what do you think of tmac?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:54 pm
Calling T-Mac all-around is like calling Reggie Miller all-around. Sure, there's the off-game where he grabs an inordinate amount of assists or steals, but for the most part, he's a single threat. I didn't say he COULDN'T rebound or defend; I said if he can't score, he can't effect the game (hence, my believing him only to be a high-flying scorer because, really, that's the only part of his game on a star level... everything else is average).

Read Christy's comment; when T-Mac only scored 7 points, the Rockets got blown out. He loses his impact on a game when you shut down his scoring. No use in disagreeing. Tracy McGrady, as a player, cannot help a team unless he's having a 20+ point game. I'm sure there's an example or two that could show otherwise, but I'll bet there's an example or two of Mike Dunleavy being the Warriors best player in his career SOMEWHERE.

If LeBron didn't score, he could still get 5 assists, 5 rebounds, and 2 steals a game. If KG only scored 10 points a game, he's still be a star on rebounding and shot-blocking alone. If Kobe didn't score a lot, you could still regard him as a defensive stop. Hell, even Allen Iverson is becoming a playmaker when his scoring fails. Players like McGrady, Nowitski, Maggette, Arenas, and even Jason Richardson (lets be honest with ourselves) lose their star power when scoring is taken out of the equation. That's why JR's still a LIIIIITLE bit shy of being one of the league's elite; his scoring is so vital to our team's success... and (aside from rebounding on a few given nights) he doesn't really effect the game besides his point value. On the flipside, a guy like Baron Davis can rely on his passing skills to contribute when his jumper isn't going. That's why Baron's one of the league's top players. McGrady is like Jason Richardson, but plus 5 more points a game. I wouldn't put JR in the league's Top 10 (maybe not even 15). Why call McGrady an elite player when he's on (basically) the same level as Richardson?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:56 pm
#32 wrote:Calling T-Mac all-around is like calling Reggie Miller all-around. Sure, there's the off-game where he grabs an inordinate amount of assists or steals, but for the most part, he's a single threat. I didn't say he COULDN'T rebound or defend; I said if he can't score, he can't effect the game (hence, my believing him only to be a high-flying scorer because, really, that's the only part of his game on a star level... everything else is average).

Read Christy's comment; when T-Mac only scored 7 points, the Rockets got blown out. He loses his impact on a game when you shut down his scoring. No use in disagreeing. Tracy McGrady, as a player, cannot help a team unless he's having a 20+ point game. I'm sure there's an example or two that could show otherwise, but I'll bet there's an example or two of Mike Dunleavy being the Warriors best player in his career SOMEWHERE.

If LeBron didn't score, he could still get 5 assists, 5 rebounds, and 2 steals a game. If KG only scored 10 points a game, he's still be a star on rebounding and shot-blocking alone. If Kobe didn't score a lot, you could still regard him as a defensive stop. Hell, even Allen Iverson is becoming a playmaker when his scoring fails. Players like McGrady, Nowitski, Maggette, Arenas, and even Jason Richardson (lets be honest with ourselves) lose their star power when scoring is taken out of the equation. That's why JR's still a LIIIIITLE bit shy of being one of the league's elite; his scoring is so vital to our team's success... and (aside from rebounding on a few given nights) he doesn't really effect the game besides his point value. On the flipside, a guy like Baron Davis can rely on his passing skills to contribute when his jumper isn't going. That's why Baron's one of the league's top players. McGrady is like Jason Richardson, but plus 5 more points a game. I wouldn't put JR in the league's Top 10 (maybe not even 15). Why call McGrady an elite player when he's on (basically) the same level as Richardson?




Have a look at TMacs statistics! What do they tell you???? TMac is one of the most allround players in the nba! Probably second to KG. Look at Kobe's, Lebron's and TMac's stats - TMac gets more rebounds than both (7.3, more than 1 more than lebron), more assists than Kobe and about the same as Lebron (5.2 to 5.6) and gets over 1 steal (1.2) and 1 block a game!

This sounds like biased against TMac and that only! Don't be ridiculous and tell me that stats don't say much because no ordinary player does what TMac and the "elite" players are doing!

Do some research before you make such statements - Dislike the guy, alright but the man is one of the best in the nba
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:19 am
#32 wrote:Why call McGrady an elite player when he's on (basically) the same level as Richardson?


Maybe because there are very few players that can take over a game like he can. Remember last year extravaganza against the Spurs?. You think J-Rich is able to do something like that?. If so, think again. I think T-Mac qualifies as one of the best.

Migya is right. Look at his stats (PPG 24.3 | RPG 7.3 | APG 5.2). He's not only a scorer. His defense (usually, because he's able to defend pretty well when he feels like it, it just doesn't happen often) is not good, but he adds a lot more to the team than just scoring.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:17 pm
tmac is a super star, but not a winner.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:27 pm
christy wrote:tmac is a super star, but not a winner.


I think I can agree with that. I was just saying that he's a top player. Doesn't mean he's a winner. At least, not by himself...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:29 pm
Shut down his scoring and he turns into just another player. Am I wrong?

He gets 7 boards and 5 assists a game. I'll say it again for the slow:
I DIDN'T SAY HE COULDN'T DO THOSE THINGS
... I simply said that his only superstar quality is his scoring. One-dimensional players aren't exactly "the elite" in my opinion.

Numbers are one thing. Aside from the blue moon game where he grabs 15 boards, McGrady's rebounding doesn't really make an impact for Houston's chances at winning. He's also not that great of a playmaker; his assists often come from passing out of a double-team, so those numbers are misleading. Nobody on this board can deny that Tracy McGrady's only superstar ability is his scoring.

Don't respond to disagree with me unless you address my points. I know everyone here has a wet spot for McGrady because of his highflying dunks, but look past it for once. McGrady's value to the team's success is a contribution based on not much more than how much he scores. If Houston NEEDED him to rebound or playmake, they'd be in trouble. The only star ability he carries is scoring. I'm saying McGrady's probably in the Top 15 players in the league, but I consider "the elite" to be the Top 5 or so. If you can make a case for McGrady being EXEPTIONALLY good at something else (aka, if he can make a splash in a game when his scoring's off... and in such a way that it helps Houston win), then go ahead and disagree.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:50 pm
Ok. Let's compare stats:

The Big LeBronsky PPG 30.4 | RPG 6.2 | APG 5.6

T-Mac PPG 24.3 | RPG 7.3 | APG 5.2

LeBron's fg % is a little better, almost equal in 3pt. And LeBron averages 3 more minutes of play.

That means T-Mac's stats are better or equal than LeBron's except in scoring.

That is, unless you don't consider LeBron a top player. If so, tell me who's a top player at his position (Kobe's numbers are even worse, except in scoring)...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:04 pm
the numbers are a little bit misleading. rox usually play defense-oriented low-scoring games, so tmac's scoring is lower than it should be. poor shooting generates more rebounds, especially long rebounds, which benefits tmac's reb. number. rox surround tmac/yao with a bunch of spot-up shooters, their catch&shoot turns tmac's skip passes off doubleteam into assists, that's part of the reason that his assist number is pretty impressive.

i agree with both of you. :) tmac is an elite scorer(along with kobe, lebron, ai, anybody else?), but he doesn't make his teammates better.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:18 pm
TMC wrote:Ok. Let's compare stats:

The Big LeBronsky PPG 30.4 | RPG 6.2 | APG 5.6

T-Mac PPG 24.3 | RPG 7.3 | APG 5.2

LeBron's fg % is a little better, almost equal in 3pt. And LeBron averages 3 more minutes of play.

That means T-Mac's stats are better or equal than LeBron's except in scoring.

That is, unless you don't consider LeBron a top player. If so, tell me who's a top player at his position (Kobe's numbers are even worse, except in scoring)...



Thankyou TMC, I was going to say just the same!

#32 - You can start by stating who you think are the elite player, the top 5 as you say it????
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:08 am
migya wrote:#32 - You can start by stating who you think are the elite player, the top 5 as you say it????

You read my mind, migya! I'll be posting my Top 10 Players in the Sports Section whenever I find time to finish the listings. It'll be a long article, but my reasons behind every choice should be perfectly clear... I'm warning you ahead of time (like everything else I do here) there will be plenty of controversy over some of my choices (remember Steve Nash). The List will be dropped sometime in the next week or so.

Also...

TMC wrote:Ok. Let's compare stats:

The Big LeBronsky PPG 30.4 | RPG 6.2 | APG 5.6

T-Mac PPG 24.3 | RPG 7.3 | APG 5.2

LeBron's fg % is a little better, almost equal in 3pt. And LeBron averages 3 more minutes of play.

That means T-Mac's stats are better or equal than LeBron's except in scoring.

That is, unless you don't consider LeBron a top player. If so, tell me who's a top player at his position (Kobe's numbers are even worse, except in scoring)...

I stated above, McGrady's stats are misleading (especially in assists). His rebounding isn't due to any sort of boxing out or positioning, it's simply obvious: McGrady grabs garbage boards that bounce to the outside (like every guard), but has the advantage on most players his size because he's 6'8" and has a giant wingspan. McGrady's rebounding numbers are inflated due to his physical advantages on opponenets (aka, if the opponents actually planned ahead of time to BOX OUT MCGRADY, Tracy would be screwed come gametime). It's also probably worth noting that McGrady's rebounding has declined the past 3 or 4 seasons, so I think his slight uptick in the games so far will stabilize by the season's end. You used current stats between LeBron and Tracy (which are inconclusive, because the season's only about halfway through). Going back to last season, LeBron averaged more assists and rebounds than McGrady. A lot of players shake their game up after the all-star break, so look for your example (LeBron) to take the lead after the halfway mark. Trust me, McGrady's numbers wont stay this high all-season, TMC.

Aaaand, just to nail the hat trick...

migya wrote:This sounds like biased against TMac and that only! Don't be ridiculous and tell me that stats don't say much because no ordinary player does what TMac and the "elite" players are doing!

Do some research before you make such statements - Dislike the guy, alright but the man is one of the best in the nba

... As opposed to having a bias FOR him? As I recall, you took McGrady in our fantasy draft after Garnett, LeBron, and Duncan. Are you honestly trying to make a case that (if anything) I'M the one with the bias simply because I'm pointing out the flaws in (obviously) one of your favorite players? The only player I'm biased against is Nick Van Exel (because he deserves his pelvis to be crushed by a falling astroid). Other than that, I call them like I see them. Everything mentioned about McGrady is true if you actually WATCH the games.

Going by your guys logic, Carlos Boozer is an amazing player because his statistics show that he can get rebounds and score points when, in actuality, he plants himself next to the rim for cheap boards and putbacks (while being an average player, at best... which, along with his injuries, is why he hasn't helped the Jazz at all since being signed). Falling back blindly on statistics without seeing the actual player perform doesn't always do the game justice. McGrady isn't anywhere near LeBron or Kobe's caliber in anything but scoring. No use disagreeing with the truth.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:39 am
Some steals, like steals, are misleading, right. But I'd rather have someone who averages more assists for a whole season than someone who makes the flashier ones...

You may be right about T-Mac not being able to keep those stats the full season, but if he does, that wouldn't be mislading. 82 games averaging more assists and boards aint'a fluke...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:09 pm
Right. 82 games is not a fluke. And the most recent 82 games (aka, last season), LeBron averaged more assists and rebounds (7.4 boards, 7.2 dimes) than McGrady (6.2 boards, 5.7 assists).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:48 pm
#32 wrote:
migya wrote:This sounds like biased against TMac and that only! Don't be ridiculous and tell me that stats don't say much because no ordinary player does what TMac and the "elite" players are doing!

Do some research before you make such statements - Dislike the guy, alright but the man is one of the best in the nba

... As opposed to having a bias FOR him? As I recall, you took McGrady in our fantasy draft after Garnett, LeBron, and Duncan. Are you honestly trying to make a case that (if anything) I'M the one with the bias simply because I'm pointing out the flaws in (obviously) one of your favorite players?



Yes, I did pick McGrady over guys like Dirk and now you can see why! TMac is one of the best fantasy players!

The Rockets may not be doing so well but understand that last season they were quite good and the Orlando Magic, the second last season TMac was there, were not that bad either! TMac has Yao (a soft player that should be better than what he is) but noone else that is of any real value - Sura, Wesley, Howard, Swift etc, are all players that need superstars around them and all of them are either past their best or never were very good to begin with! Kobe had Shaq when he won anything and even with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler (both players that are better than anyone else on the Rockets with the exception of Yao), he never made the playoffs! LeBron has plenty of talented, yet underrated players around him and still can't make his team really great in the weaker East - Illgauskas has always been a very good center that has always produced, even before James arrived, Hughes has already shown how good he is (last season especially), Gooden does enough, especially rebounding at times, Damon Jones is someone who has to be watched because, as he showed for three games straight a couple of weeks ago, he can bomb threes in a heart beat and then there is Donyell Marshall who is very underrated and produces well also!

TMac does not have the support that the other guys mentioned has and the defense just has to focus on him to shut down the Rockets yet he still does great and the Rockets, last season when TMac was healthy, won alot in the tough West
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:43 am
migya wrote:Yes, I did pick McGrady over guys like Dirk and now you can see why! TMac is one of the best fantasy players!


That's not helping our cause, Mygia. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:00 am
Shows what an allround player he is this season. He had another great game last night
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