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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:02 pm
Blackfoot wrote:Rudy ISN'T a consistent scorer so the point is moot. Would have not beat the Clippers with him, as evident of last year first round bout.

C'mon, Blackfoot. Rudy Gay has a bad playoff series and he's a cancer forevermore?

The guy's not an efficient shooter, we know. He's got the same problem Josh Smith, Monta Ellis, Rajon Rondo, and countless other studs (whom you dismiss) have. He doesn't have the all-mighty, God-willing, handed-down-from-Olympus-on-high, true-shooting percentage on lock. That doesn't make him a bad player.

Furthermore, it doesn't make him an offensive player the opposing team can ignore. Gay's worst enemy (like Smith and Ellis) is himself; he refuses to adjust his game to his skill-level and quit launching errant 3's. The common denominator of all 3 of these guys? Poor 3-point shooting; which you've claimed is not the executioner's axe to your favorite stat, but I believe otherwise. None of these guys shoot above 35% from long-range, all of them pour in 17 points or higher the past 3 seasons, but because they don't knock down the long ball, their TS% suffers. Meaning you'd rank them behind players like JJ Reddick, Mike Miller, and Carlos Delfino. Y'know what those 3 guys lack that their poor-shooting peers don't? The ability to create their own shot. That's why players like Reddick consistently stay within their role, at 9 points on efficient shooting, while guys like Ellis bring 20 points a night on sporadic shooting that can be hot, cold, or anywhere in between.

Of course you want the Holy Grail; the efficient scorer who can create his own shot... but there are only so many LeBron's, Curry's, and Durant's to go around. Most players with elite TS% percentages reside in 3 categories: (a) the ultra rare superstars (like Harden) who can create their own shot and pour in buckets at a high percentage, (b) the big men who only shoot from 2-feet out (Brandan Wright, Tyson Chandler), and (c) the role players who NEVER go above their gameplan and chip in efficiently when called upon but very rarely can be counted on to create a basket when the ball starts in their hands. These are the Sefolosha's, the the Korver's, and the Battier's.

I'm not trying to claim that guys like Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, or Josh Smith can sniff the characters in category A. I'm simply saying, they're worth more than the guys in the B/C realm. Don't believe me? We'll see who gets more greenbacks this offseason: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis, or Jarrett Jack and Brandan Wright.

But the bottom line is that a guy like Rudy Gay is a huge asset. And pretending that he's not because he has a high-usage and a low-TS% is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. His TRB% is higher than LeBron's, he's an elite wing defender, and he scores 18 points a game on 45% shooting (which would be way above 50% inside the arc). Dude is a baller.

I'll make a friendly wager with you. Since you were touting Ed Davis' advanced stats at the time of the trade and you say Gay is such a loser, I'll bet you Rudy Gay finishes next season with a higher PER. Seeing as Gay plays 3 times as many minutes, we can all agree that it's much harder for him to maintain a high PER the longer he's out there (like playing the house in blackjack). If Davis proves to be the superior player, I'll put "BLACKFOOT WAS RIGHT" in my sig for 3 months. If Gay wins out, you put "32 WAS RIGHT" in your sig for 3 months. Deal?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:12 pm
Blackfoot wrote:Rudy ISN'T a consistent scorer so the point is moot. Would have not beat the Clippers with him, as evident of last year first round bout.


They lost to the Clips because of their front line, and the Griffin injury, lost to the Thunder because of the Westbrook injury, so lets not act as if they accomplished a great feat, they were fully healthy.

Against the Spurs they never scored more than 100, scored 90 points once, but they don't need scoring, or ok its the spurs, maybe the Griz are not ready to move past certain point. My main point the griz didn't have someone to take over Gays scoring, and future wise Prince ? Daye, Ed Davis ? the answer, they better hope so, because Randolph, Gasol, Conley can only do so much.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:50 pm
I will take the ED Davis bet.

That being said, it's not worth it to have a guy that can create his own shot inefficiently. You are more likely to be losing in any given situation because of it. It's better to have efficient players that work in a system.

They went up five points in efficiency without him. I am not sure you guys realize how much five points is in just efficiency. It's a lot. It's really, really bad that Gay caused them to go down that much.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:56 pm
Blackfoot wrote:I will take the ED Davis bet.

That being said, it's not worth it to have a guy that can create his own shot inefficiently. You are more likely to be losing in any given situation because of it. It's better to have efficient players that work in a system.

They went up five points in efficiency without him. I am not sure you guys realize how much five points is in just efficiency. It's a lot. It's really, really bad that Gay caused them to go down that much.


Then come playoffs they get swept, and can't score barely score 90 points, and not hit the 100 point mark against the spurs, all while they are all healthy. Like I said if they are wanting to advance further in the playoffs in coming years, it will take more than Conley, Gasol, and Randolph.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:58 pm
They would have been swept by the Spurs in the WCF with or without Gay. If you are looking to improve the Grizzlies and make them a better team, Gay is not the answer.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:04 pm
I'm not denying Gay was a bad fit for Memphis for a few years. He's not a #1 scoring option; he's somewhere between a 2nd or 3rd option, yet they drew him up 20 shots a night. How much of that is Hollins' fault? How much blame goes on Conley? Gay's not drawing up the game plan. He was being set up to fail as the team's top option. The Grizzlies improved cause they gave the reigns to ZBo who, in fairness, SHOULD have been the #1 option anyway.

The Raptors used him better. He and DeRozen are matchup problems, Bargnani stretches the floor, and Lowry penetrates. Gay has shooters to bail him out (which he didn't in Memphis). He's got a point guard whose a threat (which Conely wasn't until recently). And more to the point: the Raptors run more than the Grizzlies and THAT'S how you gotta use a guy like Gay.

In a weak Eastern Conference, the Raptors should be a playoff team with Rudy in tow. This year they got hit with injuries and Gay latched on midseason. I'm confident they'll be better next year. They're in the Bulls/Pacers' division, so they won't be a LOT better, but I bet they end up ahead of Milwaukee (who was the 8-seed last year).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:07 pm
Blackfoot wrote:They would have been swept by the Spurs in the WCF with or without Gay. If you are looking to improve the Grizzlies and make them a better team, Gay is not the answer.


And Prince, Daye, Ed Davis is ? They overpaid dude yes, the Griz are not ready to be an elite team, they got stuck in the mud and couldn't score that is the fact. Dude like I said they couldn't even score more than 90, more than 90, it don't get no worst than that. Next year will speak volumes just watch. The Griz will once again be carried by their front-line, but thats is all they will depend on, and Conley. Gay will have a good year, but won't have the cast to make much noise.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:20 pm
You act as if scoring wasn't a worse problem with Gay, WS. It was. They scored less with Gay. And it was really bad some nights, more so than the Spurs series.


Gay did perform better with the Raptors, but the Raptors performed worse with Gay offensively. Kind of a bad trade off.

Depending on how the off season goes, I think the Raptors suck. We will see what they do in the off season. But a team starting Gay and Bargs is not going to be a good team.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:14 pm
Blackfoot wrote:You act as if scoring wasn't a worse problem with Gay, WS. It was. They scored less with Gay. And it was really bad some nights, more so than the Spurs series.


Gay did perform better with the Raptors, but the Raptors performed worse with Gay offensively. Kind of a bad trade off.

Depending on how the off season goes, I think the Raptors suck. We will see what they do in the off season. But a team starting Gay and Bargs is not going to be a good team.


Gay, Bargnani, + Lebron = championship
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:15 pm
8th ave wrote:
Blackfoot wrote:You act as if scoring wasn't a worse problem with Gay, WS. It was. They scored less with Gay. And it was really bad some nights, more so than the Spurs series.


Gay did perform better with the Raptors, but the Raptors performed worse with Gay offensively. Kind of a bad trade off.

Depending on how the off season goes, I think the Raptors suck. We will see what they do in the off season. But a team starting Gay and Bargs is not going to be a good team.


Gay, Bargnani, + Lebron = championship

LMAO, +1 :mrgreen:

Gay is a starter. Not even an argument, he's a top 10 SF in a league with more great small forwards than any era before it. Bargnani, on the other hand, is a fair point. Not only is he not a multi-category player, but the only category he DOES contribute in (scoring), he's proven to be more of a specialist than an actual threat. Dude can't score inside the 3-point line. Bargnani = Bonner. Possibly the worst #1 overall selection of the past 30 years. He, Greg Oden, and Kwame Brown can all stake a claim to it. Oden is a factor, he's just never healthy. Brown has at least carved out a niche; nobody would be trippin if he were a late 1st rounder. And Bargnani is just a massive disappointment. His 2011-'12 season was nice, but again - he does nothing but shoot. Worst rebounding 7-footer of all time, can't pass to save his life, among the most inept defensive players in the game. He's a shooter with a TS% of 48.2% last year.

That being said: a slasher increases the open looks of a spot-up shooter. If Toronto can find a post-threat who blocks shots, it'll help Bargs a lot. I hear Utah wants to get rid of Al Jefferson. That might be worth looking at, if you're the CRaptors.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:54 pm
Bargs might get amnestied.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:58 pm
If that happens, I want him.

He's a stretch big, can play alongside Lee OR Bogut. That's literally the only thing this team is missing. I'd love to take a flier on Bargnani and see if Jackson's magic works on him. MJax (and Bogut) got DLee to play some D; maybe they can get something outta Bargnani.

Imagine the range on that team. Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Bargnani... and a rebounder. That's real, REAL, gnarly. He'd be cheaper than Landry and we wouldn't give him anywhere near the minutes he got in Toronto. He'd be the specialist, Bonner-type player he SHOULD be.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:22 pm
32 wrote:If that happens, I want him.

He's a stretch big, can play alongside Lee OR Bogut. That's literally the only thing this team is missing. I'd love to take a flier on Bargnani and see if Jackson's magic works on him. MJax (and Bogut) got DLee to play some D; maybe they can get something outta Bargnani.

Imagine the range on that team. Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Bargnani... and a rebounder. That's real, REAL, gnarly. He'd be cheaper than Landry and we wouldn't give him anywhere near the minutes he got in Toronto. He'd be the specialist, Bonner-type player he SHOULD be.


I definitely would not want to bring in Bargnani. I remember Duane Casey saying that management would not let him be tough on him because they were afraid he wouldn't be able to take it. That's speaks volumes about how much a player is willing to go through for the greater good of the team. I do not doubt his offensive abilities, but having another player who is as bad as Lee on defense without the rebounding ability is out of the question for me. Homeboy might be softer than a roll of Charmin.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:30 pm
8th ave wrote:
32 wrote:If that happens, I want him.

He's a stretch big, can play alongside Lee OR Bogut. That's literally the only thing this team is missing. I'd love to take a flier on Bargnani and see if Jackson's magic works on him. MJax (and Bogut) got DLee to play some D; maybe they can get something outta Bargnani.

Imagine the range on that team. Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Bargnani... and a rebounder. That's real, REAL, gnarly. He'd be cheaper than Landry and we wouldn't give him anywhere near the minutes he got in Toronto. He'd be the specialist, Bonner-type player he SHOULD be.


I definitely would not want to bring in Bargnani. I remember Duane Casey saying that management would not let him be tough on him because they were afraid he wouldn't be able to take it. That's speaks volumes about how much a player is willing to go through for the greater good of the team. I do not doubt his offensive abilities, but having another player who is as bad as Lee on defense without the rebounding ability is out of the question for me. Homeboy might be softer than a roll of Charmin.

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LMAO

I didn't hear that Duane Casey line; that changes my mind for sure. I honestly just want the Dubs to find a stretch big somewhere. That would have KILLED San Antonio's strategy in the playoffs. You put a stretch 4 next to Curry and NO big can cheat and double all the way to halfcourt. Bogut's man CONSTANTLY did that this year off scored buckets.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:43 am
Andrea Bargnani is Biedrins of the Toronto Raptors. He just brings something on offense, while Beans brings a bit of defense, still, their deficiencies outweigh that little positive things they bring by far.

And they even have the same initials.
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