Andrew Bogut's affect on the team

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:22 pm
Was really excited when I got a text saying that Bogut was returning. Kept a really close eye on him whenever he was on the court and I'm sure you guys were too. So, let's talk about it.

The good:

1) Defense - LOVED the sequence when Andrew Bogut got those 2 blocks within 10 seconds of eachother. That's the kind of plays you expect from this guy. Had four blocks in his first game back! It's very easy to see that he's going to mean a great deal to this team in terms of protecting the rim/paint.


2) Hands - Displays better hands than Biedrins and Ezeli. Was able to catch dump off passes that turned into easy points including a nice tic-tac-toe pass from Lee gave him in the first quarter. These were the kinds of passes we saw Ezeli drop all year long. He also rolls to the basket really nicely too and unlike Ezeli/Biedrins, he can finish a lot better.

3) Passing - He has good vision for a big man. I'm not ready to say that he's as crafty as Marc Gasol, and I'm not really sure if he has it in him, but he definitely sees the court well.

The bad:

1) Bogut will get us a lot of possessions by the defense he plays. We have to make sure that these forced misses turn into defensive rebounds. I'm not quite sure what's been happening the last week or two but we have not been rebounding the ball like we have the entire season. There were plenty of possessions where Bogut was able to forced misses and Toronto was able to capitalize with Arron fukken Gray. This is probably the biggest gripe that I have so far.

2) I don't believe he is 100% yet. His ankle might be free of swelling and soreness, but he is not in game shape. He was huffing and puffing after a couple of minutes. I saw on a couple of possessions where he was really late to come back on offense off of Toronto misses. He also isn't doing anything on screens. I'm not really sure if it was just the matchup that didn't warrant him showing on the screens, but I need to see his ability to jump on a screen and quickly recover on his man. Another thing that was really bizarre to me was that we weren't called for any defensive 3 seconds. I saw this at least 3 or 4 occasions. I'm not all that worried about this issue though, because he just needs a couple of games to get back into game shape.

What needs to improve:

1) I don't think we should ever play zone with Bogut on the court. I like it when we zone up with a lineup that includes Lee and Landry for a couple of possessions just to throw something different at the offense, but when Bogut on the court, we should man up. We went to the 2-2-1 zone often in the 2nd quarter with Alan Anderson on the floor and he did very well against it. He scored was able to score 8 points within 2 minutes. Generally, I think Bogut can protect the paint better when he's in man-defense as opposed a zone because he can get brought out to the corners, especially in a 2-2-1.
Last edited by 8th ave on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:58 am
Umm I'm still trying to figure out if you used the right effect.

Affect is the verb
Effect is the noun

Wish I ****ing concentrated at school.

But glad to have Beergut back.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:34 am
8th ave wrote:Was really excited when I got a text saying that Bogut was returning. Kept a really close eye on him whenever he was on the court and I'm sure you guys were too. So, let's talk about it.

The good:

1) Defense - LOVED the sequence when Andrew Bogut got those 2 blocks within 10 seconds of eachother. That's the kind of plays you expect from this guy. Had four blocks in his first game back! It's very easy to see that he's going to mean a great deal to this team in terms of protecting the rim/paint.


2) Hands - Displays better hands than Biedrins and Ezeli. Was able to catch dump off passes that turned into easy points including a nice tic-tac-toe pass from Lee gave him in the first quarter. These were the kinds of passes we saw Ezeli drop all year long. He also rolls to the basket really nicely too and unlike Ezeli/Biedrins, he can finish a lot better.

3) Passing - He has good vision for a big man. I'm not ready to say that he's as crafty as Marc Gasol, and I'm not really sure if he has it in him, but he definitely sees the court well.

The bad:

1) Bogut will get us a lot of possessions by the defense he plays. We have to make sure that these forced misses turn into defensive rebounds. I'm not quite sure what's been happening the last week or two but we have not been rebounding the ball like we have the entire season. There were plenty of possessions where Bogut was able to forced misses and Toronto was able to capitalize with Arron fukken Gray. This is probably the biggest gripe that I have so far.

2) I don't believe he is 100% yet. His ankle might be free of swelling and soreness, but he is not in game shape. He was huffing and puffing after a couple of minutes. I saw on a couple of possessions where he was really late to come back on offense off of Toronto misses. He also isn't doing anything on screens. I'm not really sure if it was just the matchup that didn't warrant him showing on the screens, but I need to see his ability to jump on a screen and quickly recover on his man. Another thing that was really bizarre to me was that we weren't called for any defensive 3 seconds. I saw this at least 3 or 4 occasions. I'm not all that worried about this issue though, because he just needs a couple of games to get back into game shape.

What needs to improve:

1) I don't think we should ever play zone with Bogut on the court. I like it when we zone up with a lineup that includes Lee and Landry for a couple of possessions just to throw something different at the offense, but when Bogut on the court, we should man up. We went to the 2-2-1 zone often in the 2nd quarter with Alan Anderson on the floor and he did very well against it. He scored was able to score 8 points within 2 minutes. Generally, I think Bogut can protect the paint better when he's in man-defense as opposed a zone because he can get brought out to the corners, especially in a 2-2-1.


I disagree, I think we should play to the weakness of our opponent. Man to man is not always the best choice. And Bogut is perfect for the zone defense because it is for smart players. Bogut can do both, he is definitely elite in both sets. So I am okay with man or zone.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:26 am
Good post above by OP, but I don't think enough credit was given for Boguts conditioning. Bogut looked noticeably trimmer and was in much better game shape than the start of the year. And this was his first game back. That is not a bad thing because it's just natural. Bogut has been training hardcore with the Ultra G Treadmill, swimming pool, elliptical, and bike. He didn't look very winded. He looked calm and very alive out there. Not saying that he's 100 percent, but if he's not, then this is a good thing. Because it means that he will be even better.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:20 am
PAWNO wrote:Umm I'm still trying to figure out if you used the right effect.

Affect is the verb
Effect is the noun

Wish I ****ing concentrated at school.

But glad to have Beergut back.


So I just read an article about the difference. They both can be a noun or verb. I still don't understand the difference. Lol.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:27 am
Blackfoot wrote:
8th ave wrote:1) I don't think we should ever play zone with Bogut on the court. I like it when we zone up with a lineup that includes Lee and Landry for a couple of possessions just to throw something different at the offense, but when Bogut on the court, we should man up. We went to the 2-2-1 zone often in the 2nd quarter with Alan Anderson on the floor and he did very well against it. He was able to score 8 points within 2 minutes. Generally, I think Bogut can protect the paint better when he's in man-defense as opposed a zone because he can get brought out to the corners, especially in a 2-2-1.


I disagree, I think we should play to the weakness of our opponent. Man to man is not always the best choice. And Bogut is perfect for the zone defense because it is for smart players. Bogut can do both, he is definitely elite in both sets. So I am okay with man or zone.


Explain to me in what cases you would zone up over man? I can think of a couple of reasons, but I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:27 am
More specifically, in what situation would you go zone over man with Bogut on the floor.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:27 am
Bogut's effect? I'll defer, again, to my scouting report:

32 wrote:STRENGTHS (+): Defensively speaking, trails only Dwight Howard as the baddest beast on the Serengeti. Timing on blocked shots borders precognition; extremely efficient shot-blocker with consistent length and weight advantages. Changes shots, commits hard fouls, clears the boards, bodies up even the biggest of ogres. One of, if not the best, centers in terms of taking charges and drawing fouls. Bonafide size; 7-feet tall, 265 pounds, supreme strength in the paint, gets off of two feet incredibly quickly and explosively, rockets out from under the cup for backboard swaying slams. Bogut is slick near the rim; comfortable scoring underhanded, tips balls with military precision, uses head fakes and ball swings to draw fouls. Among the best 7-footers at passing the ball; can drop no looks in the lane and has thrown behind the back baseline passes more than once. Overall, a prototypical center: mean, tough, ideal size, and undeniable skillset.

WEAKNESSES (-): Disappointingly poor shooter for someone who displays such touch at close range; can’t hit free throws and is seemingly best suited to put it up within 8 feet. His need to contest every shot puts him on dunk posters and in foul trouble with disturbing regularity. Not a go-to-scorer and despite his intelligence and skill, can flat out disappear on the scoreboard certain nights. Prone to missing games due to a checkered injury history that – while it has yet to be proven chronic – has followed him around never the less. Despite being a top 3 defensive center, is somewhere between 12-20 in terms of offense. Shows flashes of enforcement, but has yet to truly embrace the role of dominance.

We saw it all last night:

1, Bogut is comfortable in the paint. That opening drive hurricane he laid on Aaron Gray is his go-to move; a between the legs dribble, followed by a spin move. But a couple possessions later, Bogut laid a pretty foul looking jumper against the backboard/rim. The fact is, he's not really in there to score. He's a distraction for:

2, David Lee. I said it in the game threads, but Bogut's effect of Lee is similar to how Jack allows Curry the freedom to score without being constantly needled by a defender going after the ball. Several times last night, Bogut hit Lee on a cut, Lee got second chance points while the defense boxed out Bogut, and Lee even through it back to Andrew for a rim-rocker in the 2nd quarter. These two are INSANELY COMPATIBLE. I look for Lee to actually get better from this; and now that his jumper is slumping, it seems as good a time as ever for Bogut to return.

3, the shooters. We only saw it a couple times last night (the key one being in the 4th, on a 'round-the-horn rotation to Klay for a corner 3, but when Bogut draws double-teams (and he will against smaller defenders), the shooters will benefit because Bogut is a willing, capable, intelligent passer. Notice: of the Warriors 22 assists last night, 9 came from Bogut and Lee (and the play I just described, Bogut didn't get an assist but he sure as hell made it happen).

4, (the fun part) DEFENSIVELY. If you watched last night's game, you understand how obvious it is that Bogut is one of the most dominant forces in the paint, defensively, that the league has. He got credit for 4 blocks, but probably got more like 6, and changed at least 10 - and that's not even counting when Caulderon and DeRozan backed it out instead of taking it to Bogut inside. He gives the team the luxury of making other teams miss buckets that are typically high percentage; Andrew blocks a lot of them and the ones he doesn't get to, he'll either change, smother, foul, or make the guy miss looking for him. He's also got quick enough hands to steal inside passed, he strips balls loose, he takes a TON of charges... The guy is just a joy to watch on the defensive end. He also gives you the luxury of playing zone by allowing 4 men to rotate while he camps out inside. Bogut is one of the rare bigs who can defend 3 guys in the middle by himself (hint: Howard can't do that).

I reiterate, if this man can finally stay healthy... Well, let me put it this way: we might not even notice Steph Curry miss any games while Bogut's around.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:29 am
32 wrote:Bogut's effect? I'll defer, again, to my scouting report:

32 wrote:STRENGTHS (+): Defensively speaking, trails only Dwight Howard as the baddest beast on the Serengeti. Timing on blocked shots borders precognition; extremely efficient shot-blocker with consistent length and weight advantages. Changes shots, commits hard fouls, clears the boards, bodies up even the biggest of ogres. One of, if not the best, centers in terms of taking charges and drawing fouls. Bonafide size; 7-feet tall, 265 pounds, supreme strength in the paint, gets off of two feet incredibly quickly and explosively, rockets out from under the cup for backboard swaying slams. Bogut is slick near the rim; comfortable scoring underhanded, tips balls with military precision, uses head fakes and ball swings to draw fouls. Among the best 7-footers at passing the ball; can drop no looks in the lane and has thrown behind the back baseline passes more than once. Overall, a prototypical center: mean, tough, ideal size, and undeniable skillset.

WEAKNESSES (-): Disappointingly poor shooter for someone who displays such touch at close range; can’t hit free throws and is seemingly best suited to put it up within 8 feet. His need to contest every shot puts him on dunk posters and in foul trouble with disturbing regularity. Not a go-to-scorer and despite his intelligence and skill, can flat out disappear on the scoreboard certain nights. Prone to missing games due to a checkered injury history that – while it has yet to be proven chronic – has followed him around never the less. Despite being a top 3 defensive center, is somewhere between 12-20 in terms of offense. Shows flashes of enforcement, but has yet to truly embrace the role of dominance.

We saw it all last night:

1, Bogut is comfortable in the paint. That opening drive hurricane he laid on Aaron Gray is his go-to move; a between the legs dribble, followed by a spin move. But a couple possessions later, Bogut laid a pretty foul looking jumper against the backboard/rim. The fact is, he's not really in there to score. He's a distraction for:

2, David Lee. I said it in the game threads, but Bogut's effect of Lee is similar to how Jack allows Curry the freedom to score without being constantly needled by a defender going after the ball. Several times last night, Bogut hit Lee on a cut, Lee got second chance points while the defense boxed out Bogut, and Lee even through it back to Andrew for a rim-rocker in the 2nd quarter. These two are INSANELY COMPATIBLE. I look for Lee to actually get better from this; and now that his jumper is slumping, it seems as good a time as ever for Bogut to return.

3, the shooters. We only saw it a couple times last night (the key one being in the 4th, on a 'round-the-horn rotation to Klay for a corner 3, but when Bogut draws double-teams (and he will against smaller defenders), the shooters will benefit because Bogut is a willing, capable, intelligent passer. Notice: of the Warriors 22 assists last night, 9 came from Bogut and Lee (and the play I just described, Bogut didn't get an assist but he sure as hell made it happen).

4, (the fun part) DEFENSIVELY. If you watched last night's game, you understand how obvious it is that Bogut is one of the most dominant forces in the paint, defensively, that the league has. He got credit for 4 blocks, but probably got more like 6, and changed at least 10 - and that's not even counting when Caulderon and DeRozan backed it out instead of taking it to Bogut inside. He gives the team the luxury of making other teams miss buckets that are typically high percentage; Andrew blocks a lot of them and the ones he doesn't get to, he'll either change, smother, foul, or make the guy miss looking for him. He's also got quick enough hands to steal inside passed, he strips balls loose, he takes a TON of charges... The guy is just a joy to watch on the defensive end. He also gives you the luxury of playing zone by allowing 4 men to rotate while he camps out inside. Bogut is one of the rare bigs who can defend 3 guys in the middle by himself (hint: Howard can't do that).

I reiterate, if this man can finally stay healthy... Well, let me put it this way: we might not even notice Steph Curry miss any games while Bogut's around.


I agree with you post 100%!

My only gripe with this Warrior team is pointed at the big men, Biedrens and Tyler (I give Ezeli a pass, mainly because he is a rookie), who had (still have) the opportunity to step up their game while Bogut was out. I cannot accept the lack of offensive improvement in Biedrens and the lack of improvement in Tyler's game (from last year). These two need to realize that their only chance to get significant playing time was/is while Bogut is rehabbing the ankle. I have seen Biedrens do some good things on the defensive end of the court; however, when he is on the court, the team is pretty much playing four-on-five on offense and Tyler just looks like a very poor man's Dwight Howard. It would help this team so much if these two could just improve their individual and collective games by a mere 10%.

With Bogut in the game, this Warrior team can look to play better transition, fast-break, basketball. He, Bogut, provides the strong interior defensive presence, rebounds well, and can make the strong outlet pass to trigger the break. I look for Barnes and Thompson to be the guys who most benefit from this brand of basketball as they will surely be able to get out on the break and finish.

Lastly, it was just so nice to see the team have its big man back last night!
Last edited by uptempo on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:31 pm
8th ave wrote:More specifically, in what situation would you go zone over man with Bogut on the floor.


With teams like the Heat. Heat have always struggled vs big teams that play zone. I can't name other teams off the top of my head right now, but I very clearly remember the 2011 finals right now with Tyson Chandler, the Mavs, and zone defense.

So teams that slash a lot make sense to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:48 pm
I'm going to be totally honest and say that I do not know much about the 1-2-2 zone. I've seen it plenty times this year, and for the most part, we have done well by it. I haven't paid close attention to what kind of line up it works against, but my gut feeling tells me that it's better if we have mobile players on the low post instead of Bogut. I've already mentioned how it burned us when we used it against Toronto. It wasn't particularly Bogut's fault that Alan Anderson strung off 8 points, but it is what it is.

I also highly doubt Bogut's abilty to extend out to the corners. If you think about it from just a hypothetical standpoint, just think about where he's going to be when he's guarding opposing bigs when we're in a man-to-man set up; on the block. The closer and longer he stays near the paint, the better it is for us because that'll give him opportunities to give weak side help. He can do that in the zone too, but there's the risk of him having to come out on the corners, which is something that Landry and Lee is better suited for. Now you can turn it around and say that Bogut will have to come out on screens if we're in man, and you'd be right. I think the biggest difference here is would you rather have someone shooting the ball coming off the screen, or would you rather have someone catch and shoot in the corner? Personally, I'd prefer man defense, that way you force your man into a more difficult shot, but I guess this all just falls on who we play and matchups.

I'll stand firm though. When Bogut is on the floor, we should be in man. We'll see though. I'll gladly admit fault if I'm wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:58 pm
Stairway Man wrote:Good post above by OP, but I don't think enough credit was given for Boguts conditioning. Bogut looked noticeably trimmer and was in much better game shape than the start of the year. And this was his first game back. That is not a bad thing because it's just natural. Bogut has been training hardcore with the Ultra G Treadmill, swimming pool, elliptical, and bike. He didn't look very winded. He looked calm and very alive out there. Not saying that he's 100 percent, but if he's not, then this is a good thing. Because it means that he will be even better.


I just didn't see the same thing. I will definitely give him credit for the work he's put in to get back on the court, but I definitely do not see him being 100% in terms of game shape. This isn't even really a bad thing. As he inches closer and closer to game shape, he'll be even more effective. I think he's capable of putting up double-doubles consistently with 2.5 blocks a game. Back to his conditioning though, it just wasn't entirely there. Jim Barrnett was praising him on his stamina, but after 4 minutes I saw him huffing and puffing. He didn't come out on screen at all, and it was Calderon who was coming off of them and he's a considerable threat shooting the ball. I also saw on many occasions that he was late getting back on offense.

I know I sound like I'm not satisfied, but this couldn't be further from the truth. I'm ecstatic about his first game back. He was magnificent. These are just simply my observations. In time, I think he will erase all these concerns and I personally considerate a fact that all of his abilities will outweigh his shortcomings. In the mean time I'm just calling it how I see it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:43 am
If you are talking about Bogut's performance as a measure of how he is doing you would use, effect.

If you are talking about how his performance influences the team you use, affect.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:00 pm
loyaltyisacurse wrote:If you are talking about Bogut's performance as a measure of how he is doing you would use, effect.

If you are talking about how his performance influences the team you use, affect.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:59 pm
Effect
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