Curry's Defense

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:55 am
Think it's amazing that David Lee's defense gets tossed around as horrible - and a reason to trade him - yet Curry's is constantly glossed over. Curry might be one of the worst defending PG's out there. If anyone dvr'd game 6 vs the Spurs you will see how many possessions Curry was responsible for the other team scoring just in the first half, either by being beat by his man or being late on rotations. I counted over 20pts just in the first half. He was hobbled a bit but you'd think some mental defensive instincts could minimize his physical limitations. But all that is excusable because of what he provides on offense and I'm glad we have him on the team. I'm just saying David Lee's defense, which improved this year, has gotten more heat. Despite him being the most consistent and dependable Warrior, an all star, an all-nba 3rd team, and what he provides in the areas of post scoring, rebounding, passing, and leadership. As far as all star team, all-nba... Fans say, "Curry should've made it". But here's the thing: he didn't. He didn't leave an overwhelming shadow of a doubt that he should be an all star or all-team or was the most consistent. We could say he should've, but he didn't perform all year to the point of it being a no-brainer. Just think Lee's contract haunts him and it's difficult for some fans to let it go, even though he's been earning it. It's tempting to marginalize his importance to the team because of the contract.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:49 pm
For what it's worth, rock, I'm with you. I see Curry as a defensive liability, not quite as bad as Lee but definitely comparable. I see the value in them both, despite not bringing much defensively, they're both offensive studs. I see what you're doing and I agree with the gist of it.

But, that being said, Blackfoot is about to throw a building of advanced stats at you, inflating Curry's stock as a defender, especially since you downplayed the use of statistics in the other thread. Just wait.

:happy1:
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:07 pm
Curry's defense was net positive in all defensive metrics is why. He's shown quite a bit defensively. Fights through the screens, typically great at sinking in, rotates good.

He had a bad defensive series vs the Spurs, but it was still average for PG's.

Summary: Curry's not bad at defense.

And he was without a doubt better than Lee and deserved the all star game over him.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:37 am
Curry should improve defensively, but it is the team defensive scheme, lead by Bogut that is important and effective. All players will play their role and be better together than individually.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:38 am
I'll say this, you gotta play the hand you're dealt.

For a guy who lacks NBA explosiveness and is wafer-thin, Curry does all he can defensively. He's smart, he gives ground well, he closes out... Given his physical characteristics, you can't really demand much more. A lot of shooters (Mullin, Kerr, Bird) don't get to the NBA with the necessary athleticism to be more than smart defensive players. Not everyone can be Reggie Miller; who wasn't a defensive star either, but his attitude as an irritant proved useful.

Curry simply lacks the body to be a lock-down defender.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:54 pm
Please don't discount these facts:
1) curry was playing on a bum ankle
2) curry had to fight through multiple screens every single possession.
3) curry was expending a ton of energy on the offensive side of the ball being double teamed etc

I'm not saying he's an elite defender, but he's better than David lee in terms of defense IMHO. He is at least playing passing lanes and trying to deflect balls to turn them into turnovers. Many times David lee does not challenge shots or protect the rim when he needs to.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:45 pm
JebronLames wrote:I'm not saying he's an elite defender, but he's better than David lee in terms of defense IMHO.


yyyyyeeeahhhhh.....

that's not saying much.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:45 pm
JebronLames wrote:Please don't discount these facts:
1) curry was playing on a bum ankle
2) curry had to fight through multiple screens every single possession.
3) curry was expending a ton of energy on the offensive side of the ball being double teamed etc

I'm not saying he's an elite defender, but he's better than David lee in terms of defense IMHO. He is at least playing passing lanes and trying to deflect balls to turn them into turnovers. Many times David lee does not challenge shots or protect the rim when he needs to.

I hear you, JL, but I have 2 reactions:

A) As 8th said, David Lee is no defensive stud himself, so the very notion that Curry is being compared to him (thus, residing in his same category of defensive players) is more of a detractor to Curry than affirmation of his efforts. And...

B) I'm not so sure Lee is as pathetic as everyone makes him seem. If you value the act of securing a possession, thereby ending the offense's chance of scoring, Lee does a great job grabbing defensive rebounds. The Warriors' are piss poor at surrendering offensive glass when Lee is out of the game and that results in more opportunities for the opposition (whether you account that to Lee's skill or the negative aspects of small ball, where Barnes pretends to be a stretch 4, is subjective). Lee is also a sturdy big who has proven valuable at pushing post players off their spots, which helps against less talented bigs that traditionally punched in career nights against Golden State (Tyson Chandler springs to mind). I submit that once an offensive player puts the ball on the floor against Lee, he's toast. But he's surprisingly smart in a zone setting and closes out on 3-point shooters better than Bogut or Landry. His lateral movement is a huge problem; it's why his favorite offensive move is a spin and not a crossover. And you won't find a less interested person at contesting shots of any variety (especially for a near 7-footer). But Lee's poor man-to-man defense often out-volumes his competence in a zone, where he's closer to average.

By the way, JeBron, I'm loving your contributions to this forum thus far. Truly intelligent posters are hard to come by and you've been a great addition to this forum. +1 and here's hoping you keep chirping consistently!
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:27 am
32 wrote:
JebronLames wrote:Please don't discount these facts:
1) curry was playing on a bum ankle
2) curry had to fight through multiple screens every single possession.
3) curry was expending a ton of energy on the offensive side of the ball being double teamed etc

I'm not saying he's an elite defender, but he's better than David lee in terms of defense IMHO. He is at least playing passing lanes and trying to deflect balls to turn them into turnovers. Many times David lee does not challenge shots or protect the rim when he needs to.

I hear you, JL, but I have 2 reactions:

A) As 8th said, David Lee is no defensive stud himself, so the very notion that Curry is being compared to him (thus, residing in his same category of defensive players) is more of a detractor to Curry than affirmation of his efforts. And...

B) I'm not so sure Lee is as pathetic as everyone makes him seem. If you value the act of securing a possession, thereby ending the offense's chance of scoring, Lee does a great job grabbing defensive rebounds. The Warriors' are piss poor at surrendering offensive glass when Lee is out of the game and that results in more opportunities for the opposition (whether you account that to Lee's skill or the negative aspects of small ball, where Barnes pretends to be a stretch 4, is subjective). Lee is also a sturdy big who has proven valuable at pushing post players off their spots, which helps against less talented bigs that traditionally punched in career nights against Golden State (Tyson Chandler springs to mind). I submit that once an offensive player puts the ball on the floor against Lee, he's toast. But he's surprisingly smart in a zone setting and closes out on 3-point shooters better than Bogut or Landry. His lateral movement is a huge problem; it's why his favorite offensive move is a spin and not a crossover. And you won't find a less interested person at contesting shots of any variety (especially for a near 7-footer). But Lee's poor man-to-man defense often out-volumes his competence in a zone, where he's closer to average.

By the way, JeBron, I'm loving your contributions to this forum thus far. Truly intelligent posters are hard to come by and you've been a great addition to this forum. +1 and here's hoping you keep chirping consistently!


We are a full percent better on defensive rebounding when Lee is out. Again, not a knock on Lee, because we were the best defensive rebounding team in the league.

For sheer volume, we broke the record for most defensive rebounds in the history of the NBA for one season. Not the best rate ever, but the most in sheer volume and best rate this particular year.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:32 am
Blackfoot wrote:
32 wrote:
JebronLames wrote:Please don't discount these facts:
1) curry was playing on a bum ankle
2) curry had to fight through multiple screens every single possession.
3) curry was expending a ton of energy on the offensive side of the ball being double teamed etc

I'm not saying he's an elite defender, but he's better than David lee in terms of defense IMHO. He is at least playing passing lanes and trying to deflect balls to turn them into turnovers. Many times David lee does not challenge shots or protect the rim when he needs to.

I hear you, JL, but I have 2 reactions:

A) As 8th said, David Lee is no defensive stud himself, so the very notion that Curry is being compared to him (thus, residing in his same category of defensive players) is more of a detractor to Curry than affirmation of his efforts. And...

B) I'm not so sure Lee is as pathetic as everyone makes him seem. If you value the act of securing a possession, thereby ending the offense's chance of scoring, Lee does a great job grabbing defensive rebounds. The Warriors' are piss poor at surrendering offensive glass when Lee is out of the game and that results in more opportunities for the opposition (whether you account that to Lee's skill or the negative aspects of small ball, where Barnes pretends to be a stretch 4, is subjective). Lee is also a sturdy big who has proven valuable at pushing post players off their spots, which helps against less talented bigs that traditionally punched in career nights against Golden State (Tyson Chandler springs to mind). I submit that once an offensive player puts the ball on the floor against Lee, he's toast. But he's surprisingly smart in a zone setting and closes out on 3-point shooters better than Bogut or Landry. His lateral movement is a huge problem; it's why his favorite offensive move is a spin and not a crossover. And you won't find a less interested person at contesting shots of any variety (especially for a near 7-footer). But Lee's poor man-to-man defense often out-volumes his competence in a zone, where he's closer to average.

By the way, JeBron, I'm loving your contributions to this forum thus far. Truly intelligent posters are hard to come by and you've been a great addition to this forum. +1 and here's hoping you keep chirping consistently!


We are a full percent better on defensive rebounding when Lee is out. Again, not a knock on Lee, because we were the best defensive rebounding team in the league.

For sheer volume, we broke the record for most defensive rebounds in the history of the NBA for one season. Not the best rate ever, but the most in sheer volume and best rate this particular year.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics", BF

David Lee averaged 8.5 defensive RPG. Next closest guy (Bogut) averaged 5.5 on the defensive. Lee was matched up with a tougher lineup than most of the other 4's we played. You can't deny he was our best defensive rebounder, can you?
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:41 am
That quote was in reference to people who manipulated or mislead people with statistics either to buy things or to push an agenda. These stats happened and there is no denying that, we rebounded better with Lee on the bench.

That being said. Lee is our best individual rebounder if you don't count Bogut. However, our team rebounds better together. None of them are individually great rebounders, but the gang rebounding is much better with him off the floor. That's generally more important.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:48 am
Blackfoot wrote:That quote was in reference to people who manipulated or mislead people with statistics either to buy things or to push an agenda. These stats happened and there is no denying that, we rebounded better with Lee on the bench.

That being said. Lee is our best individual rebounder if you don't count Bogut. However, our team rebounds better together. None of them are individually great rebounders, but the gang rebounding is much better with him off the floor. That's generally more important.


Why would Lee's presence on the floor hurt "gang rebounding"?

At what point do you say, "Hey, maybe it's a coincidence."
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:59 am
Blackfoot wrote:That quote was in reference to people who manipulated or mislead people with statistics... to push an agenda.

Yes... that's what I'm saying. :wink:

To claim that the team rebounds better with Lee off the floor, based on the gospel of one statistic, is misleading. The team went from being dead-last in rebounding for 6 straight seasons to being 18th in the league after acquiring Lee. And last year, when Lee finally got some help, they were one of the top teams in the NBA at it. You can't honestly try and tell me that the team is a better defensive rebounding squad without their top rebounder. This is an example of how statistics don't tell the whole story... or, if you'd prefer, alter the story to display something that might not be true.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:13 am
Well, we are and yes, that's true. This was a trend on the Knicks as well.

It's not a knock on Lee this time around because we are the best in the league at Drebounding, but we don't rebound better with him on the floor.

You don't accidentally rebound a full percent better. It's too high of a change for it to be a coincidence or just random variation. And I am not sure how you could stats are lying about this. This is literally what happened on the floor.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:04 am
Pretty sure Bogut had the season high out of the 2 players this year.

Was it 20 rebounds vs the Nuggets in the Playoffs?

An amazing feat considering that David Lee played twice as many games as the often injured Andrew Bogut. David Lee could of only cleaned glass in the 16-18 range as a season high. Lemme Check the stats

Wow suprised David Lee had a 22 rebound game vs the Spurs in regular season.. Splash Brothers must of been having a off night from hoisting up threes!
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