Will Barnes start over Klay?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:41 am
Gotta agree with BF here, bro.

The Spurs put their LeBron-stopper on Klay and their defensively inept point guard on Barnes. Who do YOU think they were concerned about? If you can't defer to me or Blackfoot, you must defer to Popp.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:59 am
Yeah. If we don't know. Pop knows.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:01 pm
The point is, if you are a legit scorer, not just a role player, you will always find a way to score. Granted you'll score a bit less when you are guarded by elite defender, or shoot lower percentage, but nevertheless, you will still score. That's what good players do, even just offensive players, not necessarily star players. Klay didn't do that. He disappeared. That's why I see him as a role player on offense, not a big threat. He is more valuable than Korver, and 3 point specialists because of his emerging good defense, but, without that, I don't see him as that much of a threat. He still has a lot to learn on offense, besides shooting...at least to get some nice views without screens, to shake off a defender by himself, with or without the ball.

This part is an opinion, but I believe that Harrison would still make some buckets if he was guarded by Kawhi, mostly because Kawhi is not so much athletically better than him, and he would give him some troubles. I can only guess that Pop might have thought of that as well, and thought it was better to stop Klay all together, and let Harrison take what he would either way.

Whatever is the truth, can't guarantee me anything of that you said, like I can't guarantee this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:44 pm
I have seen Barnes be a lot more passive than Klay in a lot more games than Klay. And that's always been his knock right? Being passive?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Blackfoot wrote:I have seen Barnes be a lot more passive than Klay in a lot more games than Klay. And that's always been his knock right? Being passive?

Yeah, that's a general sentiment around the fans. Though, I don't think Harrison would just sit in the corner for no good reason. He showed his speed and athleticism when he runs from the three and gets a putback, or at least an offensive rebound.

I would say that he mostly didn't have a lot of plays ran for him, especially at the beginning. As the season was advancing, so did Barnes. Overall, I think he is more complete player than Klay. Klay had that luck, so to say, that he played in a bad team, and had a lot of balls in his rookie year. Harrison had a lot of other guys in front of him, getting far less looks, and he still looks, at least to me, as a better overall player, or he will be soon enough.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:34 pm
+1 Guy. Klay is a great shooter, a role player ahead the likes of Korver because he showed he can play defense, but his overall game is still lacking and be improved on, to me unless that changes his role is he will be a great shooter, who still cannot create too well.

Barnes has way more arsenal of moves, size, he was a few amount of rookies to ever average 16 points per game in the playoffs, the impressive part was how he was able to do it. This year he def moves up the chain of command past Klay.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:50 pm
Everyone's forgetting that Klay had a post game too. That's not something to just gloss over.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:12 pm
I think you guys are confusing potential with production.

Barnes has a higher ceiling then Klay; no one's arguing that. But to act like Barnes is already an NBA level scorer who should be able to school an all-world defender like Kawhi Leonard - a wing who frustrated LeBron James himself - is both unfair to Barnes (who shouldn't have that demanded of him yet) and a diss towards Klay, who is not some one-dimensional scrub like Korver just because he got locked up by a guy who got All-NBA Defensive Team votes.

Leonard held LeBron James under 37% in games 2 and 3 of the Finals. Is LeBron worse than Barnes because Barnes blew up on ridiculously light point guard coverage while James struggled against San Antonio's lock down stud?

Barnes averaged 16 points in the playoffs - a 12 game span. Thompson averaged 16 points on the entire season. And before you say any of those rookie/veteran excuses, remember that as a rookie, Thompson averaged 19 points in the final month of the season - a 16 game span. Klay's 19 came on 46% from the field, 38% for three. Barnes' 16 came on 44% from the field, 36% for 3.

At this juncture, the only argument that can be made for Barnes over Thompson is potential. And that's not discounting the player Barnes CAN become; it simply means that based on their on-court production in similar circumstances thus far throughout their careers, Thompson is irrefutably the better player.

Maybe Barnes surpasses him someday, possibly as early as next season. But he hasn't yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:52 pm
32 wrote:I think you guys are confusing potential with production.

Barnes has a higher ceiling then Klay; no one's arguing that. But to act like Barnes is already an NBA level scorer who should be able to school an all-world defender like Kawhi Leonard - a wing who frustrated LeBron James himself - is both unfair to Barnes (who shouldn't have that demanded of him yet) and a diss towards Klay, who is not some one-dimensional scrub like Korver just because he got locked up by a guy who got All-NBA Defensive Team votes.

Leonard held LeBron James under 37% in games 2 and 3 of the Finals. Is LeBron worse than Barnes because Barnes blew up on ridiculously light point guard coverage while James struggled against San Antonio's lock down stud?

Barnes averaged 16 points in the playoffs - a 12 game span. Thompson averaged 16 points on the entire season. And before you say any of those rookie/veteran excuses, remember that as a rookie, Thompson averaged 19 points in the final month of the season - a 16 game span. Klay's 19 came on 46% from the field, 38% for three. Barnes' 16 came on 44% from the field, 36% for 3.

At this juncture, the only argument that can be made for Barnes over Thompson is potential. And that's not discounting the player Barnes CAN become; it simply means that based on their on-court production in similar circumstances thus far throughout their careers, Thompson is irrefutably the better player.

Maybe Barnes surpasses him someday, possibly as early as next season. But he hasn't yet.



+1

This is exactly how I see it as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:02 pm
32 wrote:I think you guys are confusing potential with production.

Production wise Barnes was deferring because he was a rookie, whether it was on him or following the chain of command he was finding his way. After the playoffs he established to me how important his versatility is, that was not potential but production. I am looking at the end of the season after playoffs to make my judgement.

Barnes has a higher ceiling then Klay; no one's arguing that. But to act like Barnes is already an NBA level scorer who should be able to school an all-world defender like Kawhi Leonard - a wing who frustrated LeBron James himself - is both unfair to Barnes (who shouldn't have that demanded of him yet) and a diss towards Klay, who is not some one-dimensional scrub like Korver just because he got locked up by a guy who got All-NBA Defensive Team votes.

Korver shot 46% from 3s, comparing or saying Klay is a level ahead of Korver overall how is that a diss ? I am not overvaluing or undervaluing Klay, Klay is a great spot up shooter, is it a crime to say that ? Barnes easily could have performed better with a Kawhi on him instead of disappearing. I will quote Guy because he gets what I am trying to say, "if you are a legit scorer, not just a role player, you will always find a way to score. Granted you'll score a bit less when you are guarded by elite defender, or shoot lower percentage, but nevertheless, you will still score"

Leonard held LeBron James under 37% in games 2 and 3 of the Finals. Is LeBron worse than Barnes because Barnes blew up on ridiculously light point guard coverage while James struggled against San Antonio's lock down stud?


Look at the Denver series, Barnes did not just perform well due to being guarded by Parker. Lebrons performance that is all on him, just like Klay laying an egg is all on him.

Barnes averaged 16 points in the playoffs - a 12 game span. Thompson averaged 16 points on the entire season. And before you say any of those rookie/veteran excuses, remember that as a rookie, Thompson averaged 19 points in the final month of the season - a 16 game span. Klay's 19 came on 46% from the field, 38% for three. Barnes' 16 came on 44% from the field, 36% for 3.

That was also the time we were tanking, we ended up losing 19 out of the last 23 games that season, so again there was no deferring he had the green light.

At this juncture, the only argument that can be made for Barnes over Thompson is potential. And that's not discounting the player Barnes CAN become; it simply means that based on their on-court production in similar circumstances thus far throughout their careers, Thompson is irrefutably the better player.

The season is over I think Barnes is better, and when the season starts will be better, if this was the middle or early in the season then yes Klay, but an entire season has passed, the progression I see after the playoffs I say Barnes. Major leaps next year if given the chance.

I love both of these guys on the team, both play important roles, I am saying maximize the strengths of the players, create screens for Klay to get open, and allow Barnes more Iso, and run more plays for him.

Maybe Barnes surpasses him someday, possibly as early as next season. But he hasn't yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:39 pm
I think everyone has made some incorrect assumptions. Lee will be the one coming off the bench, not Barnes. I see the Warriors playing small ball as a starting unit with Bogut, Barnes, Iggy, Klay and Steph. The Warriors need better defense and Iggy and Klay will be on the floor to provide that. Speights, Lee and Green will come in with the second unit. If the Warriors pick up a backup center and a veteran PG, or Nedovic beats out Bazemore; Nedovic, with his experience could be the backup PG. Still a lot of moves to play out and the Warriors will do what's necessary to make it all work.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:20 pm
LMAO, David Lee is most certainly not coming off the bench for Harrison Barnes. ::lol:

All-NBA 3rd team PFs, fresh off an all-star season, being paid $14 million a year do not ride the pine so that a green horn SF (with 12 games of impressive basketball) can play the frankenstein stretch 4 in a full-time role and revert a legitimate Western Conference power back into a fringe playoff Nellieball team.

Jackson's too smart to do that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:11 pm
32 wrote:LMAO, David Lee is most certainly not coming off the bench for Harrison Barnes. ::lol:

All-NBA 3rd team PFs, fresh off an all-star season, being paid $14 million a year do not ride the pine so that a green horn SF (with 12 games of impressive basketball) can play the frankenstein stretch 4 in a full-time role and revert a legitimate Western Conference power back into a fringe playoff Nellieball team.

Jackson's too smart to do that.


Lol why you givin him a negative poster credit though. Can't tell if he's a troll or not, but if he isn't, then welcome to the board. But yeah, Lee is not coming off the bench. I don't think it's really a discussion. I just don't see it. That'd be pretty crazy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:07 am
32 wrote:I think you guys are confusing potential with production.

Barnes has a higher ceiling then Klay; no one's arguing that. But to act like Barnes is already an NBA level scorer who should be able to school an all-world defender like Kawhi Leonard - a wing who frustrated LeBron James himself - is both unfair to Barnes (who shouldn't have that demanded of him yet) and a diss towards Klay, who is not some one-dimensional scrub like Korver just because he got locked up by a guy who got All-NBA Defensive Team votes.

Leonard held LeBron James under 37% in games 2 and 3 of the Finals. Is LeBron worse than Barnes because Barnes blew up on ridiculously light point guard coverage while James struggled against San Antonio's lock down stud?

Barnes averaged 16 points in the playoffs - a 12 game span. Thompson averaged 16 points on the entire season. And before you say any of those rookie/veteran excuses, remember that as a rookie, Thompson averaged 19 points in the final month of the season - a 16 game span. Klay's 19 came on 46% from the field, 38% for three. Barnes' 16 came on 44% from the field, 36% for 3.

At this juncture, the only argument that can be made for Barnes over Thompson is potential. And that's not discounting the player Barnes CAN become; it simply means that based on their on-court production in similar circumstances thus far throughout their careers, Thompson is irrefutably the better player.

Maybe Barnes surpasses him someday, possibly as early as next season. But he hasn't yet.

Fair enough, I just don't look at it that way. When you look at the stats, as BF will certainly, then you can see that Klay is better. But...if you take a step back, and look at the bigger picture, you will clearly see how much Harrison improved over the season, and then blew up in the playoffs.

Though, I gotta say one more thing, Harrison blew up not just because he then started being more active, as some will point out, but because Lee went out, Harrison got more looks. And, imagine that, kid proved that he deserve those.

32, you mentioned how Klay averaged 19 point towards the end of his rookie season, and WSU explained pretty much what I was trying to say. We were tanking then, and because of that tank we got Harrison. So, it was easy to let Klay shoot in a games with no real meaning, that weren't competitive. Harrison never had that luxury, he was a 4th-5th option on the team, he never got majority of the actions like Klay did, yet he managed to show how versatile he is, and still managed to average almost 10 points a game, even without actions for him, all improvisation, and his ability to grab a rebound, be in a right place at the right time, etc.

Klay's post game (which I can't remember is being good) is nowhere near Barnes' anyway.

In the end, it comes down to this, are you happy that a guy on your team, who you don't wanna crown as a great shooting specialist, when guarded by good defender can't even open to shoot 10 times a game? Is that what your 2nd or 3rd option should do? Scorers score, always. Role players do their part, which are great sometimes, but you don't force them to shoot, and go to them, when they can't get open. If they can, that's a whole different story. LeBron didn't do great in a few games against Kawhi you say, but he still carried his team...are you gonna say that Klay was doing the same? Contributing and scoring a lot, just a little bit lower percentage than before?
And SA closed the inside for LeBron, letting him shoot from the outside. It wasn't just Kawhi. Leonard couldn't stop him on his own, that's why they did that. It took him a few games to adjust (James) and the he started making those jumpers, hitting 5 threes in one game...cause that's what great offensive players do, they adjust. They find other ways to score if they stop their primary plays. Klay didn't do that, that should be the end of that story, and his comparison to LBJ.

You tell me how he is contributing when he is not shooting open shots? Offense only. True shooting percentage means squat, if you can't get open. You get the ball few times on offense, to try and make a play, but you are well defended and the team makes nothing of it, just loses valuable second of the shot clock.

I like Klay, I really do, but it seems that he is presented here like he is one of the bes SGs in the league, which he is not. He is an amazing shooter, and that's a not bad thing, but you don't put you offense on a shooter who is being well guarded and can't get open.

Putting those percentage numbers is not doing any favors to Barnes, because, obviously, Klay is a better shooter. Of course he will have better percentage, but he builds those up when he has room and is open. Harrison is battling for a lot of baskets below, and shooting as well, fade aways, post moves...etc. Klay will shoot 60% one game, and then 25% next one, depending who is guarding him. That's why you don't force him when he is having those bad games with high pressure on him. You take Harrison's 45% that he will almost always give you. That's why I'm saying Kawhi wouldn't had the same luck with Barnes as he did with Klay, Harrison would have found other ways to score, if Kawhi was guarding the perimeter, or if he was harder on the inside, he would shoot more from the outside.

Basically, good offensive players have more means to score, and that's what makes them good, you can stop one way, but you will never stop them completely. You can make them shoot worse than usual, but they would still put up close to 20 points.

Anyway, we will see at the beginning of the season...and a lot of it will depend on who will be starting.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:02 am
I am not going to read through all of these wall of texts.

But it doesn't matter why Barnes differed. He scored less points with the same efficiency.
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