4 Oakland Police Officers and Suspect Shot

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:46 am
saintdee wrote:
bigstrads wrote:
bada wrote:and Bigs, he DID have time to explain himself (either to me via PM or in a post) AFTER I deleted his original post 10 hours earlier or after my warning. But instead he posted an EVEN more inlamatory post, taunted me a little bit, AND changed his signature picture to a picture of a cop mourning the loss of a friend and co-worker.

There was no apology or explanation given but he DID have that chance. He just chose not to take it.


Cool man.

You know Im not arguing why he was banned, in terms of what was said..........its just that it was Speak, and from how Ive got to know him over his time here, it seemed very out of character to be THAT evil.

So I was a little shocked and concerned really but again, I understand why he had to go for that.


not that out of character. if you read what he said in the bart shooting thread you'd have known how he feels about the oakland pd


Well, considering I did read what he wrote in that thread, and I posted some similar things to him...........plus I know the guy a little..............I think Im safe to say what I said and not be told "youd know how he feels"
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:00 am
migya wrote:
Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.



True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings


great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3pIsA0Q ... re=related

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:23 pm
Jackattack wrote:
migya wrote:
Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.



True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings


great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"


I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.

You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.

could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:45 pm
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -oakl.html

so the shooter is now also linked to a rape case tied by dna evidence.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:01 pm
saintdee wrote:
Jackattack wrote:
migya wrote:
Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.



True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings


great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"


I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.

You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.

could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.


read the bold (above and way above) before saying I'm making excuses for the this guy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3pIsA0Q ... re=related

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:22 pm
This was a very unfortunate situation. Senseless loss of multiple lives. I am no lover of the police or any authorities for that matter, but the mocking of these deaths on this board was horrible. I will miss Speak, he was a really good poster, had many entertaining takes as well as informative....but there are times when you just have to hold your tongue....or your keys in this case.

For those wanting Speak to come back, Im sure he will not. If he does, he will not be himself. He will always feel as though he has to censor himself and in that case, we will not be getting Speak back anyway.

Hobbes, Bada, TMC, Xbay, I would not have wanted to be in your position to have to get rid of a well respected board member, but you all did the right thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:41 pm
Jackattack wrote:
saintdee wrote:
Jackattack wrote:
migya wrote:
Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.



True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings


great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"


I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.

You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.

could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.


read the bold (above and way above) before saying I'm making excuses for the this guy...


you might have said you're not making excuses for him explicitly but look at what you wrote and tell me what you're saying isn't a excuse.

In my mind this is a very black and white issue. You either think he's guilty as a cold blooded murderer who deserves no sympathy.

Or

He's innocent because it was the police's fault.

No one forced him to pull the trigger. No one forced him to kill people except himself. Blaming society for personal problems is the weakest excuse ever. The economy is bad so you gotta rob people? Tough luck everyone is in the same economy but not all of us have to go out and rob people. Live in danger of police abuse everyday? so what we all live with police everyday. We all have to take responsibility as adults for the choices we make in life and not try to shift the blame or else we'll end up with more tragedy like this..its too easy to blame "the man" for everything and justify whatever action you take.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:42 pm
do you agree that we are physical creatures?
do you agree that physical laws apply everywhere (at least near us?
if yes, i would not be so assured that you can blame anyone for not using their free will to act in a moral way.
or put it this way, if you were the same person (who came to do damage to other persons) with the same complete history and genes, what thing is there that would stop you from acting like he did?
where is 'free will' and how one can use it or not use it?
it is a tragedy, but not in any supposed moral way, it's very human tragedy in the sense that there will always be ABSURD events, with ABSURD consequences and there will never be the RIGHT way to deal with such things.
unless you put people under extreme control (birth included) and delete/destroy the ones with higher possibility of doing things society doesn't want them to do. and even then, where would you draw the line?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:02 pm
saintdee wrote:
Jackattack wrote:
migya wrote:
Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.



True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.

When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.

I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.

Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.

The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings


great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.

as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"


I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.

You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.

could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.



Maybe that BART did have a history with black males, maybe having had bad experiences, being abused in someway, maybe on more than one occassion. If so, he shouldn't have been a cop in an area with alot of black males, plain and simple. Police, to do their job properly, have to be impartial and not be quick to judge. It is different as police have authority and powers and that comes with responsibility, conditions. I'm not saying it is double standards and that police's history should also be researched and taken into account in a trial.

As I said, it is all about communications being open and honest and both people and police (as well as between all people of all ethnic backgorunds) not judging, especially so quickly, as that causes unease and dislike
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:12 pm
Sorry to take an unpopular stance, but everyone keeps saying Speak shouldn't generalize that all cops are bad. As far as I'm concerned you all are generalizing by saying all cops should be considered to be good people.

Personally I will not grieve for people that I do not know simply because they have a job that is socially perceived as "noble". Especially when there is well documented, widespread, corruption included in that job, particularly in Oakland.

Speak has just as much of a right to assume the officers were crooked as you do to assume they were good people. I do not agree with his celebrating their deaths, but banning him simply because he doesn't comply to your socially constructed opinion is over the top as far as I'm concerned.

Jon Stewart Mill wrote that by silencing others opinions we are claiming our own infallibility. Since no person is infallible we have no right to silence others. That said, as I've previously stated on this board, this is a privately owned board and you have every right to ban people or censor them however you want. I just wanted to state my opinion. That's all.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:01 pm
Captain_Jack wrote:Speak has just as much of a right to assume the officers were crooked as you do to assume they were good people.


Agreed. And NEVER had an issue with that. I dont agree with it but I never had a problem with that. Speak talked about this in great length in the BART shooting thread. He was not banned/warned for having this against the grain opinion.

Captain_Jack wrote:I do not agree with his celebrating their deaths, but banning him simply because he doesn't comply to your socially constructed opinion is over the top as far as I'm concerned.

Wrong! He was NOT banned for a contrarian opinion. He was banned for CELEBRATING the death of 4 humans and then doing it again after he was warned not to. You are confusing the issue here Capt.

The first post that I deleted were 4 HUGE pictures of champagne bottles being popped in celebration. Very poor taste as even you admit.

I then warned him not to post that type of stuff again and that he could PM me or the other mods to discuss. But he then AGAIN made a post CELEBRATING the deaths of 4 human beings, taunted me a bit in his post, and changed his signature to a picture of a cop mourning the loss of a friend and coleague. This goes WAY beyond having a different "opinion".

Bottom line is our local community lost 4 PEOPLE in a tragic manner. Like I said before, it is very likely that these officers have family and or friends that read this board. I am sorry but I personally dont want to have my name tied to comments that are so filled with hate.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:24 pm
bada wrote:
Captain_Jack wrote:Speak has just as much of a right to assume the officers were crooked as you do to assume they were good people.


Agreed. And NEVER had an issue with that. I dont agree with it but I never had a problem with that. Speak talked about this in great length in the BART shooting thread. He was not banned/warned for having this against the grain opinion.

Captain_Jack wrote:I do not agree with his celebrating their deaths, but banning him simply because he doesn't comply to your socially constructed opinion is over the top as far as I'm concerned.

Wrong! He was NOT banned for a contrarian opinion. He was banned for CELEBRATING the death of 4 humans and then doing it again after he was warned not to. You are confusing the issue here Capt.

The first post that I deleted were 4 HUGE pictures of champagne bottles being popped in celebration. Very poor taste as even you admit.

I then warned him not to post that type of stuff again and that he could PM me or the other mods to discuss. But he then AGAIN made a post CELEBRATING the deaths of 4 human beings, taunted me a bit in his post, and changed his signature to a picture of a cop mourning the loss of a friend and coleague. This goes WAY beyond having a different "opinion".

Bottom line is our local community lost 4 PEOPLE in a tragic manner. Like I said before, it is very likely that these officers have family and or friends that read this board. I am sorry but I personally dont want to have my name tied to comments that are so filled with hate.


But that is exactly my point, I understand that he was celebrating and I agree that it was in poor taste, however if this was 4 gang members no one would have ever thought to ban Speak for those comments, people may have still thought them to be distasteful, but it wouldn't have become a big deal and I know there are other people on this board that would have agreed with him (it also probably wouldn't have even been a news story). It IS a difference of opinion, a big one, but still a difference of opinion.

That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them. I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:37 pm
Captain_Jack wrote:That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

Complete and utter garbage. How is my comments of saying my thoughts are with the family of those that have died "biased". Having compassion for my fellow human beings is NOT a "socially constructed" opinion. It is called being a human being... there is nothing biased about it. I feel terrible when people die, whether they are cops or gang bangers in your example

Captain_Jack wrote:I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them.
So me saying I feel bad for family and friend of those that died is NOT HONEST and that I am just a lemming that blindly follows what society tells me??? Why is Speaks posts honest but mine or the others NOT? Complete BS!!!

Captain_Jack wrote:I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.


I understand that you dont feel his comments deserved a ban and I respect that, however he was banned because we told him we did not want that on the board, but he purposely did it again, and ti even a greater extreme. The issue the caused the warning is irrelevant at this time... he was warned and he knew the consequences but chose to do it again. Like a grown up, he has to deal with the consequences. I am sure he understands that.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:50 pm
Captain_Jack wrote:But that is exactly my point, I understand that he was celebrating and I agree that it was in poor taste, however if this was 4 gang members no one would have ever thought to ban Speak for those comments, people may have still thought them to be distasteful, but it wouldn't have become a big deal and I know there are other people on this board that would have agreed with him (it also probably wouldn't have even been a news story). It IS a difference of opinion, a big one, but still a difference of opinion.

That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them. I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.



I like your expanded point of view, not many people step right back and look at things like that. The gang members example is a good one and it all comes down to what the gang members, police or whoever the individuals that are killed or acted against are like; what their attitudes are in general and moreso what actions and violations they have done.

I also understand what Bada said and this is hobbes' forum and he sets the boundaries and they are not bad ones at all, less freedom restricting than other forums are. Speak said what he saiD, HE WAS THEN TOLD NOT TO AND TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION IF HE WANTED. He didn't and made another post similar to the one he was told not to do something similar again.

Again, open and honest communication is the best thing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:54 pm
bada wrote:
Captain_Jack wrote:That is just my opinion. I think Speak went over the top with his comments, however I also think all of the people grieving for men they didn't know simply because of the job they conducted are over the top. So from my point of view your comments are just as biased and one sided as Speak's. However it is SOCIALLY acceptable to make those comments and not considered acceptable to celebrate death, which is why I called it a "socially constructed" opinion.

Complete and utter garbage. How is my comments of saying my thoughts are with the family of those that have died "biased". Having compassion for my fellow human beings is NOT a "socially constructed" opinion. It is called being a human being... there is nothing biased about it. I feel terrible when people die, whether they are cops or gang bangers in your example

Captain_Jack wrote:I personally would rather have someone be honest about their opinion than have someone act/speak a certain way because of what society tells them.
So me saying I feel bad for family and friend of those that died is NOT HONEST and that I am just a lemming that blindly follows what society tells me??? Why is Speaks posts honest but mine or the others NOT? Complete BS!!!

Captain_Jack wrote:I am not in any way agreeing with Speak, but I like that he was honest about his opinion. I also think you had every right to delete his post and even ban him, because as I said this is a privately owned board you can do what you want with it. I was just trying to point out that I disagreed with the decision and give my point of view on it. Nothing more.


I understand that you dont feel his comments deserved a ban and I respect that, however he was banned because we told him we did not want that on the board, but he purposely did it again, and ti even a greater extreme. The issue the caused the warning is irrelevant at this time... he was warned and he knew the consequences but chose to do it again. Like a grown up, he has to deal with the consequences. I am sure he understands that.


But we in America are socially conditioned to feel bad when people die. Other civilizations believe that death is a natural part of life and instead of grieving they celebrate passage into afterlife. So yes it is 100% a social construction to feel bad when people die, that is the way our society works. It is not the way every society works. 99% of our feelings and our emotions are created through social construction. It is so deeply embedded in our culture that it seems "natural" however it is not necessarily any more natural than throwing a party and celebrating a person going on to heaven or wherever you think they go. Indications would actually show that indifference is closer to our natural reaction to death, because in free civilizations without mandated social customs, death was just another thing that happened on a daily basis and people did not grieve.

I don't have a problem with Speak being banned for not listening to what you asked him. I just also don't have a problem with what he said because I don't see why we should all have to grieve or feel bad for people we've never heard of until now. Death is a part of life.
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