saintdee wrote:

Jackattack wrote:

saintdee wrote:

Jackattack wrote:

migya wrote:

Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.

True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings

great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"

I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.

You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.

could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.

read the bold (above and way above) before saying I'm making excuses for the this guy...

you might have said you're not making excuses for him explicitly but look at what you wrote and tell me what you're saying isn't a excuse.

In my mind this is a very black and white issue. You either think he's guilty as a cold blooded murderer who deserves no sympathy.

Or

He's innocent because it was the police's fault.

No one forced him to pull the trigger. No one forced him to kill people except himself. Blaming society for personal problems is the weakest excuse ever. The economy is bad so you gotta rob people? Tough luck everyone is in the same economy but not all of us have to go out and rob people. Live in danger of police abuse everyday? so what we all live with police everyday. We all have to take responsibility as adults for the choices we make in life and not try to shift the blame or else we'll end up with more tragedy like this..its too easy to blame "the man" for everything and justify whatever action you take.

No, you need to take a look at what I wrote again. I was not making excuses for him, just stating some very real things that are in play around this issue. As Migya said, it's all about the discussion. For you it is black and white. For me murder is black or white, but the circumstances that led to this incident are very grey.

Captain_Jack wrote:

bada wrote:

Captain_Jack wrote:That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

Complete and utter garbage. How is my comments of saying my thoughts are with the family of those that have died "biased". Having compassion for my fellow human beings is NOT a "socially constructed" opinion. It is called being a human being... there is nothing biased about it. I feel terrible when people die, whether they are cops or gang bangers in your example

Captain_Jack wrote:I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them.

So me saying I feel bad for family and friend of those that died is NOT HONEST and that I am just a lemming that blindly follows what society tells me??? Why is Speaks posts honest but mine or the others NOT? Complete BS!!!

Captain_Jack wrote:I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.

I understand that you dont feel his comments deserved a ban and I respect that, however he was banned because we told him we did not want that on the board, but he purposely did it again, and ti even a greater extreme. The issue the caused the warning is irrelevant at this time... he was warned and he knew the consequences but chose to do it again. Like a grown up, he has to deal with the consequences. I am sure he understands that.

But we in America are socially conditioned to feel bad when people die. Other civilizations believe that death is a natural part of life and instead of grieving they celebrate passage into afterlife. So yes it is 100% a social construction to feel bad when people die, that is the way our society works. It is not the way every society works. 99% of our feelings and our emotions are created through social construction. It is so deeply embedded in our culture that it seems "natural" however it is not necessarily any more natural than throwing a party and celebrating a person going on to heaven or wherever you think they go. Indications would actually show that indifference is closer to our natural reaction to death, because in free civilizations without mandated social customs, death was just another thing that happened on a daily basis and people did not grieve.

I don't have a problem with Speak being banned for not listening to what you asked him. I just also don't have a problem with what he said because I don't see why we should all have to grieve or feel bad for people we've never heard of until now. Death is a part of life.

people feel bad because they realize that these guys went to work one morning going through their normal routine and ended up not makin it through the day. Socially conditioned or not (personally i believe that's bullshit Cap), people believe that that can happen to anybody. It sort of puts a scare into people and kind of brings about all these feelings where you start to relate.

Also, you started to say that everybody is assuming that these guys were great and whatever because they were cops, basically giving them the benefit of the doubt. NOT TRUE!!! we don't know who they were and so we feel bad about their situation as well as what their family went through. The BART thing is a completely different sequence of events, magnified by the fact that it was caught on tape. If a tape comes out showing the cops pulling this guy over, approaching his window and getting shot without any warning, it's SAD!! It's a tragic way to die, and society doesn't have to tell me that. You're missing the point CAP, and you're right that Speak was in poor taste, but this isn't about the post itself. The post was deleted and should have been left at that. And nobody says you have to grieve, but i don't think we should be celebrating the fact that these guys got gunned down especially if we know nothing about them.

RobDIKUM wrote:people feel bad because they realize that these guys went to work one morning going through their normal routine and ended up not makin it through the day. Socially conditioned or not (personally i believe that's bullshit Cap), people believe that that can happen to anybody. It sort of puts a scare into people and kind of brings about all these feelings where you start to relate.

As a general rule - If you respect other people and don't be forceful in anything, you will not be on anyone's hit list. You abuse someone and violate them, in one form or another, that person then has a dislike of you and it is through the feeling of dislike that almost every killing and negative action is stemmed from. Only nutters that have a liking for hurting others, a brain chemical problem perhaps or something like that, that brings them to have a liking of hurting others, is the exception. Every other negative act by a person, be it killing or some other violation, stems from a feeling of dislike, ualmost always in reaction to the other person having done something negative to them.

Don't know if the four police that were killed had abused anyone in the past, be it the person that killed them, someone he knew or someone else totally unknown to the killer. Thing is with being police, you are entering a position that is dependant on others in the same position as you and by that I mean, people of society, be it a certain ethnic group or whatever, will have a perception of you and those in your position by what they have experienced in relation to other police, not just you. As an example, if an area or suburb, in say Seattle (just a hypothetical example and one that is very likely not the case in real life) has a fairly large black (african american) population and many members of that population have been and do get treated differently by police to what other ethnic or race populations get treated, especially negatively (almost always the case), many members of that black people population will have a dislike for police. If a man, be he new to the area or not, signs up to be in the police, he will not just be judged on his on attitude and actions, the black people in that area, who have experienced negative situations with police before, will likely (not all but some at least) dislike him as well. If one member of the black people population gets fed up, has enough and decides to take out some police, as a reaction to being abused, that new police might happen to get targetted, not by his own actions, but because he is in the same position and group to others (police) that violated that black man.

Basically, be careful who you hangout with, what group you are a part of and what job you choose, because perceptions are in the minds of many people, basically all people to different degrees, and there is a chance, small or not so small, that you will be treated negatively because of that, be it getting sworn at or killed.

Not saying it is right, as judging negatively is usually the beacon of violence, wars and suffering, but it is real and in some situations, it is not so easy not to judge, like a black man who has been abused and violated by police many times and every police he sees, he doesn't know whether they are also thinking or going to violate him as well

Captain_Jack wrote:

bada wrote:

Captain_Jack wrote:That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

Complete and utter garbage. How is my comments of saying my thoughts are with the family of those that have died "biased". Having compassion for my fellow human beings is NOT a "socially constructed" opinion. It is called being a human being... there is nothing biased about it. I feel terrible when people die, whether they are cops or gang bangers in your example

Captain_Jack wrote:I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them.

So me saying I feel bad for family and friend of those that died is NOT HONEST and that I am just a lemming that blindly follows what society tells me??? Why is Speaks posts honest but mine or the others NOT? Complete BS!!!

Captain_Jack wrote:I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.

I understand that you dont feel his comments deserved a ban and I respect that, however he was banned because we told him we did not want that on the board, but he purposely did it again, and ti even a greater extreme. The issue the caused the warning is irrelevant at this time... he was warned and he knew the consequences but chose to do it again. Like a grown up, he has to deal with the consequences. I am sure he understands that.

But we in America are socially conditioned to feel bad when people die. Other civilizations believe that death is a natural part of life and instead of grieving they celebrate passage into afterlife. So yes it is 100% a social construction to feel bad when people die, that is the way our society works. It is not the way every society works. 99% of our feelings and our emotions are created through social construction. It is so deeply embedded in our culture that it seems "natural" however it is not necessarily any more natural than throwing a party and celebrating a person going on to heaven or wherever you think they go. Indications would actually show that indifference is closer to our natural reaction to death, because in free civilizations without mandated social customs, death was just another thing that happened on a daily basis and people did not grieve.

I don't have a problem with Speak being banned for not listening to what you asked him. I just also don't have a problem with what he said because I don't see why we should all have to grieve or feel bad for people we've never heard of until now. Death is a part of life.

again capt, you are generalizing the discussion to fit your argument. I understand that different cultures have different feelings and perceptions of what death means. But since when are we just having a discussion on someone dying?????

We are talking about the cold blooded murder of 4 people. Name me one culture that the relatives throw a party because their loved one was innocently murdered?

Yes, if I am reading the paper and I come across the obituarys and see someone died of a natural death, I generally do not have an emotional response.

But if I read a story where a child was kidnapped, raped, killed, and dumped in a field, I feel TERRIBLE!!! It affects me. I dont want to hear any crap about being socially conditioned. I call bullshit on that.

Damn my lack of computer functionality... i would of wanted to join in on this debate.

Ok, some opinions on what was said between Capt and Bada. I'll take the middle road

Capt J: in this issue, i'm in sort of agreement with you, that a ban might have been too much. However, his repeated comments of stating something is unacceptable. IMO, an appropriate thing would be a suspension of sorts (is this possible?) or even just making him talk to him. PLUS, there is inconsistency in this board, allowing some comments to slide, while others not. You can make a case for worse comments being said that were not even deleted, and received far greater criticism in the past. So in this case, i do sympathize with Speak (and even like bigs, i got to know him a little through the board, so i know where he is coming from).

What i absolutely disagree with you is your comment of assuming that speak has every right to feel that all cops are bad. NO! everyone always deserves benefit of the doubt. Unless proven otherwise, everyone deserves a fair and equal chance for everything. This includes a fair trial, respect on the street, etc.

Bada
I agree with your rationale of social construct. But not everyone has had life experiences or even was raised to feel certain types of emotions. Speaks scenario is much different than what unraveled with SF for example. One was purposely attempting to discriminate and make horrific statements, while Speak seems genuine on his opinion from what he was educated for his experience. The goal needs to educate people away from the falsified stereotypes. Instead of a quick fix (ala ban) we can maybe help him out or others. Isn't that the goal of a community? Obviously, is someone ignores this repeatedly, then we can further actions, but this was a session of what a couple hours based on 3 comments? I think we could have given him a bit more time, and maybe someone could have stepped in to personally help him. I wish i did, he's a bright dude.

oh well, now i'm really done with this thread

Mr. Crackerz wrote:Bada
I agree with your rationale of social construct. But not everyone has had life experiences or even was raised to feel certain types of emotions. Speaks scenario is much different than what unraveled with SF for example. One was purposely attempting to discriminate and make horrific statements, while Speak seems genuine on his opinion from what he was educated for his experience. The goal needs to educate people away from the falsified stereotypes. Instead of a quick fix (ala ban) we can maybe help him out or others. Isn't that the goal of a community? Obviously, is someone ignores this repeatedly, then we can further actions, but this was a session of what a couple hours based on 3 comments? I think we could have given him a bit more time, and maybe someone could have stepped in to personally help him. I wish i did, he's a bright dude.

oh well, now i'm really done with this thread

Again, he was NOT banned for his opinion that all cops are bad. He (and everyone else) is free to have that debate... just like it WAS debated in the BART shooting thread. I certainly do not agree AT ALL to the statement but we have no problems with discussions on this board of unpopular opinions. That is totally fined.

He was banned because he defied his warning despite him knowing full well what the repricussions were.

You may think there are inconsistencies on the board and I wont fight you on that. We are not a dictatorship and the mods and hobbes dont always see to eye on things so some of us may get overruled at times. A lot of discussion goes on in the private mod forum.

However I personally have always been consistent that I will ban someone if they openly defy a mods official warning to stop the behavior.

bada wrote:

Mr. Crackerz wrote:Bada
I agree with your rationale of social construct. But not everyone has had life experiences or even was raised to feel certain types of emotions. Speaks scenario is much different than what unraveled with SF for example. One was purposely attempting to discriminate and make horrific statements, while Speak seems genuine on his opinion from what he was educated for his experience. The goal needs to educate people away from the falsified stereotypes. Instead of a quick fix (ala ban) we can maybe help him out or others. Isn't that the goal of a community? Obviously, is someone ignores this repeatedly, then we can further actions, but this was a session of what a couple hours based on 3 comments? I think we could have given him a bit more time, and maybe someone could have stepped in to personally help him. I wish i did, he's a bright dude.

oh well, now i'm really done with this thread

Again, he was NOT banned for his opinion that all cops are bad. He (and everyone else) is free to have that debate... just like it WAS debated in the BART shooting thread. I certainly do not agree AT ALL to the statement but we have no problems with discussions on this board of unpopular opinions. That is totally fined.

He was banned because he defied his warning despite him knowing full well what the repricussions were.

You may think there are inconsistencies on the board and I wont fight you on that. We are not a dictatorship and the mods and hobbes dont always see to eye on things so some of us may get overruled at times. A lot of discussion goes on in the private mod forum.

However I personally have always been consistent that I will ban someone if they openly defy a mods official warning to stop the behavior.

Also, regarding those inconsistencies, I don't see it that way. This ban was because a member was celebrating the random killing of 4 human beings. It's the first time something so extreme happens in this board, and we've reacted the best we could. Actually, I (and this is a personal opinion) happen to think that no warning should be given under those circumstances. An inmediate ban should be the answer to such a post.

TMC wrote:
Also, regarding those inconsistencies, I don't see it that way. This ban was because a member was celebrating the random killing of 4 human beings. It's the first time something so extreme happens in this board, and we've reacted the best we could. Actually, I (and this is a personal opinion) happen to think that no warning should be given under those circumstances. An inmediate ban should be the answer to such a post.

I guess I am the more easy going teddy bear of the group! LOL

bada wrote:

TMC wrote:
Also, regarding those inconsistencies, I don't see it that way. This ban was because a member was celebrating the random killing of 4 human beings. It's the first time something so extreme happens in this board, and we've reacted the best we could. Actually, I (and this is a personal opinion) happen to think that no warning should be given under those circumstances. An inmediate ban should be the answer to such a post.

I guess I am the more easy going teddy bear of the group! LOL

The teddy bear mod!!!

I just think that is sucks that this thread turned into whether or not speak should have been banned, that's not the topic at hand.

One last point about Cap's point, the whole socially conditioned thing... doesn't it work the other way around as well? all these cultures that are "socially conditioned" to believe there is an afterlife so death should not be worrysome. Isn't that the same bullshit? just askin. I know i know, i complained about being off topic and went there myself.

RobDIKUM wrote:I just think that is sucks that this thread turned into whether or not speak should have been banned, that's not the topic at hand.

One last point about Cap's point, the whole socially conditioned thing... doesn't it work the other way around as well? all these cultures that are "socially conditioned" to believe there is an afterlife so death should not be worrysome. Isn't that the same bullshit? just askin. I know i know, i complained about being off topic and went there myself.

Yep it is, that's why I said that most likely our natural reaction is indifference because records would indicate that most ancient people treated death as a daily occurrence and did not react strongly one way or another. My example of people celebrating death was just to demonstrate that there were multiple ways of facing this issue and that those different ways are socially accepted in various cultures.

Captain_Jack wrote:

RobDIKUM wrote:I just think that is sucks that this thread turned into whether or not speak should have been banned, that's not the topic at hand.

One last point about Cap's point, the whole socially conditioned thing... doesn't it work the other way around as well? all these cultures that are "socially conditioned" to believe there is an afterlife so death should not be worrysome. Isn't that the same bullshit? just askin. I know i know, i complained about being off topic and went there myself.

Yep it is, that's why I said that most likely our natural reaction is indifference because records would indicate that most ancient people treated death as a daily occurrence and did not react strongly one way or another. My example of people celebrating death was just to demonstrate that there were multiple ways of facing this issue and that those different ways are socially accepted in various cultures.

ok well good explanation. I don't agree. but thanks for pointing it out.

Eh, regarding Cap's exposition, don't get me wrong... from what I posted, it may look that I consider it as... well, bullsh*t. Far from it, I think it's a fascinating topic, and one well worth it's own thread.

Just don't think it's related in any way to what we're dealing with here.

I'm sad to see Speak go. He was a good community member.

I respect that the mods have to make these calls from time to time. It can't be easy.

I'm sad as well. He gave me a lot of insight on the underground hip-hop game that I didn't already know. But what's done is done. You can't just let someone praise the deaths when those four didn't deserve it. Hell, no one deserves to die like that.