Perfect Article On The Kobe/LeBron vs MJ Comparisons

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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:14 am
Just read this article and thought it was the most concise and spot on take of the "Will Kobe and/or LeBron reach what M.J did?"

This is exactly why I believe LeBron is/will be the closest to M.J.........due to the fact he just hasnt had the team-mates that Kobe has had..............and look what happend with Kobe's Fakers with Tomjanovich, and then the return of Phil but post Gasol.

Simply put, LeBron has taken weak ass teams, with little or no supporting cast to 2 conference finals and a finals.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... AHeadlines

The next time you see one of those innovative Kobe-LeBron puppet commercials, savor it, because it may be the only matchup we get this season between the game's two biggest and best stars.

With LeBron's Cavaliers on the brink of summer vacation and Kobe's Lakers in a dogfight with the Denver Nuggets, who knows if we'll get to see the real deals try to one-up each other with the same passion as their marionettes?

You can't blame Nike for pushing the potential dream matchup, and the roommate concept was a nice touch.

It was also right on the money. Figuratively speaking.

LeBron and Kobe are indeed roommates, living under the same roof built by Michael Jordan. Let's call it a mobile home -- one that's, of course, crazy mad plush -- because everywhere they go, the ceiling of their Jordan-constructed digs travels with them.

Everything they do on the basketball court is compared to Jordan. Obviously, that's a compliment to their great skills, but it's also a near-impossible standard that often clouds the judgment of their critics.

I mentioned to LeBron a few weeks ago that he's always being compared to Jordan. His response was a healthy one that I'm sure allows him to keep his sanity.

"Man, there'll never be another Michael Jordan," he said. "You'll drive yourself crazy trying to be the next Michael Jordan."

I'm not saying it's wrong to compare these guys to Jordan, mind you. In every field of endeavor, we compare today's best to the best ever, so this is quite natural.

My point is just that Jordan changed the standard by which NBA superstars are measured, and that can often diminish the achievements of the great ones who follow him.

For instance, with Jordan winning six titles without a dominant big man and with just one perennial All-Star teammate (Scottie Pippen) and with such nondescript guys as Stacey King, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Scott Burrell, Luc Longley, Jason Caffey and Scott Williams playing key roles, a title is not just a title anymore.

It's no longer enough for a truly, truly great player to win just a title; he must win multiple titles. Then, even if he wins multiple titles, we analyze who he won them with and how good his teammates were.

That's why people seem to have forgotten that Kobe already has won three championships. We always belittle Kobe's three rings by saying, "But he had Shaq."

Yeah, and?

It's like Kobe has to win a championship without Shaq to validate himself.

He can thank Jordan for that.

And if the Cavs fail to defy history by rallying from their 3-1 deficit in the East finals versus Orlando, LeBron will take hits in some quarters for not being Jordanesque enough.

Never mind that he's scored more points in the first four games of a conference finals series than anyone else (including Jordan); LeBron is averaging 42 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists on 50 percent shooting. Or that he hasn't had one teammate score 20 or more points in this series, a sad reality that hasn't happened in a conference final since MJ's Bulls lost to Detroit in 1989. Or that he has just one other starter hitting at least 44 percent of his shots. Or that the Cavs are the only team left standing that doesn't have at least two legitimate stars. Or that he doesn't have anything close to a Pippen or a frontline stopper like Dennis Rodman.


But such is life After Mike.

The legends we lift up and adore from the B.M. (Before Mike) days weren't held to nearly as high a standard.

First of all, before Mike, perimeter players weren't measured by their championships, because no matter how good you were, you needed a big man to win big.

Oscar Robertson, whose triple-double play we laud (and rightly so), won only one title, and that was as a 32-year-old, 11-year veteran playing with a young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yet Robertson, who averaged 19 points and 8 assists as a champion rather than the 30-12-11 we praise him for, is still viewed as possibly the best guard ever not named Jordan.

The Logo, Jerry West, played 10 seasons with a healthy Elgin Baylor and four with a healthy Wilt Chamberlain and won just one ring. He lost seven times in the NBA Finals before winning his lone championship (and eight times overall) yet he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch."

I hesitate to write this next line because it feels sacrilegious, but it's true: If West were being held to the same standard as Kobe and LeBron, he'd be known as "Mr. Clutching His Throat."

Larry Bird won three rings, but none without Top 50 All-Time teammates Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, not to mention the scores of other solid Celtics he played with over the years, including Hall of Famers Bill Walton and Tiny Archibald.

And though Magic Johnson's five rings all came with Kareem, I've never heard him questioned because he never won one without the game's all-time leading scorer. Of course, Magic also had guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Michael Cooper to finish his no-look dimes.

See, that's how good Jordan was. Before him, conventional wisdom was that you couldn't lead the league in scoring and lead a dynasty, that you couldn't lack a dominant big man and build a dynasty.

Can Kobe and LeBron ever reach MJ's rarified air?

We'll see. But if not, they're still in some pretty lofty company.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:27 am
bigstrads wrote:Simply put, LeBron has taken weak ass teams, with little or no supporting cast to 2 conference finals and a finals.


True, but he also plays in a much weaker conference. He wouldn't have had the same kind of team success in the west (and I said team success, he would have been equally amazing himself).

MJ played in a much more difficult east, but he also had Pippen and Rodman (at least during his final years) and a few other decent players (Ron Harper) by his side, so it ain't easy to compare.

As for Kobe, he had one of the most dominating big men ever by his side... but it's also true that Shaq had never won anything before he teamed up with Kobe.


I don't know, it's hard to rate them all, particularly at this point. It will be easier in a few years down the road, once we get to know what Lebron does with a few more playoff trips in his resume (in Cleveland or elsewhere if he finally decides to bolt).
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:40 am
That article says it well. Jordan can be known as the greatest ever because he took far less talent to championships than any other player ever. Jordan took six years, of struggle, to get to the championship, but once there he never let go, winning championships his last six full seasons with the Bulls.

Lebron is doing similar and I think, if he stays in Cleveland, he will get championships, he has that trait about him.The Cavs aren't awful, they have talent, but that talent is mostly past it, in the case of Big Z, BWallace, Wally and Joe Smith. The team system has everything to do with it, as Phil Jackson employed a very effective team concept that use Jordan's skills and Cavs' coach has to do the same
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:12 pm
Despite playing in a weak conference, his resume so far is very impressive. He's still doing over 70% of the work. You add a Pippen and Rodman to that squad, and I bet that they start winning championships.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:06 pm
xbay wrote:Despite playing in a weak conference, his resume so far is very impressive. He's still doing over 70% of the work. You add a Pippen and Rodman to that squad, and I bet that they start winning championships.


Yep, Mo Williams is the only above average player in that roster, and he probably ain't even a top 10 PG. That roster is pretty deep on role players, but that's about it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:44 pm
Wow how quickly the mighty have fallen. Instead of being the King of the NBA, LJ looks more like a tainted A-Rod, the best player in his sport but deep down a punk that people love to hate.
The trend in the NBA is that NBA champions needs and wins with a quality low post player.

2008 - KG
2007 - Duncan
2006 - Shaq
2005 - Duncan
2004 - Wallace Rasheed

These same guys have won the NBA every since the Jordan 1998 squad.

Today's new champion will feature Gasoft or Superhype, two vastly superior bigs compared to the rest of the league.

King James is the King, the King of Sore-losers, the King of the elite rich who believe that rules of the common man don't apply to them, in Washington, in Wall Street, or on the basketball court.

In the real world, payback and karma always level the field ...from OJ's incarceration, Kobe's humbling sexual assault legal proceedings ...MJ's divorce and the gambling induced hit on his father... maybe not now, but the King will fall again and for NBA purists maybe he will follow Malone's path of a ringless NBA career.

Any ball hog can win NBA MVP, only true champions win the NBA finals MVP ... LJ is zero for rings, zero for MVP finals ... and I am not sorry Kobe, and Howard, KG, Duncan, Yao will keep it that way.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:41 am
dareedle wrote:Wow how quickly the mighty have fallen. Instead of being the King of the NBA, LJ looks more like a tainted A-Rod, the best player in his sport but deep down a punk that people love to hate.


lmao

where the hell do you come up with this stuff?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:13 am
Quazza wrote:
dareedle wrote:Wow how quickly the mighty have fallen. Instead of being the King of the NBA, LJ looks more like a tainted A-Rod, the best player in his sport but deep down a punk that people love to hate.


lmao

where the hell do you come up with this stuff?


I know...............man, I was going to pick that one out as a "classic dareedle" but honestly, after 4 and a half years of his useless posts............its just in one in and out the other (only taken me 4 years to get to the "not calling him a twat phase" :wink:)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:31 am
bigstrads wrote:
Quazza wrote:
dareedle wrote:Wow how quickly the mighty have fallen. Instead of being the King of the NBA, LJ looks more like a tainted A-Rod, the best player in his sport but deep down a punk that people love to hate.


lmao

where the hell do you come up with this stuff?


I know...............man, I was going to pick that one out as a "classic dareedle" but honestly, after 4 and a half years of his useless posts............its just in one in and out the other (only taken me 4 years to get to the "not calling him a twat phase" :wink:)


man Dorito was starting to make sense in some of the Warrior threads, but this is ridiculous! haha
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:55 am
RobDIKUM wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
Quazza wrote:
dareedle wrote:Wow how quickly the mighty have fallen. Instead of being the King of the NBA, LJ looks more like a tainted A-Rod, the best player in his sport but deep down a punk that people love to hate.


lmao

where the hell do you come up with this stuff?


I know...............man, I was going to pick that one out as a "classic dareedle" but honestly, after 4 and a half years of his useless posts............its just in one in and out the other (only taken me 4 years to get to the "not calling him a twat phase" :wink:)


man Dorito was starting to make sense in some of the Warrior threads, but this is ridiculous! haha


I know! and THAT says it all huh...........you know your up sh*t creak without a paddle when Dareedle starts to make some sense! :wink:

But alas...........he couldnt keep it up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:43 am
I agree with him I cannot stand LeBron James and I hope he never wins a championship in the NBA. He is a me-first poor sport. Can't root for that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 am
Tarantism wrote:I agree with him I cannot stand LeBron James and I hope he never wins a championship in the NBA. He is a me-first poor sport. Can't root for that.


how is he me-first? sure the guy should have shook hands, he was upset , get over it. Are you guys all that soft and ****ing cuddly? oh, Lebron is a poor sport, I don't want to root for him. That's fine, but the guy is not a selfish player. Take him away and substitute another player and they won't take the Cavs where he took them. He makes everybody else better as well, and there's nothing Me-first about that
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:54 pm
Question...............did M.J embrace and congratulate the Pistons players after they kept bouncing the Bulls out of the playoffs in the 80's and 90's?

F*cks sake, all this crap that is being made out of what LeBron "did" is pathetic.............HE WANTS TO WIN!!! HES EMOTIONAL!!! he explained it after the fact, that he just wanted to collect his thoughts and reflect on his season.

Of course, the gracious thing to do would have been to atleast shake a few hands.............but god damn, is it really tisbg a deal that he didnt?

Its the typical human and media mentality to want to find things wrong about people that are of LeBrons status and popularity............everyone loves a hero/icon right? well, what they love more is to see a hero or an icon fall.

Also, its the mentality of "Ohh, LeBrons so popular, EVERYONE loves LeBron...........so because I think Im cool and different, I couldnt possibly say that I like someone that so many other like"......even more pathetic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:35 pm
i think the reason this Lebron thing is getting so much play in the media now is because if Lebron wants to be the "global brand" he's trying so hard to be, he has to accept some of the responsibility that goes with being a brand and not just a basketball player.

Kmart drops f bombs and slurs on Mark Cuban (on national TV no less) and the world collectively shrugs, because that's what's expected from him. no class. But Lebron is different, he's paid to endorse, and he's expected to be on his best behavior. he represents. and with that comes expected things like good sportmanship, grace under fire, etc.

Personally, I've got no beef with what he did. he's an ultra competitive guy who can't stand the idea of losing, and he probably didn't want to say anything he'd later regret to goofball craig sager shoving a mic in his face minutes after a heartbreaking and very disappointing loss.

Lebron is perhaps the most team oriented superstar in basketball today (with maybe the exceptions being duncan, nash, and chris paul). He has the talent to be the best player in the game, yet he focuses consistently on getting his team involved, sharing credit, and winning a championship. his triple doubles speak for themselves. at least on the court, he is a pretty selfless superstar.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
MCJackintheBox wrote:i think the reason this Lebron thing is getting so much play in the media now is because if Lebron wants to be the "global brand" he's trying so hard to be, he has to accept some of the responsibility that goes with being a brand and not just a basketball player.

Kmart drops f bombs and slurs on Mark Cuban (on national TV no less) and the world collectively shrugs, because that's what's expected from him. no class. But Lebron is different, he's paid to endorse, and he's expected to be on his best behavior. he represents. and with that comes expected things like good sportmanship, grace under fire, etc.

Personally, I've got no beef with what he did. he's an ultra competitive guy who can't stand the idea of losing, and he probably didn't want to say anything he'd later regret to goofball craig sager shoving a mic in his face minutes after a heartbreaking and very disappointing loss.

Lebron is perhaps the most team oriented superstar in basketball today (with maybe the exceptions being duncan, nash, and chris paul). He has the talent to be the best player in the game, yet he focuses consistently on getting his team involved, sharing credit, and winning a championship. his triple doubles speak for themselves. at least on the court, he is a pretty selfless superstar.


Well said and I agree.

But as far as him being a me-first player... that's ludicrous. MC said it all, basically. LeBron runs the entire team. Throughout that Orlando series, he scored nearly, about half, or over half of the Cavs' points in all six games. He ran the offense, crashed the boards, and played defense with more intensity than others. He got other players shots, even though he probably knew he'd make a "Stephen Jackson-esque" shot. If it wasn't for that buzzard beater in game two, the Cavs would of been swept. If it wasn't for James' triple-double, the Cavs would of lost it in game five.

Also, adding on to the Kobe vs LeBron argument...

After Kobe lost Shaq and before he had Gasol, the Lakers were just another first round playoff team. One year under Tomjanovic or whatever his name was, they were crap. Even the Warriors beat them while they still had Dunleavy and Murphy on the team. Then, they get Phil Jackson back, and they return to the playoffs. Yet, Kobe cannot get past the Suns for a couple years. And instead of trying to get his teammates involved, he decides to average over 35 a game and do majority of the scoring. He was a me-first player, and on small occasions, got his teammates shots.

My point is if LeBron is me-first, Kobe is me-ONLY.
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