Chance of W's doing something stupid

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:09 am
Maybe I'm paranoid.... due to post-traumatic Chris Cohan and Co. Syndrome LOL ... but I'm REALLY loving our roster right now, and the biggest threat to success right now that I can see is 1) health 2) fixing what isn't broken. I look at a team like the Celtics when they traded away Kendrick Perkins. They were the best team in the league, on a tear. It totally pissed off Rondo and fkd with their chemistry. So that is all. I'm just paranoid of fixing what isn't broken...because I understand that sometimes FO's (like Danny Ainge did) get too clever for their own good. This is probably why when I hear any trade rumors, however true or not, I'm like NOOOO!!! Don't F with this roster! lol . I just really think that or health is the only way the Warriors don't win 50, have a deep playoff run, etc. But I have complete confidence in Lacob and the FO. I'm just recovering from the Cohan years of waking up to head scratching moves.

I like the roster we have for a multitude of reasons:
1) a good mix of youth and vet
2) defense -- Iggy and Klay guarding best perimeter players while Bogut (now at 100%) is a beast in the paint.
3) every significant player is either in their prime or will be entering it in a couple years
4) the growth potential. Curry, Barnes, and Klay have their best years in front of them, and the chance to elevate this team to contenders as they mature, grow together, and develop even better chemistry. Curry emerging into a star / superstar, Klay emerging into a very good 2-way player, Barnes with his high ceiling.
5) chemistry. huge reason for their success last year, despite Bogut being out a lot. so I'm extremely hesitant to mess with this factor, to mess with a good thing, to fix what isn't broken.
6) depth. literally every single player on this roster can contribute, and many on the bench have played starter minutes in the careers before.

a great Warriros season awaits us all
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:34 am
I just can't wait for this season to start. This offseason seems so much longer than previous years. It's killing me.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:46 am
I agree. I dont think this team should tinker with this roster right now, especially as we want to see what results from it.

However, by January, we should really evaluate our strengths and weaknesses, and determine if we need to make a trade to make this a championship team. A trade 32 and I discussed on his "10 Questions" thread discussed bringing in Love for Lee/Klay. I wouldnt want to do this trade now, as I want to see what we go, but just imaging the starting 5 on that team, and all the strengths that result from that, makes it a championship caliber team.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:09 am
It was definitely the right call trading Perkins away.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:47 am
Blackfoot wrote:It was definitely the right call trading Perkins away.


If throwing away a championship run is the right call, then sure.. :)


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-bas ... -a-mistake
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:02 am
rockyBeli wrote:
Blackfoot wrote:It was definitely the right call trading Perkins away.


If throwing away a championship run is the right call, then sure.. :)


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-bas ... -a-mistake

I agree with rocky.

That trade reminds me of God of War II, when Hades pulls Atlas' soul out of his body and devours it; absorbing his power. The Thunder and Celtics effectively swapped places in their respective conferences: suddenly, OKC went from being a young, fringe team with potential to a championship contender. Boston, meanwhile, went from being perennial favorites in the meager Leastern Conference to a lower seed that looked like it was still a piece or two away.

I'm sure you can pull a bunch of impressive numbers for Green out and make a case, but Perk is like Bogut and we all know Bogut's impact is far greater than simply what he puts on a stat sheet. Perkins let KG conserve some energy for the offensive end, he kept Boston's small lineup as a change-up (rather than a preferred identity that teams could prep for), he set the hard picks and laid the hard fouls down so Garnett didn't have to. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City has become the gold standard in the West. I'm not saying its directly attributable to Perk, but yeah. Ask anyone in Boston how they feel about that trade.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:25 pm
And, regarding rocky's OP, this very topic is why I was concerned with the Warriors shopping Lee for a doormat like Bargnani. You don't wanna get too guard-oriented; shooters need shots, stars need touches. I'll take a surplus of guys like Bogut, Lee, and Speights - who can find points on offensive rebounds and point-blank looks - over a roster like Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, and Baron Davis... Aka, a team built around guards who execute the Nellieball isolation give-and-go (Tolbert refers to this as the "give' me the ball and 'go' f*ck yourself").

Curry, Thompson, and Iguodala are definitely a better, more effective trio than the We Believe triad, but this team's true advantage is a greater front court than the Warriors have possibly ever seen.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:28 am
Perkins wasn't going to push that team over the edge.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:44 pm
He wasnt going to; he did.

The Celtics' downward spiral is linked conclusively to the Perkins trade. Even Doc admits it.

Look directly at Kevin Garnett's production as a Celtic before and after the trade. Perkins was his protection. It's the same logic as the Prince Fielder MVP argument; he hit cleanup behind two back-to-back MVPs on two different teams... Does that not make him the truly most valuable player? Perkins is a 100% team-above-himself guy. It's no coincidence OKC absorbed Boston's championship powers.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:56 pm
32 wrote:
rockyBeli wrote:
Blackfoot wrote:It was definitely the right call trading Perkins away.


If throwing away a championship run is the right call, then sure.. :)


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-bas ... -a-mistake

I agree with rocky.

That trade reminds me of God of War II, when Hades pulls Atlas' soul out of his body and devours it; absorbing his power. The Thunder and Celtics effectively swapped places in their respective conferences...
I love this reference.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:04 am
32 wrote:He wasnt going to; he did.

The Celtics' downward spiral is linked conclusively to the Perkins trade. Even Doc admits it.

Look directly at Kevin Garnett's production as a Celtic before and after the trade. Perkins was his protection. It's the same logic as the Prince Fielder MVP argument; he hit cleanup behind two back-to-back MVPs on two different teams... Does that not make him the truly most valuable player? Perkins is a 100% team-above-himself guy. It's no coincidence OKC absorbed Boston's championship powers.


Doc is wrong. And Thunder right now are winning in spite of Perkins. He's god awful and was pretty mediocre in Boston other than their actual championship run. Ainge knows what he is doing. Their are two mistakes OKC has done. Trading for Perkins and giving up Jeff. And trading away Harden.


And protection in baseball is a myth. For 100 percent of every batter how a pitcher pitches to a batter does not change at all. They pitch the same way they would have. You don't pitch to the guy on deck. Here are good articles on it.

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/ ... snt-exist/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-wou ... look-like/

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/new ... esnt_exist
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:36 pm
So Perkins carrying his hard-nosed style of blue-collar production from Boston to OKC - resulting in both teams jetting in opposite directions in the very categories Perkins provides - and the bottom line reflecting the type of success he's demanded from his teammates all his career, is a complete and total coincidence? The most focused, intense player in the league went from being KG to Durant after the Perkins trade... And this is a fluke, too?

Again, lotta similarities in Warriors terms. The team is still a We Believe, run-and-gun squad with Monta (even with Steph Curry & DLee here). Suddenly, Bogut arrives and this enormous change of culture that Milwaukee raved about takes shape in the Bay. It wasnt Lacob's first year with the team. Or Jackson's. Or Curry's. Or Lee's. It was Bogut's arrival that sparked a culture shock.

Is it a coincidence that the Warriors' draft class "just happened to be" the hardest working, most driven group of rookies (ALL, taking pride in improving their defense game before anything else)... Immediately after the Warriors' first training camp with Bogut? David Lee's enormous leap in defensive rating? The Warriors becoming known as a defense-first team? Hell, even Andris Biedrins showed up for a month! You think Bogut knocking his ass into the lockers during practice didn't have anything to do with that? This team has players now who won't even act a LITTLE satisfied from a 2nd round exit - unlike We Believe, who practically named streets in Oakland after themselves and decided they had achieved enough glory to slack off for 2 extra years before washing out of the league.

Kendrick Perkins may not pass the statistics test, but this is another case of stats not telling the whole story. You gotta have a separation of powers; a legislative, a judicial, and an executive branch, none more powerful than the others. To me, those 3 powers are statistics, the eyeball test (ie, WATCHING the games), and the peer review board (meaning, what do the guys who actually play, coach, etc... think of any given subject). So, yeah, Perkins can have whatever deficiencies you claim he has, statistically. But he passes the eyeball test and the peer review with flying colors. The ENTIRE Celtics roster mourned that trade. That should tell you something.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:48 pm
Bogut passes the statistics test. Not offensively, but his defense is actually elite.

"So Perkins carrying his hard-nosed style of blue-collar production from Boston to OKC - resulting in both teams jetting in opposite directions in the very categories Perkins provides - and the bottom line reflecting the type of success he's demanded from his teammates all his career, is a complete and total coincidence? "

Yes.

"The most focused, intense player in the league went from being KG to Durant after the Perkins trade... And this is a fluke, too?"

Not really sure how you can prove something like this, but assuming it's true, yes.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:47 pm
I wasn't suggesting that Perkins was an elite center, like Bogut - as you pointed out. I was just relating his value to AB because both men go beyond the blanket, supposed value of their statistics. And that Green trade was garbage from day 1.

First of all, Jeff Green is a tweener... which is trendy in today's game because crackpot, modern day offensive-minded coaches adore being able to plug him into 3 different positions and keep him on the floor. But tweeners can't be stars... or, at least, not superstars. The best tweeners of all-time (Kevin Garnett, Antawn Jamison, etc) did not reach the apex of their careers until they committed to a single position. Garnett and Jamison both toyed with small forward early in their careers, but didn't become elite until they committed 100% to the power forward spot. Their rebounding numbers both improved and Garnett's defense became all-time. Jeff Green doesn't have a position. He's too weak to body up 4's and too slow to keep up with 3's. He creates an offensive mismatch, but he's enjoyed spotty production because teams can upset his rhythm with simple substitutions and Doc was irritated by Green's lack of assertion that typically accompanies players who refuse to identify with one position. That's strike 1.

Strike 2? The trade was a downgrade in size for Boston, which takes an enormous leap in talent to justify. Green is hands down more talented than Perkins... but that's not a fair comparison, seeing as 99% of 7-footers would be out on their asses if they needed to rely on fundamental basketball skills to make a living. Imagine Stephen Curry as a 7-footer. He'd easily be the GOAT. Now picture Andrew Bogut at 6'2". He wouldn't start on my rec team, for God's sake. Perkins doesn't have Green's basketball abilities, but his size and toughness negate any potential advantage that Green might have provided. A suitable trade for a center like Green would have been for Westbrook, but then Boston would have had to throw in an additional sweetener, like Rondo or Ray Allen, and Ainge wasn't going to do that. Don't forget, Ainge has as many f*ck ups on his record as he does wins. Presti, on the other hand, cut his teeth learning from RC Bufford and has made virtually zero mistakes (save for the Harden trade... and, even then, he got a LOT of picks back for JH). The Warriors just upgraded by signing Iguodala... but that move would have been a LOT uglier if the Warriors had to surrender Bogut to Utah in order to make room for Iggy. You NEVER surrender size for talent, unless you're getting a top 10-15 player in return. Jeff Green doesn't even crack the top 50.

Finally, the trade becomes obvious when you observe the battery-mates of Perkins and how they were affected by the deal. We already acknowledged Kevin Garnett's free fall from a 17-and-11 star power forward to a 15-and-7, burnt out looking old fogey. Let's look at the other side of the coin: Perkins was acquired to move Serge Ibaka from the bench to the starting 4 spot (which Jeff Green had been occupying to garner trade value). How did that work out for OKC? Ibaka went from being a rookie sending back 1.3 shots a game (eerily similar to Epke Udoh) to one of the elite rim-protectors of the league, THE man in terms of shot-blocking, and Perkins holding down the center spot has given Ibaka so much security in his position that he was able to work on a corner-3 last year, adding another dimension to OKC's offense. That increase in range DOES NOT happen with Ibaka starting as a small ball center next to Durant and Green arguing over who plays the 4.

Really, you're claiming that alllllllll these improvements for OKC and allllllll these chinks in Boston's armor are just coincidences and I don't buy it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:49 am
Jeff Green doesn't suck and Perkins does. Clear cut to me.


"Really, you're claiming that alllllllll these improvements for OKC and allllllll these chinks in Boston's armor are just coincidences and I don't buy it. "


The Thunder having Durant, Westbrook, and Harden at that time probably had something to do with it. Not sure why you are choosing to draw a correlation to Perkins, but there is a lot better explanations.
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