Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:59 am
WHOA, migs.

... Did you just suggest that Allen Iverson would have won LA more titles with Shaq than Kobe???
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:22 am
What I said is that they would have won more games, but they could have well have won more championships. Kobe and Iverson were similar players, with Iverson at that time being a better scorer, distributor and able to play both guard positions. Kobe himself was a ballhog and almost singlehandedly destroyed that Lakers team with his self centeredness.
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migya make the ring fall on ya
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:19 am
I won't disagree that Kobe Bryant was a ballhog and a team cancer as well in his younger days, but he has since grown up a lot. Can we say the same about AI? Is AI ever even going to play professional basketball again? He's younger than Jason Kidd AND Steve Nash.

Honestly, what did Allen Iverson ever accomplish that would justify speaking him in the same sentence as Kobe Bryant? Allen Iverson is a career loser. He's a 42.5% shooter who took 21.8 shots a night. That's definition volume-chucker. He couldn't hit a three (31.3%), his free throws we're below-average for a guard (78%), he lost 3.6 turnovers a game, he killed locker room chemistry, he slayed every coach who tried to make him better, he alienated and saw to trades involving teammates who could help shoulder the offensive load, he took his ball and went home when he was asked to come off the bench, he's blown all of his money and gotten into ridiculous law troubles with the same level of maturity that he displayed in the NBA for years upon years... There's literally zero way that I can comprehend an objective manner of even attempting to compare him with Kobe Bryant.

Allen Iverson is the definition of an NBA loser. I can envision absolutely no scenario where he or any team he was on would have any chance of winning an NBA title.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:42 am
32, I think it's also important to remember AI was incredibly cool and badass. Totally chill, dude.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:57 am
Allen Iverson had a great nba career that was more successful than what it really should have been. His teams in Philadelphia were never talented, as were his teams in Denver and Detroit.

Kobe Bryant had the fortune of playing for the Los Angeles Lakers, after demanding to go there before he even finished high school. He arrived on a team that was already established and had just recived every year MVP candidate and best Center of his era, Shaquille O'neal. He also had the fortune of having the greatest coach ever, Phil Jackson, coach him for all but four years of his entire sixteen year career. That lead to Kobe getting three championships, being without a doubt the second best player on those threepeat Lakers championships, then much later two more championships, only after the Lakers got Pau Gasol, th star big that is great on both ends of the court, in one of the most ridiculous onesided trades in history.

As for career stats, Kobe is as much a "ball hog" as Iverson, having taken 19.5 shots a game and don't forget that his first two seasons he was a bench player and thus didn't get to take that many shots, so basically his career can be taken for the last thirteen years at full force. He has a 45.4FG% and a 33.8% 3ptFG%. I won't use any negative descriptions here, but Kobe is very slightly better than Iverson and Kobe is at least six inches taller, making it much easier for him to score. Kobe gets over 3 TOs a game and has been worse the last few years also.

As for troubles in his career, Kobe's had them. Eddie Jones and Van Exel said more than once when Kobe was not even twenty years old, that he looked too much for himself and didn't want to wait to be the big star until he was ready. Both those players got traded to accomodate Bryant, at the time the future megastar darling to be. Shaquiile got ran out of time because of him and the biggest endorsement of Kobe Bryant being a negative to his Lakers teams in a big way came from the greatest coach ever, Phil Jackson, who wrote in his book, The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul, that Kobe was "uncoachable". Kobe has grown up much since then and been a great star the last five years and deserved those championships.

The Sexual Assault accusation made against Kobe, that he eventually settled out of court, tarnished his reputation.

The gay slur at referee Bennie Adams tarnished his reputation in a big way as well.


Kobe Bryant is no perfect model and though he is among the best players ever, he has been in the right situation to become so. Allen Iverson was never in such a situation and had to fight for everything he had right from the start. He did not make it easy for himself either, having a hard personality of sorts, but Kobe is also of a similar personality, just in a much more self elevating way, in that he always had the conviction and goal to be the best ever.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:22 am
You're completely right. Kobe Bryant, to his core, is a selfish prick who concerns himself with Kobe Way too often, for much too long, and has since his inception. Jelly Bean's boy; the prophetic son born to play this game and damn does he know it. The most egotistical player perhaps ever to play the game.

But... It's simple statistics. Kobe versus AI:

Kobe Bryant was the more efficient scorer (by far), out shooting Iverson in every statistical forum (from the line, the arc, the field). Bryant was the better rebounder and despite averaging less steals, is unquestionably the better defender. Bryant hasn't let his immaturity keep him from titles. Bryant - a career ball-hogging chucker - actually averages less shots than Iverson from the field. I mean, I understand the debate if it's close... But it's not. It's 5 titles to one overblown Finals appearance featuring the most excuses for any player I've ever heard.

Allen Iverson won't pass the ball unless it helps his fantasy stats (you never saw AI pass left and screen right), so clearly he must be regarded as a shooting guard. Because of this, you need to pair him with a big-bodied point guard, capable of guarding 2's, who doesn't want to take more than 5 or 6 shots a game. Essentially, for Allen Iverson ever to have won anything, he'd have had to have been paired with Jason Kidd in his prime. But the Lakers? I don't see it. Iverson is invisible and butthurt when he's not shooting... And Kobe shot around Shaq's looks. There is no way Iverson would have done the same.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:24 am
Blackfoot wrote:32, I think it's also important to remember AI was incredibly cool and badass. Totally chill, dude.

:mrgreen: +1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:24 am
32 wrote:He's a 42.5% shooter who took 21.8 shots a night. That's definition volume-chucker. He couldn't hit a three (31.3%), his free throws we're below-average for a guard (78%)...


I think those are pretty good stats?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:23 pm
gaga_warioz wrote:
32 wrote:He's a 42.5% shooter who took 21.8 shots a night. That's definition volume-chucker. He couldn't hit a three (31.3%), his free throws we're below-average for a guard (78%)...


I think those are pretty good stats?

Those are Monta Ellis stats.

Seriously. The only year Monta took 22 shots a night (2009-'10), he shot 44.9% from the field, 33.8% for three, and 75.3% from the line. Ellis actually put up a higher TS% than Iverson. He put up 25.5 points, 5.3 assists, 4.0 rebounds, and 2.2 steals with a league-leading 3.8 turnovers per game. Phenomenal fantasy stats, like Iverson. And like Iverson, the team floundered. Golden State won 26 games.

Years ago, amidst an argument about this very subject, I gathered data and statistics that proved Allen Iverson's career winning percentage in games he played was below .500. Many of his teams played better, more efficient basketball without him (again, like Ellis). How many Hall-of-Fame players can you say that about?

If you tired of watching Monta Ellis chuck shots, turn the ball over, and stymie the offense with his constant 1-on-5 game... Yet, you call yourself a fan of Allen Iverson, then we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on logic. To me, both players are cut from the same mold. If Ellis had began the prime of his career in the nuclear winter of the wide open Leastern Conference following Jordan's retirement, I believe he'd have done just as well as Iverson with the rosters he was given. No question.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:09 am
Wanted to bring this topic back because Lebron has been clutch and big time this season and particularly lately against Indiana. He got MVP again, in a landside, and might win another championship. If he does get the championship, I'll still have him behind Bird on alltime SFs, but one more season performing like he has and I'll say he's number one and close to top 5 player alltime.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:38 am
migya wrote:Wanted to bring this topic back because Lebron has been clutch and big time this season and particularly lately against Indiana. He got MVP again, in a landside, and might win another championship. If he does get the championship, I'll still have him behind Bird on alltime SFs, but one more season performing like he has and I'll say he's number one and close to top 5 player alltime.


I agree Migya... and I do not like LeBron. But he is just amazing. One more year of this (assumming heat win it all this year and next) and he eclipses Kobe and almost anyone else for me. Only Russell, Hakeem and Jordan are superior players that LeBron will still trail (plus all the rings they had, long way to go for him).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:54 pm
I don't put players on all time lists until their career finishes. I don't know where I would put him because he already has the best peak, but longevity needs to happen.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:47 pm
I still think Jordan accomplished more and as far as stats go, Jordan also did more, but Lebron will likely play more than the twelve years Jordan played in Chicago and that could be what gives it to him as being named the greatest ever.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:55 pm
Jordan has accomplished more, has the better legacy, and the better career.

However, I am willing to say right now, Lebron James has had the best peak of all time. He had the best season ever. And at this rate will definitely pass Jordan.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:57 pm
I've said it 150 times in this thread:

Jordan's first 10 seasons: 4 titles.
LeBron's first 9 seasons: 1 title.

Wake me up when LBJ wins 6 rings. His Heat team is still rolling, but Wade and Bosh appear to be aging and declining at a stupidly rapid pace. They might repeat this year, but I wouldn't pick them as favorites for next year. LeBron has turned it on in the playoffs for 2 years running now. Before that, he had a laundry list of playoff blunders. Shaq's post-season peak of dominance was 3-years. He took a while to win some rings, like LeBron. He fell off pretty quickly after pushing himself threw some bad foot injuries for the sake of titles.

I'm also assuming LeBron repeats here. He may not. The Spurs are rested, have a LeBron-defender in Leonard, the league's best playoff coach, and are sitting pretty at 12-2 in the postseason. If LeBron doesn't win a ring this year, are we still comparing him to Jordan?

PS: Blackfoot, you put LeBron's peak above Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson?
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