson, Pierce and Kobe but he looks like he could be capable but just hasn't. I would put him in the top 15 but not the top 10


#32 wrote:(5) Kevin Garnett – Minnesota Timberwolves

Its true Garnett has never won the big one. And he also doesn’t really improve his teammates. Aside from that, Garnett is an ace in every other category. His passing game for a 7-footer is enviable, he has proven he has the foot work to guard 1’s or 2’s on a switch out on the perimeter, his rebounding is probably better than anybody in the league, he can block shots with the best of them, and no player his size can work the post like Garnett. When you look past the 7-foot height that he sports, you realize that Garnett is a bean pole who can be pushed and shoved at will. However, his Kevin-McHale-level post game with the quickness of Hakeem keeps him dangerously comfortable inside. But, when opponents simply throw the lighter Garnett into the midrange, he has no problem knocking down the 15 footer all game long. If his play inspired others, he’d be at the #2 spot. But, regardless, he’s such a good player, that to rob him of the Top 5 would be a crime.


You don't like him much #32, I know but I look at what this man has done! He has never had great teammates - Wally can score and not much else and he doesn't always score well! Never had a center worth anything or a PG that makes teammates better either or that is consistent. In all, KG has done very well with a team that was just never built well around him! He does it all and consistently and on a team with just a couple of very good players or a team with BETTER organisation, he would have gone much further more often. Kevin Garnett is a top 5 player for me


#32 wrote:(6) Tim Duncan – San Antonio Spurs

Duncan was brought into the league aside David Robinson (a future hall-of-fame center) and immediately established themselves as the new Twin Towers. After Robinson’s departure from the game, good management has been able to keep Duncan with a stacked lineup his entire career (resulting in many championship banners hanging in the AlamoDome). Tim Duncan is the leader of the Spurs (and probably the 2nd best player at his position in the league), but any higher than 6th place on a list like this would be a crime. He (along with KG) is the main player that I struggle with when arguing my points with other fans. Duncan’s experience in the league can best be described as regal. He entered alongside a hall-of-fame worthy center and has been pampered to ever since, being placed in a near-perfect lineup, which inflates his value to fans. In my opinion, Duncan is over-rated when it comes to winning championships (or even games, for that matter). If he was put in Garnett’s position, I don’t think Duncan would have ever won a championship. However, if you’re an opponent of his, then under-estimating him would be a mistake. Duncan can play the dainty game or the power game as a center, with his range only limited at the 3-point line. He rebounds well, blocks shots at a high level, and can score from many different places with many different post-moves. Tim Duncan grabs the #6 spot from me, but I have a feeling that he’d be more in the Elton Brand-range if he was never put on such an ideal team.


Perhaps never has there been a player that makes it as easy for his teammates, while not really making it seem that obvious than Tim Duncan. He is one of the greatest winners ever as well! He has not had great teams! He has made a superstar (and one of my favourite players) David Robinson look like a winner, though the truth is, Admiral was never tough enough and never stepped up enough to win it all, even come close as the "loaded Spurs" (Dale Ellis, Rodman, Reid, Carr, Elliott, Person, Cummings, many very good players, some that were already established when they arrived at the Spurs). Parker and Ginobili both were not that great when they arrived and are great now but Duncan has a fair bit to do with that! No Center really to speak of to help Duncan inside at all! Tim Duncan is an alltime great and as far as winner and dominance, he is my #1 in the nba right now


#32 wrote:(6) LeBron James – Cleveland Cavilers

James is more of a long-term bet (straight out of high school) as a great singles player for the Cav’s. His only flaw is that he has failed to win a ring thus far… but he will eventually, make no mistake. Also, his defense (while statistically sound) is a bit aggressive and can result in either a breakaway steal or a basket for the opposition. His scoring is undeniably dangerous from behind the backboard all the way out to the half court line. He can also rebound (reluctantly, for some reason), block a shot every week or so, and pass the ball better every game. To place James above any of the higher places is wrong, however, because he hasn’t peaked yet. In time, he’ll probably outgrow nearly everybody on this list… but The List is about who can help their team win in the 05’-06’ season, and James isn’t quite there yet. As a long term bet, nobody has a bigger upside, but his current value is still growing.


Early to say how good this guy will be but he is already a top 5 player! He does have a good supporting cast but he is individually talented and by the end of his career, he may be seen as the greatest ever! He is a top 5 player


#32 wrote:(7) Ron Artest – Indiana Pacers

Hate if you must and inevitably doubt his motives (or mind frame), but you can’t deny the skills of Ron Artest and his ability to help his team win! Every coach in the world will tell you defense wins games and Artest proves this theory as law. He is a former Defensive Player of the Year who often grabs over two steals a game (not by risky lane jumps that can result in transition buckets for the opposition, but by good, old fashion, lock-down, man-to-man defense!). This list is about winning and Artest does plenty of that: Indy’s road trip over Turkey Day resulted in a 22-point ass-beating on Cleveland; solely due to Artest locking down LeBron and forcing King James to go 6 for 20, while committing 6 turnovers. The next day, Artest sat out and Indiana lost to the Atlanta Hawks (at home). That’s a huge gap that Artest fills for the Pacers. Unlike many defensive specialists (Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Dikembe Mutombo), Artest comes complete with an inside/outside offensive package that helps him easily manage 20 points, after playing hard-nosed, exhausting defense all game long. Play him close? He’ll shake you and slam. Give him room? His midrange is automatic. Double him up? He’ll find the open man. And, when all else fails, Mr. Artest has no problem knocking down the trey… all game long.


I don't like this guy! But that is not the point here. Artest came into the league as really a nobody and has made himself into a great player! I find it hard to rate him but since he does it all to a certain degree, I rank him as a top 10 player


#32 wrote:(8) Ray Allen – Seattle SuperSonics

It’s true, one could describe Ray as one-dimensional. And it’s also true that I, personally, can’t stand a player who’s a one-trick pony. But there’s something about being the purest shooter in the league that puts you on any list of current greats. As a 6’5” shooting guard who lives at least 15 feet away from the hole, shooting over 40% your entire career without one shaky-season is pretty damn impressive. Allen is everything to Seattle. His 4 or 5 assists a game are pretty average (like his 4 or 5 boards a night) and his defense is solid enough (over a steal per game for the past 11 seasons). But there’s something about his raw, beautiful stroke that can’t be placed outside the Top 10. If having pivot moves to create your own shot, driving skills to keep the defense honest, a fierce outside touch that can stay hot for months on end, an automatic single point every step at the stripe, tremor-inspiring pressure situations that go down like water, and hops on top of that makes you one-dimensional, then I guess I’ve finally found someone who proves my attitude wrong. You know what they say in Seattle: let it rain!


DO NOT THINK RAY ALLEN IS CLOSE TO TOP10!
Ray Allen is a great shooter and scorer........ nothing more to say! He is more allround now then he was when he was in the Bucks but nothing special except in scoring. I'd put him in the top 20 and maybe in the top 15


#32 wrote:(9) Amare Stoudamire – Phoenix Suns

Here’s hoping. As a fan who’s watched Amare, I’m filled with hope for this man. Remembering his past couple of seasons (before the microsurgery, which may threaten Amare’s game as a whole), all I can say are a few short memories. His jams were teeth shattering, his boards out of this world, his swats could blur vision, and his athleticism was unmatched by anybody his size. Amare Stoudamire was the total package; an inside force who could run the floor like a 6’10” guard (and sky higher than most of them). Many called him the TRUE MVP of the Suns last season, over league-crowned winner Steve Nash. Many said he’d be the best player in the entire NBA someday. Even more said he’d be the Suns franchise player for the next 15 years. So, as a Golden State Warriors fan, here’s hoping this guy stays on the sidelines as long as we can hope for.


Perhaps noone more athletically dominant in the nba! This guy could be huge and become one of the greatest ever but he has some work to do still - Defense and rebounding are not great yet! Hope for him and his team that he comes back like he was before. I'd put him in the top 10 but not top 5 yet


#32 wrote:(10) Dirk Nowitski – Dallas Mavericks

It’s true; I hate Dirk Nowitski. I speak frequently about the NBA’s Metrosexuals (aka, the big man who wishes he was small). Dirk embodies everything I dislike in a tall euro player who doesn’t use his 7-foot body the way a big man should. And I tried pushing him off the list (clearly, a bias that I’m now admitting to). I ran him past Ray Allen… and even on the wrong side of the injured Amare… and I seemed so close to finally being rid of the Texas Cupcake until, finally, I just couldn’t deny the skills any longer. Dirk Nowitski is a big time scorer who can put up big time numbers in rebounding, assists, or 3-point percentage. His free throws are great for a big man, his post game is improving every season, and his inside/outside offensive game seems damn-near complete. It’s true, Dirk’s defensive game could use a facelift (and the fact that he can’t improve his teammates and has never won the big one also stand out). But Dirk Nowitski is an offensive juggernaut who is too tough to contain by most team’s standards. I can make a case for why I believe Tim Duncan should rightfully remain on the 6-spot… but I can’t logically rob Dirk of the Top 10. Nowitski (even though he’s on the goddamn Mavericks) is a top notch player. There, I said it, now never bring this up again.


Dirk Nowitzki is a real talented player and can score really well and also rebounds well. He is on a talented team but an unstable team and that is why I believe the Mavericks have never been able to make a run in the playoffs. Skillwise, this guy is top 5 but winner, well he has been in the playoffs alot and gone quite far so I'll say he is a winner. I'd say he's top 10 and almost top 5


************************************************************************

#32 wrote:Future Top 10’s:
Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Sebastian Telfair, Dwane Wade, and Jason Richardson.

Over-rated Players Who People THINK Should Make Top 10:

Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Manu Ginobli, Chauncey Billips, Gilbert Arenas, and probably AK-47 (migya, I know you got a soft spot for the Jazz).



Allen Iverson!!!! You don't even mention this alltime great player! He is the best scorer right now (and in recent years) and in the top 3 ever I believe (along with Jordan and chamberlain). TMac is just behind him scoringwise. Iverson is a top 5 player! Noone! Noone, has ever taken such a low talented team to the finals like AI did against the Lakers some 5 years ago! That team was garbage and he did it all and still does! This man passes and plays the defense as well! I see him as a fair bit better than Kobe and a little better than TMac.

TMac, to me, is definately a top 10 player and close to top 5, if not in the top 5! TMac did well last season with a team that is not that talented. TMac has the talent to be one of the greatest players ever as well, like Iverson and James.

As far as Andrei Kirilenko - There is no more allround player in the nba! The guy is a freak! Blocks and steals like crazy (makes Ben Wallace look average), rebounds well and scores alright but nothing special YET! Imagine if he had very good guards around him???? (Deron Williams not there yet) I'd love him in the Warriors, he'd make this team a championship caliber group right now!


My rankings are based on what these players have done, stats, skill level and winning with what they've got to work with
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:44 am
I agree more with Migya's comments than yours, #32 (I respect them, tho. At least there's some good reasoning behind them).

I don't think players like Artest or Ray Allen should be on that list and some players (like Nash, who may be, at the same time, the best offensive and worst defensive pg of the NBA) are overrated to me (he'd be a top 10 for his offense alone, but not number 2), and there are some glaring omissions, like Iverson, who is way better than Ray Allen in terms of winning (and almost any other category except shooting).

I don't have the time right now, but I'll post my own list tomorrow. I'm sure it'll be as controversial , if not more, than yours.
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:25 am
I just want to add a few players that I believe are also great players and that are top 10 for me -

Paul Pierce - One of the best scorers and clutch players in the nba. He does everything quite well and is the star on a still pretty bad team or middle of the line team. Pierce has been a top 10 player for years now!

Dwayne Wade - I've seen this guy play twice and have seen many highlights. Never, I mean Never, have I jumped out of my seat quite like when I saw this guy dunk on people, once it was on Garnett I think. This guy does it all (except outside shot but he hits big ones and by next season will shoot threes well) and he is already amazing, especially scoring! I put this guy close to top 5, along with Pierce and think that he will be one of the greatest ever! LeBron doesn't have much on Wade, though Wade is only 6FT 3IN or 6FT 4IN! Wade is electrifying to say the least! A real showman!
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13528
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 pm
My only concern when piecing together that list was who would help a team win. Nevermind the "I can score big, my stat's are better than yours, look at how many rings I have" BS. Who, on a clean slate, would make the biggest push for a team in the current year? Players like McGrady (while impressive on a singles scale) wont help a team win nearly as often as a player like Steve Nash (despite Steve being an average defender, like TMC pointed out). The bottom line is that I believe those 10 players contribute to a team's winning in a more meaningful way than others.

Allen Iverson scores in bundles and pulls Philly by his teeth as far as he can go, but plays a rather isolated game that doesn't really get his teammates into it. As a point guard (which he is, make no mistake. The shooting guard thing is a joke), it's essential to be able to do various playmaking things that Iverson (in my mind) can't do. He doesn't get the ball to the man with the hot hand, he usually thinks "shoot first, pass second", and his ability to create a play on the fly is mediocre. Iverson can't help Philly win when his jumpers off; he can only keep shooting and hope they start going in. Like I said, if there was a #11 spot, he'd be in there... but Iverson JUST BARELY missed in my view.

By the way, I'd like to point out that one's opinion about who the best 10 players are usually isn't biased. I believe those 10 help their teams win more than anyone else. You may have a different opinion. It doesn't make me "biased" towards or against other players; it's simply my opinion! Felt I needed to mention that.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:23 pm
Everyone does have their own opinion but it is obvious that Kobe doesn't make his team win as much as Iverson does. The fact is when a player is on a winning team and he is the main player, such as Nowitzki, he should get alot of credit and be considered a winner.

We can all come out with a list and it would be a bit similar and a bit different, it is just that some things make more sense than others
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:10 am
Ok, I don't have much time, so it won't be as extensive. Also, I'm not going to put them in any specific order. It's not easy to value different positions, and a player who fits really well on a team may not do it on other.

Players I agree with #32's list:

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
KG


That's all. Other players I'd put in my top 10 (time to fasten your seatbelts):

Iverson
T-Mac

PP and Wade (As Migya pointed out)

and (drums roll)

Arenas
Ben Wallace

Some reasoning behind the most glaring omissions:

Kobe: A top 5 talent. A top 5 moron. He can't win sh*t by himself.

Nash: The most difficult to leave out. Brilliant offensively, terrible on defense. I think he fits the Suns perfectly, and is really a great player. But still doesn't make the list, barely. He'd be 11.

Nowitzky: See Nash. Brilliant offensively. Bad on defense. And doesn't make his teammates better.

Amare: Still not there...

Baron: If he were as smart (playing) as he's talented, he'd be the best pg of the league...

And about some surprises in the list:

Ben Wallace: Makes team win. Does anything the team needs to win. Still "offensively challenged", but scores a little and is dominant inside on defense, blocking, rebounding...

Arenas and PP: This two aren't winning much. But it's not their fault they have the two worst coaches of the league. Eddie Jordan is a top notch assistant, but as a head coach, he sucks. Doc Rivers should be a preacher, not a head coach. Both (Arenas & PP) are able to win big... They're a bit of a reach, tho. But the final point for making the list is this: I wouldn't trade any of them for any player not on this list.

The other's have been discussed already. Wade would be a top 5 player if he had something resembling an outside shot.

Ok, I did it. Now you can bash me. Fire away.

8)
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:06 am
We all have our opinions and your list is quite well explained :wink:

All three of us could make pretty good GMs (no St. Jock or Twarzdick here!)
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:34 pm
migya wrote:All three of us could make pretty good GMs


Oh, yeah. No doubt. The average fan would do better than half the f*cktards that have those positions...
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13528
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:35 pm
migya wrote:Everyone does have their own opinion but it is obvious that Kobe doesn't make his team win as much as Iverson does. The fact is when a player is on a winning team and he is the main player, such as Nowitzki, he should get alot of credit and be considered a winner.

I disagree. Players on winning teams often carry inflated values. Dirk was the best player on a STELLAR (to say the least) sqaud! Antawn Jamison, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Terry, ect... Dirk has never been in a situation where his team is screwed if he doesn't ALWAYS carry the load. Right now, that's where Kobe is. Save for Lamar Odom being an above average player, Smush Parker with one or two breakout games, and Phil Jackson's over-rated coaching in play, Kobe Bryant is pretty much on his own with the Lakers! No player in the league (save for, maybe, Shaq) could turn this team into a playoff team by themselves! If Kobe were on the Sixers instead of Iverson, however, the team might actually go all the way. Webber, Kobe, Korver, Iguiodala... it's a championship squad. You can't say Iverson helps his team win more because his team (overall) is WAY better than Kobe's!

Kobe Bryant is a tough guy to like (especially because of his attitude), but denying his skills is simply unacceptable. Don't forget; for many years on the Lakers, Bryant carried that team through Shaq's often extensive (and reoccuring) injuries. If Kobe had a half-decent lineup, it might be more obvious to fans how much he improves a team. As it stands, with Kobe, the Lakers are fighting for an 8th seed... without him, they'd be in the same boat as the Raptors (something you can't say about Iverson or Nowitski's teams). The Sixers and Mav's wouldn't have as severe a drop without their stars, which makes Kobe a better pick.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:24 pm
#32 wrote:
migya wrote:The fact is when a player is on a winning team and he is the main player, such as Nowitzki, he should get alot of credit and be considered a winner.


I disagree. Players on winning teams often carry inflated values. Dirk was the best player on a STELLAR (to say the least) sqaud! Antawn Jamison, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Terry, ect... Dirk has never been in a situation where his team is screwed if he doesn't ALWAYS carry the load.


I said that when the player is a main part of that winning! which Iverson and Nowitzki are DEFINATLELY!


#32 wrote:Right now, that's where Kobe is. Save for Lamar Odom being an above average player, Smush Parker with one or two breakout games, and Phil Jackson's over-rated coaching in play, Kobe Bryant is pretty much on his own with the Lakers! No player in the league (save for, maybe, Shaq) could turn this team into a playoff team by themselves!


Odom is looking more effective than Webber. The two look very similar to their teams but Odom really is like a playmaker, more so than Webber. Guys like Mihm and Parker are solid this season and the Lakers would be nowhere if they were not contributing. LASTLY! Phil Jackson's over-rated coaching????? :oops: Nothing more than the best coach in history!!!! A man who molds a team around a superstar well! The Lakers won nothing for 4 years with Shaq and then easily won when Phil took over! That means something! FACT IS - Kobe Bryant is not a winner! Jordan would be doing better with this team!


#32 wrote:If Kobe were on the Sixers instead of Iverson, however, the team might actually go all the way. Webber, Kobe, Korver, Iguiodala... it's a championship squad. You can't say Iverson helps his team win more because his team (overall) is WAY better than Kobe's!


SOUNDS LIKE A SICK JOKE OR JUST AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE US LAUGH!
The 76ers a championship squad........ NO MATE! That team is a long way off from being championship caliber! Webber is not what he used to be and is overachieving this season. Korver is a clown (and that is being polite!), Dalembert is getting better but close to nothing offensively, Iguodala is a player that does a little bit of everything but nothing much of anything and the rest of the team are "never going to be anythings"!


#32 wrote:Kobe Bryant is a tough guy to like (especially because of his attitude), but denying his skills is simply unacceptable. Don't forget; for many years on the Lakers, Bryant carried that team through Shaq's often extensive (and reoccuring) injuries.


Another JOKE! Bryant carried the Lakers when they had Shaq....... NO! He wanted to but just couldn't do it! Shaq was never injured much anyway and nothing like he is now with the Heat!
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:15 am
#32 wrote:Kobe Bryant is a tough guy to like (especially because of his attitude), but denying his skills is simply unacceptable.


But he's at fault for breaking that team. I stand with what I said, he's a top 5 talent and a top 5 moron. His ego the only reason he's on a losing team with a lousy roster.

I can't consider him a top player as long as he's so detrimental to his team...
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13528
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:26 pm
God, where do I begin...

migya wrote:I said that when the player is a main part of that winning! which Iverson and Nowitzki are DEFINATLELY!

And you're saying that Kobe WASN'T just as big (if not a bigger) part of the Laker's success?!? Kobe was of more value to the Lakers than Iverson or Dirk are to their respective teams! Pop quiz: which other players in the league can convince their team's GMs that their amount of value is worth trading Shaq?!? The answer's not many (definately not Nowitski or Iverson)! This is a null comment.


migya wrote:Odom is looking more effective than Webber. The two look very similar to their teams but Odom really is like a playmaker, more so than Webber. Guys like Mihm and Parker are solid this season and the Lakers would be nowhere if they were not contributing.

Yes, Chris Webber is probably not as good as Lamar Odom right now. The rest of the team??? Not so much, migya. If you removed Bryant & Odom, along with Iverson & Webber, from their team's lineup and placed their teams in a game against each other, LA would be slaughtered! Smush Parker's sporadic value has plummeted now that teams are expecting him to be more than simply a pee-on player... and I wont even start on Chris Mihm's less than anything play. This sounds like more praising of mediocre players who don't deserve it (ala Mehmet Okur).

migya wrote:LASTLY! Phil Jackson's over-rated coaching????? :oops: Nothing more than the best coach in history!!!! A man who molds a team around a superstar well! The Lakers won nothing for 4 years with Shaq and then easily won when Phil took over! That means something!

Yes, migya, over-rated. Okay, he wont rings with stacked teams led by Michael Jordan (the greatest player of all-time) and Shaquille O'Neal (the most dominant force to ever pick up a basketball). The one season he FINALLY has to prove himself without cramming superstar players onto the roster, he wont even make the playoffs! Best coach of all time my ass! He's over-rated and SOMEBODY'S drinking his kool-aid right now...

migya wrote:FACT IS - Kobe Bryant is not a winner! Jordan would be doing better with this team!

Should I even respond to this? You're holding Kobe to the standard of THE GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME?!?! Wake up, man. Jordan's one of a kind and Kobe's not even close; there's no arguing that. But cutting him down because "Jordan would be doing better with this team" is a hillariously wrong thing to say. It's like me calling Roy Jones Jr a complete ***** because "Muhammed Ali could fight better". I'd prefer not to hold every star player to legendary status simply when trying to decide if they are true 'winners' or not (and obviously your definition of 'winner' is different than mine. Kobe has 3 rings, migya. Seems like a proven winner to me.)

migya wrote:SOUNDS LIKE A SICK JOKE OR JUST AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE US LAUGH!
The 76ers a championship squad........ NO MATE! That team is a long way off from being championship caliber! Webber is not what he used to be and is overachieving this season. Korver is a clown (and that is being polite!), Dalembert is getting better but close to nothing offensively, Iguodala is a player that does a little bit of everything but nothing much of anything and the rest of the team are "never going to be anythings"!

Yes, I agree. And Bryant's addition would probably spark them to NBA Finals status. Remember, Kobe's better than Iverson. All these glaring mistakes that you can rattle off in a paragraph wouldn't seem so obvious if the Sixers had a better player in the lead position. Does Dwayne Wade, Antoine Walker, Jason Williams, James Posey, and Gary Payton sound like a championship squad? Not really; but when Shaq's name is thrown into the mix, it does. Same thing with Kobe. If your boy Iverson was as good as Bryant, it would be more obvious.

migya wrote:Another JOKE! Bryant carried the Lakers when they had Shaq....... NO! He wanted to but just couldn't do it! Shaq was never injured much anyway and nothing like he is now with the Heat!

Oh, you're right, migya, how foolish of me... oh, wait a minute, no, you're completely wrong: Shaquille O'Neal played 73 games with the Heat last season... something he achieved with the Lakers only TWICE DURING HIS EIGHT YEARS THERE! O'Neal even had a 49 game season in his second year in LA and STILL the Lakers were a playoff team (thanks to Bryant)! God forbid the 14-year veteran (who pounds around inside, mind you, he's not simply dribbling the ball up the court or anything non-physical) sprains his ankle coming down on it wrong! "Shaq was never injured much anyway and nothing like he is now with the Heat"?!?!?! Where the hell did THAT come from? Do you even check your facts? Kobe Bryant's 80+ games a season is what kept LA in the runnings every year when Shaq only played 60 games.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
Next

Return to Sports Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests