Ringo wrote:

Blackfoot wrote:

JebronLames wrote:Also want to point out that though defensive rebounding is imperative to closing out the defensive possession and this integral to overall defense, the fact that dlees defensive rebound numbers tell me that he doesn't challenge the original shot. Most shot blockers/ rim protectors tend to have lower d rebounds because they're out of position trying for the shot block.

David's biggest problem on d is that he sacrifices challenging the original shot in order to box out and secure the rebound. Bogut also had this issue in the playoffs.

I think the warriors need to acquire a true defensive shot blocking presence I e tyson chandler

If you think Chandler is a better shot blocking defensive presence than Bogut than you are wrong. Bogut is one of the most pure defenders in the NBA.

+1 Blackfoot. As others have mentioned, hopefully Bogut will be healthy next year which we help Lee's defence. I'll take Jebron's comments in relation to Bogut with a grain of salt as he was the same person who wanted Biedrins to play more minutes than Bogut in the playoffs.

True... But I noticed the same thing JeBron did in the 1st and 2nd rounds; Bogut was definitely surrendering shots outside of the paint without contention to guys like Tony Parker and Andre Miller. Is that on Bogut... or the guards who are supposed to be performing their namesake on the opposing backcourt? I'd lean towards the latter. I'd also point out that while Lee fails to contest to prepare for potential rebounds, Bogut is more strategic than that; he seemed to be surrendering close range shots for the sake of preventing lay-ups. He leapt at everything that was put up inside the circle, but you gotta admit: those pull-ups and floaters from 6 feet out were virtually unguarded.

I have no defense for the Chandler suggestion, though. Tyson Chandler throws down harder alley-oops than Bogut aaaaaaaand that's about it.

Those are the shots we wanted the guards to take in the playoffs. Not threes, not lay ups, but 13-17 foot jumpers. Whether you disagree with that defensive philosophy is another discussion, but this was by design, not by any fault of the players.

I wasn't talking about those; I was talking about the 5-6 foot range, literally just outside the paint.

Maybe everyone hates Biedrins for being overpaid, but am I the only one who was watching his activity in his short minutes this playoffs? Beans was a difference maker on defense. He was protecting the rim much better than both bogut and lee. Sure, the bogut wasn't 100% angle is there, but we haven't really seen bogut healthy in what, 2 years? I'm highly skeptical of him being the bogut of old and unsure of whether he will ever be able to move laterally or vertically as much as he used to.

That all being said, I will stand by my assessment that Biedrins played excellent defense during the playoffs. He altered shots and was a threat to short mid range jumpers that we were getting torched on. I challenge anyone to rewatch film of his play during the playoffs and argue that he didn't provide rim protection and shot blocking.

He's overpaid, but ill say that he was vastly better on d than either lee or bogut this last playoffs.

With regards to tyson chandler, I don't know why people think he's only an alley-opp guy. I'm goin to ask Blackfoot since he seems like the ultimate stat #s guy here on this forum to help me find defensive stats to back me up on tyson chandler being one of the nbas premier defensive centers.

First and foremost, Andris Biedrins played 17 minutes in 3 games. I dunno how you can claim he made any sort of impact; least of all, a greater impact than Andrew Bogut. Bogut's playoff PER was 16.2, Biedrins' was 6.4... which is a laughable difference.

Secondly, on paper, Biedrins' playoff DRtg was lower than Bogut's (98 to 100), but his ORtg was the same (98) while Bogut's was 7 points higher (107). Essentially, this translates as: every 100 possessions, Biedrins helped his team keep the opposition 1 field goal below normality, but his offense was also at a 2-point disadvantage because of him. That is the absolute definition of making zero impact. With Bogut on the floor, the Warriors were +7 every 100 possessions. If he could have played all 48 minutes every game, the Warriors wouldn't have lost. Despite whatever you think you saw in 6 minutes of Andris Biedrins per night, he made NOTHING of the sort of impact Bogut did. And it's not even close.

As far as DLee, I dunno how you can make broad, blanket statements about the playoffs when he was injured the entire time and playing on one leg. How can you hold that against him?

Also, you realize Blackfoot was the first one to dispute your claim that Chandler is in Bogut's league? Why do you think HE'D be the person willing to help prove your point? To make himself look less credible?

I find it absolutely hilarious that some people are still giving Biedrins the benefit of the doubt after he's completely phoned it in for 7 years. I wish I had your kind of faith, dude. Hey, maybe Baron Davis will spring back to all-star form and come be our backup point guard!

I can't argue about Biedrins because he wasn't given any playing time and he is not an offensive threat. But sometimes the defensive presence he had impacted the game outside of statistics. He was a much bigger threat to block shots than bogut or lee and I distinctly remember that when he was in the game, his pure hustle and energy gave the warriors a lift.
Your claim that his defensive rebounding was less than bogut actually proves my point that he was attempting to challenge shots because that's why he was out of position to get the def rebound.

About tyson chandler:
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2012)
All-NBA Third Team (2012)
NBA All-Defensive First Team (2013)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2011–2012)

There is nothing I care less about then awards voted by coaches and reporters. They literally mean nothing. It would be like telling me Kobe is good at defense because coaches voted him all defense. Or that Derek Jeter is good at defense because he got gold glove awards.

Bogut Block Percentage: 3.9%
Chander Block Percentage: 3.7%

Bogut DR%: 24
Chandler DR%: 24.1

These are their career averages for block rate and defensive rebounds. Not to mention, Bogut is better at taking charges. Bogut's defense is better than Chandler's.

Not sure what you have against Bogut, but you are wrong and the fact you even wanted to argue Beans over him for at least is a little bit gives me an indication you don't actually care what Bogut does or brings to the table.

Blackfoot, I'm not well schooled on advanced stats, but kind of a difference is there between 3.9% and 3.7% block percentage? Is it major because it is not much of difference in nimber.

migya wrote:Blackfoot, I'm not well schooled on advanced stats, but kind of a difference is there between 3.9% and 3.7% block percentage? Is it major because it is not much of difference in nimber.

Negligible. Almost no difference.


Anyways, Bogut is by far a much better defender at almost everything else, I just used that number because he said Chandler is better at blocking and ****.

The hell is it with people getting behind bedriens??? Seriously, why is this even a discussion?

To BF's point: the year Bogut led the league in blocks, he was also top 5 in charges taken. Plus he steals the ball cause he reads players' eyes. And we've all seen how great of a leader he is, vocally, on the defensive end. It's no coincidence that David Lee and Drew Gooden, two doormat 4's prior to teaming with Bogut, both drastically improved their DRtg with his tutelage.

Again, Chandler is a more efficient offensive center. He completes his lay-ups at a 70% clip, stays within his role, and is possibly one of 4 players in the entire league that sets a better screen than Bogut. You could argue Bogut's passing savvy and potential range (that he's lacked since elbow surgery) make it close, but defensively there's no question that Bogut when he's healthy is the 2nd best defensive 5 in the league (to Howard, when healthy).

Health is a big factor, though. Playoff Bogut was a franchise player, but regular season Bogut was immobile and almost failed to out-produce our rookie prospect. So the spectrum is very wide. When Bogut's on one leg and can't get his wind, he's average. But at his peak, Bogut is elite. Chandler is typically healthy, and while he's above-average, he's not an elite player like Andrew Bogut.

This here is the main issue.

32 wrote: when he's healthy

Beans did in-fact play meaningful minutes as few as they were, sort of like Rodman, it couldve been part of the strategy to send as many men towards Duncan. Beans was the freshest, he was real active, contested shots. Not his hugest fan but I can say if he can take on the Rodman role then use him.

Biedrins played less than 6 minutes per night, after David Lee tore a hip flexor, in a series that was marked by Golden State foul trouble in the front court. Not only was he a complete last resort, but he barely got any run.

What are "meaningful minutes" to you guys? You can make an impact in 6 minutes during 3 different games?

I am not sure why Beans is ever talked up here.