Most Improved Player? Brandon Roy

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:21 am
Most Improved Player? Brandon Roy

By Kelly Dwyer


This is a tough one.

It's always a tough one. Well, sometimes it's a tough one. Every so often, it's a tough one. This time, let's say, it's a tough one. Back to this, again.

The hardest thing about this award is divining and trying to separate people's expectations for certain players with their biases, or lack of knowledge about a particular player. Not everyone has the time to be an NBA nerd, not everyone has the time to sift through per-minute stats or game discs. So you have to inform them about what, exactly, could be deceiving them. And people don't like that.

Not to pick on the guy, but take Scoop Jackson. He selected Roger Mason Jr. for his Most Improved Player candidate, and he probably has an actual vote. And not to pick on RMJ, but this is a ludicrous choice.

To Scoop, it probably makes sense, because it's obvious that he doesn't watch much of the NBA. But there is absolutely nothing that has "improved" about Roger Mason Jr. in 2008-09. Now, there are some different things about the Spurs guard. For instance, he's been on national TV a lot more in 2008-09, and he's playing nine more minutes per game in 2008-09.

And for Roger, this is an improvement. He no doubt loves being the hero on several nationally televised contests, and every player loves more minutes. And as a result of these minutes, his points per game average has shot up by about three per contest. Improvement, right?

Well, no. He's playing more minutes, but he's doing less with them. Per-minute, his scoring is down from last season. His rebounding? Up a little. His assists? Down. His blocks? Down. His steals? Down. Shots per-minute? Down. His shooting percentage? Down. Usually a decrease in shots results in an increase in shooting percentage. His turnovers? The same.

"Most Improved Player," or, "a Guy Scoop Jackson Didn't Really Pay Attention to Until December of 2008, Despite What He'll Probably Tell You"? You make the call.

From there, you have to convince people that per-minute, pace-adjusted stats are the way to go. Per-minute, because those numbers don't tend to fluctuate wildly year-to-year, or team-to-team, or role-to-role. History has proven that.

Pace-adjusted? Well, that makes it easier to compare the relative value of performance between a guy like, say, Danny Granger (who plays on an ultrafast team that runs at every given opportunity), or, say, Brandon Roy (a guy stuck on a team with the lowest number of possessions per game).

Ignore pace-adjusted stats at your own peril, lest you think Stephen Jackson had a better year than Paul Pierce, or that Chris Duhon had a better season than Jason Kidd. Without pace adjustment, both Pierce and Kidd come out a step slow, and that isn't fair. Nor would it be correct.

And to me, the trickiest part is expectations. And it's the reason why Kevin Durant is not my Most Improved Player.

There was nothing about Durant's rookie turn, at the age of 19, that wouldn't have suggested the way he's playing in 2008-09. I don't mind for a second handing the award to a second or third-year guy if he makes a huge, unexpected leap from year to year, but a kid with a 15.8 PER, 20 points, and 4.4 rebounds in about 34 minutes playing at age 19 should well be expected to produce a 20.6 PER, alongside 25.3 points and 5.5 rebounds in 39 minutes a game at age 20.

That's a big leap from year to year, but it's not an unexpected leap. It is improvement, but it's nothing that you wouldn't expect. For a star of Durant's caliber, this is just gradual, year-to-year improvement. This is his production level's — based on his rookie year — idea of "gradual." He's that good.

This might be hard to fathom, but pretend Michael Jordan didn't break his foot early in his second NBA season. If he would have dropped 33 a game while playing 40 minutes, up from 28 and 38 minutes the year before, would he be an MIP? And because he wasn't as young as Durant in his first two seasons, his jump wouldn't have been as severe.

LeBron James' PER jumped about seven points in his second season, but I think that was to be expected. It's the player he is. Kevin Durant was like this last year, he's just growing at a rate you can expect. A brilliant, brilliant rate.

So, to me, we have to take it to the players who turned into something they weren't, previously.

This means getting rid of all the expected jumps, and getting rid of all the "improvement" that really came in the form of increased minutes.

David Lee? You improved this season. Your points shot up by over five a game, and your rebounds by nearly three a contest. But you also played six more minutes a game. Your per-minute numbers did improve, but not in a way that couldn't be explained away by your gradual, year-to-year, improvement.

You'll improve at this rate for the next few years until you hit your prime, so be happy with that. And be happy that your 35 minutes a game are a nice two fingers to the face of the people that argue that certain players are only good for 27 or 28 minutes a night "... because, well, that's what the coach plays him. Are you saying you're smarter than the coach? What have you ever coached?"

Charlie Villanueva? You made a solid, somewhat unexpected jump after your numbers declined for a couple of years. Nice turnaround, appreciate the consistency, but it wasn't enough.

Joel Przybilla? Great year, but check out his per-minute numbers (hell, check his per-game numbers) from his first two years in Portland. They don't hand out awards for returning to 2004-06 form.

LeBron James and Chris Paul? You improved, big time, but not to a level that wasn't suggested by your still-overlooked turns in 2007-08.

From there, to me, it comes down to three guys. Brandon Roy, Danny Granger, and Devin Harris.

Harris is the popular pick. He struck early, averaging 26 a game in November as everyone put the award aside for the lightning-quick Nets guard. But few seemed to notice as his points per game average dropped by 10 points in December. That averages out to about 21 a game, and that's what he finished the season with.

Now, and you'll have to trust me on this, had you told me last summer that Devin Harris (at age 25, turning 26) would score 21 a game for the Nets this year, I wouldn't have blinked. They were a subpar team, with or without Vince Carter (who I thought would be traded out West), he's steadily improving, he'll get a fair amount of shots, minutes, and freedom from Lawrence Frank.

The problem I have is that Harris had an 18 PER with Dallas last year, while being lorded over by Avery Johnson. He was underrated, he was injured, and then he came back a little too early with the Nets to finish out the year. So jumping from 18 to this season's 21.6 PER on a team that affords him all sorts of new opportunities just seems about right.

It is improvement, it's very good improvement, but has it been the best improvement?

He's shooting worse, the worst mark since his rookie year. His rebounds are the same. His assists are the same despite being given more chances to collect dimes on the Nets, instead of having to give the ball up early in a possession as he had to in Avery's offense. Again, these are per-minute numbers. Numbers that hold up best. Numbers that aren't clouded by a coach who coached well enough to be fired last season.

Steals the same per-minute, turnovers the same per-minute, points are up because he gets to shoot more. About three more shot attempts per 36 minutes, over four more shot attempts per game.

So, his points have gone up. He's been great, and worth our time and this breakdown and an All-Star spot. But has he been the most improved? I don't think so. He's up there, but he hasn't jumped enough.

Danny Granger? He's improved. His game is different. Just by watching this kid play over the last two years, you can tell.

He's moved from a standstill, Richard Jefferson-type prone to bad ball-handling and iffy choices, to an all-around offensive go-to guy. You might be in trouble if he's your best player, but he kept the Pacers in a ton of games this year, and was one of the league's top fourth quarter scorers without adjusting for pace.

Watching your PER jump five points? Indiana's face past doesn't cloud that. This is why I use the stat. His shooting percentages have remained the same, but with his improved dribble, he's also been able to free himself for more perimeter and interior looks. That's not just a function of Mike Dunleavy Jr. being out for most of the season. Granger has improved.

His rebounds have gone down a bit, but everything else has stayed the same. The biggest thing, besides the points jump? His turnover rate. His per-game turnovers have actually increased, but when you use turnover rate (the percentage of possessions he uses that actually end up in turnovers), you can tell how much he's improved at taking care of the ball. From 11.1 percent to 9.8. Don't sniff at that.

(And this is why we use that stat. Granger has had the ball in his hands way, way more in 2008-09 than he had it in 2007-08, so it's not fair to say that he's been even or worse in comparison because his turnovers per game jumped from 2.1 to 2.4 a contest.)

His points per game has jumped by 6.1 since last season. That's a ton, make no mistake, but he also plays on the NBA's third-fastest team. Lots of chances to score those 6.1 points when you're giving up 120 on the other end and shooting with 18 left on the shot clock. This isn't meant to demean Granger's significant accomplishments this season. This is just pointing out what happened. And the points increase is what he's leaning on the most.

And in the end, that's why I go with Roy.

You see, Danny Granger with a 16.7 PER in 2007-08? You tell me that he's going to jump to 21.6 PER in 2008-09? With Dunleavy out and more chances to score? That sounds about right.

Brandon Roy, a nice player, jumping to superstar-level 24.1 PER? That's a bigger jump. And that's not even taking into account his improved defense (he shuts down small forwards this year compared to last, while doing solid work on shooting guards), something PER can't document.

With Harris and Granger, increased responsibility and increased shots per game resulted in declining shooting percentages for Devin, and sustained (almost to the exact number) shooting percentages for Granger.

With Roy? With the same team? He's taken more responsibility, and earned more responsibility, taken more shot attempts, and earned them with big increases in shooting overall (45 to 48 percent ... for a guard!), three-point percentage (34 to 38), and free throw percentage (from 75 to 82). Though it must be noted that his free throw mark last year was likely a fluke, as he shot 83 percent in his rookie year.

And while only a four-point per game jump seems small in comparison to Granger's six points, remember that the Pacers are the third-fastest team in the NBA, while the Trail Blazers are far and away the slowest. Couple that with the fact that nobody on the Trail Blazers was lost for most of the season due to injury — Roy didn't have someone else's shots to take — and the fact that a jump to this sort of output in his third season seems wholly out of line with his contributions in his first two seasons, and you have my Most Improved Player.

It's not that interesting. It's not that overwhelming, and it's not that mind-blowing. Just a very good player who vaulted into the NBA's top tier, and just a step behind Kobe at his position. That's improvement. More than any I've seen this season.

_________________________________________________________________


Interesting read, but I'd still give it to Devin Harris as I just didn't expect that skinny shiit to be anything good, ever
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:06 am
That was interesting read.............especially the complete ransaking of Scoop Jackson reputation (something Ive never subscribed too since I used to play with some of his friends and he generally acted like a total c*ck smoker)

For me............you can say stuff like "Give a guy more minutes and shots and of course he will improve his numbers" but for me its one thing having that happen to you as a player and actually taking that opportunity and using it.

Thats what sets real players apart from others, and was why Roger Mason won it last year.

So in that vein, Ill go with Granger............simply because the guy stepped up to plate and put that team on his shoulders when they needed him most, took the extra responsibility and ran with it, improving all areas of his game.

Saying that, it is a difficult year for this award, given that there hasnt really been anyone thats come out of knowhere or drastically improved their numbers and play.

I mean you could through in Dwight Howard and even LeBron given how they have elevated their games this year.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:46 pm
I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:56 pm
TMC wrote:I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.


Meh........I dont think of Harris because I always thought he was capable of what hes doing now if he was the 1st/2nd option on a team.

I mean compared to last season with NJ, hes playing 3 more minutes, taking 3 more shots and the only thing thats different/improved is that hes averaging 6 more points than he did last year.........everything else is exactly the same.

Compared to his best stretch in Dallas, hes playing 6 more minutes, taking 6 more shots, shooting worse percentages in all catagories, 1 more assist and 7 more points.

Although I did say that you have to TAKE your opportunites/numbers when given extra opportunities..........I think he is the perfect example of bloated numbers because of that increased role, not necesarily that hes improved as a player.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:36 pm
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.


Meh........I dont think of Harris because I always thought he was capable of what hes doing now if he was the 1st/2nd option on a team.

I mean compared to last season with NJ, hes playing 3 more minutes, taking 3 more shots and the only thing thats different/improved is that hes averaging 6 more points than he did last year.........everything else is exactly the same.

Compared to his best stretch in Dallas, hes playing 6 more minutes, taking 6 more shots, shooting worse percentages in all catagories, 1 more assist and 7 more points.

Although I did say that you have to TAKE your opportunites/numbers when given extra opportunities..........I think he is the perfect example of bloated numbers because of that increased role, not necesarily that hes improved as a player.


Well, that's a way to look at it, but it's based on stats and, as usual, they prove to be worthless. Truth is, Harris is the best player of an average team, and that team is average just because of him, because if not, they'd have the worst record of the east (Carter is a shadow of his former self, and even tho Brook Lopez had a great season... well, let's say the Wizards would rout this team without Harris).

Also, being the best player of a bad team is actually harder than playing a role, because you're forced to carry your team, to lead them to wins, and thus, you become the focus of opposing defenses. It also doesn't help your stats, if you play point guard, because you're gonna play with worse teammates that won't neccesarily take advantage of the chances you create for them. Of course, stats don't tell anything about that...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:50 pm
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.


Meh........I dont think of Harris because I always thought he was capable of what hes doing now if he was the 1st/2nd option on a team.

I mean compared to last season with NJ, hes playing 3 more minutes, taking 3 more shots and the only thing thats different/improved is that hes averaging 6 more points than he did last year.........everything else is exactly the same.

Compared to his best stretch in Dallas, hes playing 6 more minutes, taking 6 more shots, shooting worse percentages in all catagories, 1 more assist and 7 more points.

Although I did say that you have to TAKE your opportunites/numbers when given extra opportunities..........I think he is the perfect example of bloated numbers because of that increased role, not necesarily that hes improved as a player.


Well, that's a way to look at it, but it's based on stats and, as usual, they prove to be worthless. Truth is, Harris is the best player of an average team, and that team is average just because of him, because if not, they'd have the worst record of the east (Carter is a shadow of his former self, and even tho Brook Lopez had a great season... well, let's say the Wizards would rout this team without Harris).

Also, being the best player of a bad team is actually harder than playing a role, because you're forced to carry your team, to lead them to wins, and thus, you become the focus of opposing defenses. It also doesn't help your stats, if you play point guard, because you're gonna play with worse teammates that won't neccesarily take advantage of the chances you create for them. Of course, stats don't tell anything about that...


All good/valid points.

The difference for me is that Harris has stepped INTO a role, rather than stepped UPTO a role............if you know what Im getting at. :wink:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:13 pm
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.


Meh........I dont think of Harris because I always thought he was capable of what hes doing now if he was the 1st/2nd option on a team.

I mean compared to last season with NJ, hes playing 3 more minutes, taking 3 more shots and the only thing thats different/improved is that hes averaging 6 more points than he did last year.........everything else is exactly the same.

Compared to his best stretch in Dallas, hes playing 6 more minutes, taking 6 more shots, shooting worse percentages in all catagories, 1 more assist and 7 more points.

Although I did say that you have to TAKE your opportunites/numbers when given extra opportunities..........I think he is the perfect example of bloated numbers because of that increased role, not necesarily that hes improved as a player.


Well, that's a way to look at it, but it's based on stats and, as usual, they prove to be worthless. Truth is, Harris is the best player of an average team, and that team is average just because of him, because if not, they'd have the worst record of the east (Carter is a shadow of his former self, and even tho Brook Lopez had a great season... well, let's say the Wizards would rout this team without Harris).

Also, being the best player of a bad team is actually harder than playing a role, because you're forced to carry your team, to lead them to wins, and thus, you become the focus of opposing defenses. It also doesn't help your stats, if you play point guard, because you're gonna play with worse teammates that won't neccesarily take advantage of the chances you create for them. Of course, stats don't tell anything about that...


All good/valid points.

The difference for me is that Harris has stepped INTO a role, rather than stepped UPTO a role............if you know what Im getting at. :wink:


Uh... no.

But it's late. I'll give it another try tomorrow. Maybe drunk, if I need it for you to make sense. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:28 pm
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:I really don't get it this time. People may talk all they want, but it's just a try to think out of the box. This year is the easiest I remember when it comes to picking the MIP award.

It's Devin Harris. When a guy goes from merely "decent starter" to a top 5 player at his position, there's no other way to put it. Harris has to win it. Several other players deserve to be mentioned, like Granger or even Wade, who had never played at this level before for a full regular season, but none of them have improved his role (and, thus, his game) as much as Harris.


Meh........I dont think of Harris because I always thought he was capable of what hes doing now if he was the 1st/2nd option on a team.

I mean compared to last season with NJ, hes playing 3 more minutes, taking 3 more shots and the only thing thats different/improved is that hes averaging 6 more points than he did last year.........everything else is exactly the same.

Compared to his best stretch in Dallas, hes playing 6 more minutes, taking 6 more shots, shooting worse percentages in all catagories, 1 more assist and 7 more points.

Although I did say that you have to TAKE your opportunites/numbers when given extra opportunities..........I think he is the perfect example of bloated numbers because of that increased role, not necesarily that hes improved as a player.


Well, that's a way to look at it, but it's based on stats and, as usual, they prove to be worthless. Truth is, Harris is the best player of an average team, and that team is average just because of him, because if not, they'd have the worst record of the east (Carter is a shadow of his former self, and even tho Brook Lopez had a great season... well, let's say the Wizards would rout this team without Harris).

Also, being the best player of a bad team is actually harder than playing a role, because you're forced to carry your team, to lead them to wins, and thus, you become the focus of opposing defenses. It also doesn't help your stats, if you play point guard, because you're gonna play with worse teammates that won't neccesarily take advantage of the chances you create for them. Of course, stats don't tell anything about that...


All good/valid points.

The difference for me is that Harris has stepped INTO a role, rather than stepped UPTO a role............if you know what Im getting at. :wink:


Uh... no.

But it's late. I'll give it another try tomorrow. Maybe drunk, if I need it for you to make sense. :mrgreen:


LOL!............maybe if Im drunk Ill see it your way.

Actually, that will probably be the only way. :mrgreen:

Ahh, how Ive missed these little interactions with my secret lover. :wink:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:16 pm
She makes a point for Brandon Roy. He's vastly improved his game in all areas even though he plays in a slower system, with less possessions, and less chances to produce big stats.

Whereas Devin Harris suddenly becomes the number one option on a faster paced team with him having more opportunities. I mean, let's face it, other than Vince Carter and Brook Lopez, there are no other scorers on that team worth mentioning.

I enjoy these articles; the ones that think outside the box. But I'd still give it to Harris. Roy has high expectations. And while he improved his game in less chances compared to Harris, it was expected for him to make a vast improvement. We all know the player he is to become, we all know the player he will become. With Devin Harris, we knew he was pretty decent, but we didn't expect him to come out the gate just like that. And even though his numbers went down as the season progressed, he still was worth mentioning as one of the top PG's in the league.

Basically, if she thinks Roy deserves it. Then, I think guys like Dwight Howard or Dwyane Wade deserve it. Using her logic, they don't. Heck, I could even give the award to Al Jefferson if he never got injured. Overall right now, Devin Harris wins it. Danny Granger will get his due. Heck, I even think Rajon Rondo will get his as well. Which btw, puzzles me. I don't understand how she doesn't even mention Rondo in her article.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:01 pm
im thinking mo williams just because he is on a winning team unlike harris. and as for roy he's great but he became a household name last year. he didn't really improve, people just know him more.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:25 pm
This reward is as dumb as your selections... i think the NBA will pick one of these guys, but they are making the wrong decision.

LETS PLAY A GAME. YOU SHOULD GUESS WHERE THE POTENTIAL CANDIDATES THAT YOU ALL HAVE MENTION FIT ON THE FOLLOWING DESCRIPTIONS. WINNER GET A :D BY ME.

As for me, I am now rooting for Roger Mason jr. to win, along with my original preseason prediction of Rajon Rondo.


- - - - - -

1. A guy who already got a 5 year extension that see's him getting over 70 million, and was a top 10 fantasy pick BEFORE the season... uhhh NO, HE DOES NOT DESERVE THIS REWARD.

2. A dude, who started playing this way and style LAST YEAR after he got traded, and is making about 8 million this year, does not deserve this reward.

3. A guy whose numbers are worse than last year, does not deserve this reward (and making 8.5 million per for the next 5 years).

4. A guy who has been a household name for years now AND already won a reward (R.O.Y) just 2 years ago, does not deserve this award.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:26 pm
The way I see it, an award, ANY award, should be given to a player who fits that award description. In this case, the player that wins Most Improved, should be a player that has really increased their stats and gotten better skills or shown better ability, that's it. Devin Harris didn't look to be more than a fast player, one that could run by opponents and get some layups. He has shown he can be a star this season and looks MUCH better than he ever has. Granger is now a superstar caliber player himself and he also is showing much more.

That's what I think anyway
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:21 pm
harris also improved his assists per game if im not mistaken. i think the award should go to him.
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:48 am
And who wins???

My pick Danny Granger...............and all you guys tried to talk me round it. :wink:

Close with Harris but the right man won it.........also, Roy got 2 votes! :mrgreen:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/05/12/most ... index.html

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:34 pm
Jameer Nelson Orlando - 1 1 4
Kelenna Azubuike Golden State - - 3 3
Dwyane Wade Miami - 1 - 3

buke got 3 votes! yay!

Jameer Nelson woulda won it if he hadn't gotten injured.
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