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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:04 pm
I'm thinking one, possibly two steps ahead.

OK maybe this is silly to talk about now, however, we have already brought it up in a few threads:

- assuming in the not-too-distant future we trade Al for a Legit PG (Hinrich/felton?), what do we do with three starting swing men (Monta, Mags, and Jax)?

not only would it be a waste of money, but one of the three would be very unhappy with coming off the bench. assuming Monta is able to make a full comeback, I say the Warriors should ship one of them to a team that needs a starting guard, for a back up wingman (young guy with potential) and a first round pick.

soo....

Stephen Jackson for Marvin Williams OR Travis Outlaw and a first round pick.

which is better: Outlaw, Williams, [someone else] or neither?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:55 pm
first off wrote:I'm thinking one, possibly two steps ahead.

OK maybe this is silly to talk about now, however, we have already brought it up in a few threads:

- assuming in the not-too-distant future we trade Al for a Legit PG (Hinrich/felton?), what do we do with three starting swing men (Monta, Mags, and Jax)?

not only would it be a waste of money, but one of the three would be very unhappy with coming off the bench. assuming Monta is able to make a full comeback, I say the Warriors should ship one of them to a team that needs a starting guard, for a back up wingman (young guy with potential) and a first round pick.

soo....

Stephen Jackson for Marvin Williams OR Travis Outlaw and a first round pick.

which is better: Outlaw, Williams, [someone else] or neither?


haha, jeez first off, u need to stop saying the hurt feelings line. As long as Nellie is the coach, he will start all 4 of them. He's had jackson at the 3 spot before, he can do it again. Maggette can play 4. And then rotate them off the bench so there 3 at a time... like a carosel. The Warriors need a PG. DeMarcus is my boy, but not good enough to be a starter if we want to stay in contention.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:08 am
Ive been saying it for awhile now, and people have given me lots of answers.........but Im not buying it.

What Ive been saying is that we simply CANT trade for a legit PG!!!

Because, as you say also, there is no way that Mags/S-Jax/Monta would be happy coming off the bench..........and whoever it is coming into a team with no real PG, is not going to be happy to come off the bench either.

And if you think that a lineup with Mags at the PF, S-Jax at SF, Monta at SG and the new PG is going cut it.............then you are mistaken unfortunately.

There isnt a PG that we could acquire that would make that lineup work............so, basically, we are f*cked, and this is what happens when you try and replace a top 5 PG with a SG whos never played there in his pro career (and then gets injured of course)

We need a real big man more than we need a PG, not just because it wouldnt work with the rotation of our existing players but how many teams in the league have similar/not very creative PG's who simply are in charge of bringing the ball up the floor to good big men/other players?

Anthony Carter/Steve Blake/Chris Duhon/Rajon Rondo to name but a few.............none of them are real creative PG's or average many assists.

Al needs to go for someone who we can rely on in the post, for when Mags and S-Jax are shooting there usual horrible percentages, and our offense is at a stand still anyway............we need someone to dump it into, to draw a double team, kick out, get better shots.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:33 am
i just dont think Al is that valued right now. I don't think Chicago would offer Heinrich, i don't think the cats would offer Felton.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:39 am
bigstrads wrote:What Ive been saying is that we simply CANT trade for a legit PG!!!

Because, as you say also, there is no way that Mags/S-Jax/Monta would be happy coming off the bench..........and whoever it is coming into a team with no real PG, is not going to be happy to come off the bench either.


I still don't know why you keep saying so, Bigs. That's totally wrong. We can trade for a PG a lot easier than we can for a PF. One of those guys will have to come from the bench, and they can't complain about it because they're not running the team. They're just playing for it, in whatever role they may have. It's as easy as that.


Two problems, tho... In case Al goes for a PG, I wouldn't be surprised if Nellie decides to start S-Jax at PF. Seriously.

Also, the biggest problem when it comes to trades is that we don't know in which direction the team is going. I mean, we don't know who's making the moves, considering Mullin's uncertain status with the team.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:26 am
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:What Ive been saying is that we simply CANT trade for a legit PG!!!

Because, as you say also, there is no way that Mags/S-Jax/Monta would be happy coming off the bench..........and whoever it is coming into a team with no real PG, is not going to be happy to come off the bench either.


I still don't know why you keep saying so, Bigs. That's totally wrong. We can trade for a PG a lot easier than we can for a PF. One of those guys will have to come from the bench, and they can't complain about it because they're not running the team. They're just playing for it, in whatever role they may have. It's as easy as that.


Two problems, tho... In case Al goes for a PG, I wouldn't be surprised if Nellie decides to start S-Jax at PF. Seriously.

Also, the biggest problem when it comes to trades is that we don't know in which direction the team is going. I mean, we don't know who's making the moves, considering Mullin's uncertain status with the team.


I keep saying it and Ill keep sticking by it because, as you say, players HAVE to do what they are told............but they dont have to like it.

An unhappy player, one who feels hes being undervalued, is worse than not having that player at all.

1 - Mags in LA used to come off the bench, that was when he handed in his trade requests to them and he was constantly involved in rumours.

2 - S-Jax thinks he is the franchise player, so would not be happy about coming off the bench.

3 - Monta IS the franchise player, so there is no way he should come off the bench.

4 - New PG..........its debatable, if he is told the realises this situation, then whoever it is could accept a non-starters role............but we will still be stuck with strange lineups that dont work without a real PG for large periods of time.

For me, we have to unload one of the existing three starting SG's/SF's, to fit a good PG in.............and who would want Mags contract? who would want S-Jax's soon to be contract, and Monta CANT go anywhere.

Who knows, Monta could come back full steam and absolutely prove all our worries wrong...........but until then, we are stuck with this, and if he doesnt do that, we are still stuck with it.

Ohh and the S-Jax PF thing, I would think hed go with Mags instead, being stronger and more built for it than S-Jax.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:43 am
I could care less what Jax thinks he is.

I dont think coming off the bench is necessarily a demotion. You can sell it to him that his versatility as a 6th man gives them so many options and makes them a better team. He will still get starter minutes and still be in the game in the 4th quarter.

If he put himself ahead of the team then ship his ass out of here as I dont want any players like that on the team.

Anyone watching the warriors sees that we need a floor leader. We have NO ball movement right now. Acquiring a legit PG is the BIGGEST need we have. Jax still starts until Monta comes back and then he moves to the bench where he can be a powerful and flexible weapon to our team.

We would be a MUCH better team than we are now. If Jax cant get behind that, then no point having him on the team.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:41 pm
bada wrote:I could care less what Jax thinks he is.

I dont think coming off the bench is necessarily a demotion. You can sell it to him that his versatility as a 6th man gives them so many options and makes them a better team. He will still get starter minutes and still be in the game in the 4th quarter.

If he put himself ahead of the team then ship his ass out of here as I dont want any players like that on the team.

Anyone watching the warriors sees that we need a floor leader. We have NO ball movement right now. Acquiring a legit PG is the BIGGEST need we have. Jax still starts until Monta comes back and then he moves to the bench where he can be a powerful and flexible weapon to our team.

We would be a MUCH better team than we are now. If Jax cant get behind that, then no point having him on the team.


Exactly. After that post, I've got nothing to add to this topic. Well done, Bada. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:58 pm
bada wrote:I could care less what Jax thinks he is.

I dont think coming off the bench is necessarily a demotion. You can sell it to him that his versatility as a 6th man gives them so many options and makes them a better team. He will still get starter minutes and still be in the game in the 4th quarter.

If he put himself ahead of the team then ship his ass out of here as I dont want any players like that on the team.

Anyone watching the warriors sees that we need a floor leader. We have NO ball movement right now. Acquiring a legit PG is the BIGGEST need we have. Jax still starts until Monta comes back and then he moves to the bench where he can be a powerful and flexible weapon to our team.

We would be a MUCH better team than we are now. If Jax cant get behind that, then no point having him on the team.


Even if we DO move him to the bench, theres already AR and Buike (who could make a running for 6th man this year) already ON the bench.

So thus, it goes back to the "Should we extend Jack" discussion.

If we DO trade for a PG, then NO, we do not need to extend him.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:04 pm
Actually YES, we SHOULD trade for a PG..

How about Marcus Williams and Maggette for Baron?

It's not like Baron is going to make the Clips better. I'm sure he'll make us 10x better.



...but of course, the chance of that happening is -55%.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:45 pm
Yeah, we're in dire need of a PG. The question is... do we panic and get a real PG to run the offense? Or do we wait and see what Monta will bring?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:54 pm
If a player like Al is unhappy just playing out of position, I doubt any of the 3 starting swingmen (Monta, Mags, and Jax) will be happy playing the position of bench warmer. Ship Jackson to a team that's trying to go some where like Portland or Atlanta. he's inevitably going to be frustrated with his role as second string.

I think regardless of the short time left on his contract, or his bad boy image, a player that can put up 20 a night, can rack up the assists, and plays good D is valuable in the NBA.

regarding the Maggs at PF scenario - he's 6'6" and he has a hard enough time on defense as it is! don't be ridiculous. and don't think Jax would be happy there either. maybe once in a while these guys can flirt with the PF pos, but not all the time.

Honestly, I would send off jax just to give rookies the play time they need NOW. The longer they wait on the bench, the closer they get to that fat 2nd NBA contract with just hype from their college years holding them up. I'd personally like to see what they got before we have to decide whether to resign them or not. They're never going to get in the game or get some shots as long as jax is around (esp if he is the first/only one off the bench). Nelly loves jax. they probably spoon together after every game.

If F.O. was in charge of the FO, I'd do this:
3 team trade, early next year (january), after we are sure Monta can play like he used to.

Golden State
Stephen Jackson -> Portland
Al Harrington -> Chicago
Marcus Williams -> Portland

Portland
Channing Frye -> Golden State
Steve Blake -> Chicago
Travis Outlaw -> Golden State

Chicago
Joakim Noah -> Portland
Kirk Hinrich -> Golden State

Golden State

Kirk Hinrich/CJ Watson/Nelson
Monta Ellis / Kelenna Azubuike/ Marco Belinelli/ Anthony Morrow
Corey Maggette/ Travis Outlaw/Anthony Randolph
Brandon Wright/ Channing Frye / Rob Kurz
Biedrins/ Turiaf / Richard Hendrix

Portland

Jerryd Bayless/ Sergio Rodriguez / Marcus Williams
Brandon Roy/ Rudy Fernandez
Stephen Jackson / Nicolas Batum / Martell Webster
LaMarcus Aldridge / Jokaim Noah / Ike Diogu
Greg Oden / Joel Pyrzbilla / Shavlik Randolph/ Raef LaFrentz

Chicago

Derrick Rose / Steve Blake
Thabo Sefolosha/ Ben Gordon/ Larry Hughes
Luol Deng/ Andres Nocioni/ Demetris Nichols
Al Harrington/ Tyrus Thomas/ Michael Ruffin/ Cedric Simmons
Drew Gooden/ Arron Gray

Pros:
-GSW gets a PG for their young, and now severely inexperienced team. I'd rather pick up Felton, but if it's Hinrich or no deal.... well, I'm not completely crazy.

-there is no bunch up at the starting 2/3 pos for GSW

-Portland still has a bunch of cash, the hole in their team (SF) is filled, they gain much needed experience, and Jackson is off the books in 2010 just in time for the amazing FA season (check http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-09-10 if you don't know)

-additionally, Portland changes Frye, who they'd have to sign for a much higher price next year, for Noah - a guy who also has a lot of potential, but is still on a rookie salary until 2010 (big FA year).

- Portland gets a third string back-up PG, because even though Jerryd Bayless looks like he will impress, I don't think Bayless and Rodriguez is enough to lock down that position.

-I know a lot of ppl don't like Outlaw, but I do. Guys got quickness, great size and leaping ability; he's not going to make any one else better, but can be a big spark off the bench offensively. Azu and Outlaw would make a great second unit scoring tandem.

-Chicago gets just what they need: a lower price, but good back up PG. I think they had no idea they'd be able to draft a guy like Derrick Rose when they signed Hinrich for 10Mill. Warriors can't give them that legit back-up (I like CJ staying with us), so Blake comes from Portland to solve the problem. it simultaneously gives Bayless some breathing room to really produce as a starter.

-As Al Harrington comes to the Bulls, they also get rid of Noah, who may have a good upside, but c'mon, who doesn't expect Tyrus Thomas to have a better one? Tyrus can't score well right now, so Bulls get much needed front court scoring with Al. I'm sure Harrington would be psyched to be with what looks like an all-star PG in the making, and a team that craves his scoring ability much more than the warriors. It's also an east coast team with an easier route to the playoffs (in case he has Elton Brand syndrome)

Cons:
- Portland is going to have an ass load of cash in the off season (bye, bye Raef and Stevie Francis BYC). should they want to spend for a free agent in 2009, there would be no point in acquiring Stephen Jackson to fill the SF hole.

- Portland would have to accept Noah, who I think got a bad rap last year, but most seem to disagree. Although, if Greg Oden and LaMarcus Alderidge both have success this year, there will be little reason to resign Frye (they have Joel Pyrzbilla who's a pretty solid back up to either position).

-Even though Turiaf could be brought in to guard beffy PFs occasionally, our main PFs are weak and inexperienced (poor D). Frye may be a good offensive big man (he can shoot OK), but he seems both mentally and physically weak right now. He's the "Marcus Williams" we are receiving back. I think he's too similar physically to BW. Plus he looks like he's twelve in a mug shot, lol.

-GSW is trading two vets and a bad bench player, for one vet and a two talented bench players. Isn't our team ridiculously young as is? we'd have to change our name to the Golden State Toddlers if this deal went down.

- I know what I'm going to hear from everybody... "Jax is too important to this team, he's worth a lot more to us than to any other team. he's the leader, he brings swagger...." yada, yada, heard it.

what do you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:45 am
first off wrote:what do you think?


In short, it works for Portland and us, but Chicago would be crazy to go for that trade.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:44 am
TMC wrote:
first off wrote:what do you think?


In short, it works for Portland and us, but Chicago would be crazy to go for that trade.


por que mi amigo?

Chicago can't fit Hinrich into a starting lineup. He's there second highest paid player on their roster! That'd be like us putting Al Harrington or Andris Biedrins on the bench!

Steve Blake is a right on the line between starting and back-up point. he's less than HALF the price of Hinrich. And lets compare last years performance figures:

Hinrich - $10,000,000/year for 4 years (decreasing slightly)
PPG - 11.5
APG - 6
RPG - 3.3
TOPG - 2.1
3pt% - 35%

Steve Blake - $4,590,000 for one more year.
PPG - 8.5
APG - 5.1
RPG - 2.4
TOPG - 1.4 (this is why I like him so much and would not mind if he joined our team!)
3pt% - 40.8%

Hard to argue that part of the big trade as a bad idea.

they ship Noah and get Al Harrington. We all know Al's going to be pumping up his numbers this year, so I'm sure he'll be more attractive in january than he is now.

Thomas and Gooden, what can I say, neither are known for their scoring. Thomas is an athletic freak. Gooden is a bruiser. They can rebound and maybe D up, but they need more shooters! They were last, LAST in FG% as a team - behind Miami, Clippers, and all those crappy teams. I'm sure they'd love someone who can force the other team to spread the floor like Al.

Yeah they could use a real starting center, but they can sign one in the offseason, after Gooden's contract is up


This all may be for nothing - Portland just offered Outlaw for Memphis' Connely :( . That trade doesn't make any sense at all though, why would Portland want another PG? they have 3! At least it shows Portland is willing to deal.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:19 am
first off wrote:por que mi amigo?


Basically, por que Al is playing like sh*t and I'm pretty sure Chicago can get a much better deal for Hinrich. It's not like they're forced to trade him right now. Just dangle him a bit and see who wants to trade for him.
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