Are Warriors better without David Lee?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:34 am
rockyBeli wrote:"David Lee for Amir Johnson, Kyle Lowry, and Tyler Hansbrough. Who says no?"

Any sane Warrior fan

Not smart to trade a top 10 PF for a bunch of backups. Remember, that's how we acquired Lee lol. So what's Anthony Randolph, Turiaf, and Azubuike up to these days? also can't stand Tyler Hansbrough. He'd be a bank teller if he wasn't born big and tall. Dude has zero basketball skills except playing the sport like it's football or running of the bull and hustling for rebs.



So beautifully said.

The best way for an aspiring contender to get better is to look for those cheap trades and/or FA pickups. As an example, if Toronto gets real desperate to trade Lowry, maybe the team can get him for Douglas and a future 2nd rounder. I'd take that.

Speights has been pretty awful, but he could be tradeable for another big. It is just looking for the right trade.

It's still early.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:57 am
After losing to Phoenix last night after leading by 22, Love sounded pretty upset and may well want out of there now, as there playoffs hopes are practically over.

I know I've said it before, but I mean it, I'd go for Love, especially if he says again that he's unhappy with the TWolves organisation. In fact, if I remember right, PGasol is a free agent after this season. He is past it at age 33 I think he is and if he'd want to come here, as Jermaine is likely going to retire, as good as he's been for us, it'd be great for something like 6 million a year, no more than two year contract. That would allow trading Lee and perhaps Speights and Crawford. I don't want to give Barnes and any other starter and wouldn't need to if Love asks to leave. Like other superstars in the past, such as Barkley (twice), Shaq and Dwight, superstars do not get you anywhere near equal value in return and Lee is better than most players that would be offered for Love.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:47 pm
The problem with pursuing a trade for an all-star, particularly someone of Love's caliber, is they'll want not only a Lee, but either a Barnes or Green + other good bench players. I'm not saying we shouldn't, but it's not realistic to think we could get away with anything less. At this point, I'd rather trade Barnes than Green though.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:26 pm
Don't think Minnesota will get better offers than Lee and two others off the bench excluding Barnes and DGreen, like Speights and Crawford, both who can score a bit. Love wants out of there and he might just demand a trade this offseason.

Barnes has been rather awful this season, but I still think his potential is way to good to quit on him now. I think he'll get it together soon, but yea, right now he has been a bit of a bust, though it has only been this season and he isn't even a top 4 option on the team. The way the roster is, he won't start and/or be a top 4 player for the team for the next two years or so and that doesn't really allow him opportunity to be a big time player in any way.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:59 am
migya wrote:Don't think Minnesota will get better offers than Lee and two others off the bench excluding Barnes and DGreen, like Speights and Crawford, both who can score a bit. Love wants out of there and he might just demand a trade this offseason.

Barnes has been rather awful this season, but I still think his potential is way to good to quit on him now. I think he'll get it together soon, but yea, right now he has been a bit of a bust, though it has only been this season and he isn't even a top 4 option on the team. The way the roster is, he won't start and/or be a top 4 player for the team for the next two years or so and that doesn't really allow him opportunity to be a big time player in any way.


In today's Mercury News, Tim Kawakami, makes the case for starting Draymond Green at power forward, and it makes sense: http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... more-22559

Draymond Green as the Warriors’ most important power forward? In some ways, it’s already probably happening
Posted on April 7, 2014 by Tim Kawakami
Draymond Green is healthy, starting at power forward recently in David Lee’s absence, and Green is playing very, very well–setting great screens, moving the ball, playing exceptional on-ball and help defense.

Which brings up the question: Is Green the Warriors’ best option at power forward going into the playoffs, whether or not Lee is fully healthy or not by then?

At the very least, I think Green is proving that he deserves (and has deserved) at least as many minutes as a healthy Lee in a tandem PF rotation and Green absolutely deserves the main PF minutes if Lee is at all dinged up and not 100%.

But we also know that the Warriors have based much of their last several seasons on the quite questionable conclusion that Lee is an incredible ALL-STAR!!! player–it took Mark Jackson months into this season to admit that Stephen Curry had jumped ahead of Lee as the team’s best player, which was about two or three years behind actuality.

Lee has been a big part of the Warriors’ rise to relevance, he can do a lot of things on offense, and he is the GSW favorite son–that’s absolutely one thing Joe Lacob and Jackson have agreed upon from Day 1. He’s protected, he’s cherished, his status is unchallenged. However…


Now that Lee is out indefinitely and the Warriors are finally getting a look at Green in a major role–and alongside Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala in the starting line-up (when those two guys are healthy)…

Well, things might be changing, because in real life you make adjustments when things happen in front of your eyes.

You can’t make playoff decisions based on how much you like a guy or the things he did in the past, you make them based on what will work best in a rough postseason series or two.
Green can guard good power forwards, he can guard good wings, Jackson even likes playing Green on very good point guards.

That’s different than what Lee gives the Warriors. Just a little.

By the way, last night I asked Bogut about the Bogut/Iguodala/Draymond front line, which has been rarely used this season until last night, when that was the starting group.
“Oh yeah, that’s our killer line-up,” Bogut said with a big smile.

To be ultra-clear, this was part of a general discussion about defense and Bogut meant “killer line-up” in that context–as in killer defensive unit.

Which it is. Beyond doubt. And with Curry and Thompson criss-crossing through the wing areas and getting great screens, and with Green’s ability to challenge defenses with his passes and dives to the hoop… that is a very intriguing OFFENSIVE line-up, too.

Some questions there, but still intriguing on offense and great on defense.

–Last night I told Ethan Sherwood Strauss that maybe Boris Diaw’s pass-cut-pass-shoot work with the Spurs is a decent offensive comparison to what Green might do for the Warriors offensively… and ESS did not immediately shoot that down, so I might stick with it for a while.

And that grouping doesn’t include Lee, who is not a great defensive player or even a good one, especially on the rotations in the paint or out to the three-point line. Plus, Lee isn’t as great offensively as many of his fans seem to think.

He works very well with Curry in the pick-and-roll and can score sometimes on the post, but when his mid-range jumper isn’t there (and it hasn’t been there most of this season), he’s frequently a drag on the Warriors’ Curry/Thompson offensive exploits.

[I know, uh oh, here we go again.]

Yep, it’s impossible to deny that any period of game-time that includes Bogut, Green and Iguodala banging into opponents and making great rotations and defending the rim… well, that’s going to be a very good defensive unit for the Warriors.

But even after starting last night and playing many minutes together, the Bogut/Green/Iguodala trio is one of the least played of all the Warriors’ main-rotation combinations.

As Grantland’s Zach Lowe points out, this specific starting line-up–those three plus Curry and Thompson–has only played 54 minutes together and is a sterling +22 as a unit in the plus/minus.

They need to play more together. They will play more, if Lee stays out for a while longer or even if he is back immediately. If that severely cuts into Lee’s playing time in the minutes, really, that’s not a huge issue.

And then if Green isn’t producing, the Warriors can always go back to Lee playing 35 minutes a game.

* I don’t think Jackson will put Lee on the bench when he’s healthy–the Warriors just worry so much about Lee’s feelings and they rightfully respect his points/rebounds tallies throughout his career and his attitude in the locker room.

But there’s an easy compromise: When Lee’s healthy, put him back into the starting line-up, but have Green ready to come in quickly–maybe after 3 or 4 minutes if things start off poorly for the Warriors, at the latest at the under 6 timeout.

That will make sure Green gets good minutes with Bogut and Iguodala early, and that can freshen Lee up to play long minutes as a post-distributor for the second unit late in the first and into the second quarter.

Then you stick with whatever works into the second half and especially to close out the game–Green, Lee, Jermaine O’Neal, whoever.

* By the way, Bogut is currently No. 2 in the league in defensive rating, Green is No. 5. (Joakim Noah is #1.)

One of the most amazing things about Bogut’s D-rating is that he’s done it playing so much with Lee, which I think Jackson does intentionally to make sure Bogut’s always there to defend the toughest post player and that frees Lee to just score, pass and rebound and stand next to DeAndre Jordan instead of actually guarding anybody.

An under-discussed thing is Bogut’s ability, for a large center, to defend some of the really good power forwards, which is often necessary when Lee is out there with him.

But if you play Bogut with Green for long stretches, which allows Bogut to be a little more free lance on defense when Green is tying up a good PF… lights out, I’d presume.
* Lee has missed 11 games so far this season: Five on the road, six at home.
-The Warriors are 8-3 when Lee has been out.

-They are 4-3 when Lee and Bogut were both out.

-They are 4-0 without Lee but WITH Bogut in the line-up. (One of these is the Memphis game when Bogut started but left after only 4 minutes and didn’t return.)

* The Warriors are 8-4 in games that Bogut has missed.

* In last season’s playoffs, the Warriors were 6-2 in games Lee did not play.

They were 2-4 in games he did play.

In playoff games he played 5 minutes or more, the Warriors were 1-3.

* I could be wrong, but I’m beginning to hear a little wiggle room in Jackson’s approach to the power forward situation. I’m sure part of that is due to his uncertainty about Lee’s status and what Lee might produce even when he’s back.

But I’ve asked Jackson questions about this issue for years now, and this is the most he’s pointed to a possible future with Green getting major minutes at PF, whether or not Lee is playing, too.

—MARK JACKSON post-game last night/

-Q: You haven’t played the Bogut-Green-Iguodala front line very much this season, and it has been noted that it’s potentially a great defensive group.

-JACKSON: I have not?

-Q: Not together. You started them and played them together a lot tonight; do you think you’ll do it more? Do you like seeing those three together now that you’ve seen it a little more?

-JACKSON: Yeah, I know what I get those guys. I think it’s just a question of the rotation. A lot of the season maybe Bogues was not 100% or getting close to 100%.

Obviously Andre wasn’t 100%, missed a bunch of games. So he was always… then there was a minute restriction with him.

I don’t need to see those guys, because they’re three big-time defenders, they’re three extremely high-IQ basketball players. So clearly we’re a very good basketball team with them on the floor.

And I’m sure we’re going to see a bunch of that.

-Q: Have you intentionally kept Bogut and Lee together on the floor, when they were healthy?

-JACKSON: No, I didn’t try to keep them together. I was just trying to stay healthy. If you think–Jermaine missed I don’t know how many games, close to 30 games, 20-something games… So you had to make a conscious effort of making sure how the rotation was going to be not having a back-up center for quite a while.

But that’s going to play itself out.

The thing I love about Draymond is he’s a big-time screen-setter. He creates openings because he constantly head hunts to get guys open, and then he dives to the hoop off of those screens.

And it makes us extremely difficult to defend. And then he’s unselfish. He’s a guy while he dives to the hoop or pops to the three-point line, he’s a play-maker out of that.

So it gives us a different weapon.

—Earlier, during pregame, I asked about Draymond Green maybe establishing himself as the main power forward whether or not Lee gets back soon…
-Q: Is it possible Draymond just becomes your starting power forward and you have to work David in around that?

-JACKSON: When David’s healthy?

-Q: If he’s out for much longer… does Draymond just become your starting power forward?

-JACKSON: David’s not playing, I’m fine with Draymond, I’m fine with Mo, I’m fine with Jermaine. We have options. We have versatility at that position.

Now obviously David is a proven guy that’s put together a body of work for a long time and he will be missed. But the show goes on. And we’ve got guys that have body of work themselves and they’ve been desperate for this type of situation and they embrace it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:00 pm
As much as I see the abilities Lee has and has had since arriving here, the numbers without him speak for themselves. That lineup with DGreen has a small sample spread it has to be noted, but definitely looks promising. Thing also is, is I recall right, that was against Utah a few days ago and if so, they are not a good team and somewhat tanking. That lineup, to be proven, has to perform against quality opposition, like at Portland in a few days.

Very nice things said about DGreen, he definitely does put the effort in and has improved over the last two seasons since arriving. If Lee is out for substantially more time, that lineup and DGreen will be able to be seen better. What that could allow, if successful, since Lee makes so much money, is the trading of Lee, not for another high paid player, be it Love or whoever, but perhaps for two players, two backups that could be used effectively. Since Jermaine is likely to retire after this season and Blake is a FA, maybe a trade fora backup PF/C and PG could be the best way to aim for.

Definitely nice to see the vastly improved defense and thus success of the team and that just shows the direction the team should continue to head towards, which may even lead real championship contention.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:29 am
The warriors still need Lee to make it past the first round. There was a report that Lee probably will miss the start of the playoffs. Nothing more specific than that. Spurs, Thunder and Clips are all superior rebounding teams, and without Lee, we are at a complete disadvantage.

Regardless of what happens, the West is so tough and more talented than ever (a statement I feel like I repeat each season). Its going to be tough to get by any playoff team.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:14 pm
The thing is that the team has great success without Lee, not only this season but in last season's playoffs. I think we may be better off without him, as DGreen is faster and more athletic, as well as being a better defender and having an outside shot. The rebounding is there, especially with Jermaine and Speights doing well with that recently.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:09 am
LOL tim kawakami will...not...give....up. The guy has despised Lee ever since he got to the Warriors (ahh the contract! :x ). Every time David Lee proved his worth, Tim would downplay it and concoct some 'grass is always greener' hypothetical scenario that was either 1. far fetched or 2. would leave the team with a worse player at PF. This is his latest flavor of the month to desperately justify his "David Lee sucks" out of date opinion.

Look, D. Green is a nice player. But a guy has to do it for longer than a few games as a starter, and vs quality teams. Lee's been doing it for years. Green adds more defense but we lose interior post scoring and rebounding. I think we still beat the Nuggets with Lee last year (Warriors were the better team) ...so I don't see that playoff win as some type of justification that we 'play better without Lee.' And vs the Spurs, the Warriors should've won those early games, but it took insanely on-fire games from Curry and Klay. The longer that series went on, the more it became apparent that the W's were a jump shooting team. And they were getting killed on the the offense glass. Lee will help with both of that with his defensive rebounding and post game as the playoffs become more half court offense orientated. I just think Lee has a unique value to this team because he can consistently get you points in the point or create for others at the PF position. Nice to have both for depth tho.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:52 am
I had read recently that the team is something like 8-2 without Lee this season. If so, that's very good without him and even though during a longer period, like half a season, it could be different, it is definitely a glaring, positive stat. That leads me to think that it is good that Lee is out apparently at least until the playoffs, because it will show what the team performed like without him for about ten straight games, when it was needed to win to stay in the playoffs. It will show just the worth Lee has to the team and if the team is still successful, Lee should really be looked to be traded this offseason, definitely the next one. It is the salary that he is on that makes it a factor to trade him, as someone on that much money should make an absolute positive difference to the team for winning and though I believe he does, it looks like he is replaceable.

The way I see it, since Jermaine is likely to retire, at least he apparently said as much a few months ago, and Blake is old himself and a FA this offseason, if Lee is to be traded, it should be for a PF that maybe starter material, but could be used off the bench, so DGreen can start, and also a PG that would be a good backup.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:58 pm
migya wrote:I had read recently that the team is something like 8-2 without Lee this season. If so, that's very good without him and even though during a longer period, like half a season, it could be different, it is definitely a glaring, positive stat. That leads me to think that it is good that Lee is out apparently at least until the playoffs, because it will show what the team performed like without him for about ten straight games, when it was needed to win to stay in the playoffs. It will show just the worth Lee has to the team and if the team is still successful, Lee should really be looked to be traded this offseason, definitely the next one. It is the salary that he is on that makes it a factor to trade him, as someone on that much money should make an absolute positive difference to the team for winning and though I believe he does, it looks like he is replaceable.

The way I see it, since Jermaine is likely to retire, at least he apparently said as much a few months ago, and Blake is old himself and a FA this offseason, if Lee is to be traded, it should be for a PF that maybe starter material, but could be used off the bench, so DGreen can start, and also a PG that would be a good backup.

I don't believe winning vs below .500 teams is any indicator of success - it then becomes completely irrelevant when compared to playoff basketball.

I do agree that we could find a better fit than Lee, particularly for the money, but he by no means makes this a worse team. How he’s being used might be a different story. I thought early on in his absence that this might be some sort of ploy to get guys like Green and Speights more minutes with the starting unit. Once I took off the tinfoil hat, I came to the realization that is complete nonsense, and not having Lee hurts us a lot if even it only comes to depth.

I believe Lee will be in a trade at some point in the next 1 ½ - 2 seasons, but not before mid-next season. Lee simply isn’t worth the $15 mil, maybe $11 or $12 mil, but that’s about it. His real value is going to be his expiring contract in 2 years.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:49 pm
JREED wrote:
migya wrote:I had read recently that the team is something like 8-2 without Lee this season. If so, that's very good without him and even though during a longer period, like half a season, it could be different, it is definitely a glaring, positive stat. That leads me to think that it is good that Lee is out apparently at least until the playoffs, because it will show what the team performed like without him for about ten straight games, when it was needed to win to stay in the playoffs. It will show just the worth Lee has to the team and if the team is still successful, Lee should really be looked to be traded this offseason, definitely the next one. It is the salary that he is on that makes it a factor to trade him, as someone on that much money should make an absolute positive difference to the team for winning and though I believe he does, it looks like he is replaceable.

The way I see it, since Jermaine is likely to retire, at least he apparently said as much a few months ago, and Blake is old himself and a FA this offseason, if Lee is to be traded, it should be for a PF that maybe starter material, but could be used off the bench, so DGreen can start, and also a PG that would be a good backup.

I don't believe winning vs below .500 teams is any indicator of success - it then becomes completely irrelevant when compared to playoff basketball.

I do agree that we could find a better fit than Lee, particularly for the money, but he by no means makes this a worse team. How he’s being used might be a different story. I thought early on in his absence that this might be some sort of ploy to get guys like Green and Speights more minutes with the starting unit. Once I took off the tinfoil hat, I came to the realization that is complete nonsense, and not having Lee hurts us a lot if even it only comes to depth.

I believe Lee will be in a trade at some point in the next 1 ½ - 2 seasons, but not before mid-next season. Lee simply isn’t worth the $15 mil, maybe $11 or $12 mil, but that’s about it. His real value is going to be his expiring contract in 2 years.



I think not this offseason but the next one will likely be when Lee will be traded, if he is at all, because he'll only have one year left on his contract then, making him an expirer at 15.5 million.

Point is that it is interesting that the team has performed quite well the last two seasons with out him. True that beating teams that are not in the playoffs and nowhere near 50% win/loss is not a real indication, but the team did beat Dallas in Dallas and the Mavs were desperate to win to make the playoffs. Against Portland will give better indication but the team also beat Memphis, also desperate to win to stay in playoff hunt, without Lee. The playoffs will be interesting, especially if Lee is not playing.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:12 pm
Today was a game that showed how Lee was missed. Outrebounded 62-37 is ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:25 am
The reason why that happened was that all the team's players, especially the bigs, especially Bogut, played like pansies, played weak.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:45 pm
Mr. Crackerz wrote:Today was a game that showed how Lee was missed. Outrebounded 62-37 is ridiculous.

Not only that, but it appears we've found Draymond Green's kryptonite: a more athletic hustle player. Green usually thrives because he outworks his opponent, but when he runs into a motor like his, we are all reminded of how limited Green is, physically, compared to most NBA players.

Kenneth Faried demolished Draymond; not that Lee would have done much better. But if we're entertaining Kawakami's article proposal - considering Green over Lee because Green is better at defense - last night was a major black eye on that line of reasoning. Faried's usually pretty feeble on the offensive end and he finished with 18/17/1 in 32 minutes. Not to mention, Draymond's opposing box score was pretty terrible for a starting PF: 4/2/2 in 24 minutes.

Everyone with a brain: 1
Kawakami: 0

I wonder if David Lee has nude photos of Kawakami's wife or something... why has Tim K had it out for DLee since the moment they signed him? Lee called Kawakami's reporting of him "biased" in a recent interview and, at this point, it's pretty tough to dispute that. Mention Lee around Tim K and the guns come out. Definitely seems personal at this point, considering Lee is indisputably one of the 6 best PF's in the game and puts up numbers at his position that the Warriors haven't seen since 1994.
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