Rookie appreciation post...

Discuss anything related to Golden State Warriors basketball here

Moderators: Mr. Crackerz, JREED, Guybrush, hobbes

User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:16 pm
Right now, I could make a really good argument that Green should start in front of Barnes. The only thing Barnes has over Green is scoring, but right now he's not giving us that much of a spark in terms of gettin buckets.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image

All Star
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:03 am
Location: san jose
Poster Credit: 17
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:45 pm
8th ave wrote:Right now, I could make a really good argument that Green should start in front of Barnes. The only thing Barnes has over Green is scoring, but right now he's not giving us that much of a spark in terms of gettin buckets.


There is definetly a good arguement to have Green start. He brings so much energy when he is on the floor and you actually see the effort (sweating, running hard, breathing hard). There was a game I saw him on the bench breathing super hard, sweat dripping, it was impressive.

I still think Barnes starting is the best way to go, having Green coming of the bench with the rest dubstitutes is the way to go right now. I am hoping Barnes gets the feel, and becomes as assertive as Green has been playing.

Coming out of college the word was Green does things to make his team win, in the NBA he is doing the same thing. Many teams passed on him because he didn't do one thing great but instead he has a mixture of things he does well, but its his effort and feel of the game that makes him so value-able.
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13533
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:08 pm
The best word to describe Draymond is solid.

That being said, Barnes has had 2 games already where he looked like the future franchise player. He's spotty, but his ceiling is absolutely higher than Green's. Draymond shows up every night, but when Harrison Barnes has it cranked on, he's a handful for even established defenders.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image

All Star
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:03 am
Location: san jose
Poster Credit: 17
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:23 pm
Solid is a good word to describe him. I think Barnes just needs to put it together, he obviously has all the skills, he just needs to be more assertive. He will develop, I mean it took time for Rudy Gay to develop, but Barnes will have spurts where he shows signs of of stardom, and other times he will disapear, but do little things like defense, rebound, etc.
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:30 am
Green is bigger, smarter, and plays better defense than Barnes and that is exactly what we need at the 3 spot. I don't mind Barnes starting, but in games where we're playing offensive power houses or just power houses in general, I would like Green to finish out the game as he has been doing lately. Before the season began, I was worried that Bogut was going to be the only defensive presence and that would put a lot of pressure on him to anchor the defense constantly, but with Green on the roster that's not going to be a problem. Green can handle your perimeter oriented players and Bogut can lock down the paint. The amazing thing is this guy is just a rookie and I've seen many defensive plays that changes games from him already. Where he plays great D and he'll get the rebound; I've seen that by him a couple of times already in this young season. With players like Green and Bogut healthy, we have a potent offensive game with a defense to match and fuk am I excited.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image
User avatar
Moderator
Posts: 2425
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Poster Credit: 34
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:58 am
I'm not impressed with Green's defense, the outside defense to be precise. He is great guarding the bigger and slower 3's and some 4's, but I've seen him a lot of times being late to close in on the shooter and contest the shot. That part, in my book, goes to Barnes. He is really undervalued here for some reason. He is not just a scorer. He plays good D on the outside, and is a great rebounder. He is just being yanked out of the game too early, and I have a feeling that know he is afraid to do something, cause it might end up as a bad thing, and that he will get benched. Short leash on him for some reason.

Green on the other hand is the guy that is expected to bring in the toughness, to give it his all. Not to score, or anything important, just real physical play. So, he can't do a lot of wrong. But you can't start a guy like that. That's like McGuire almost. His offense is not good. He can make a three pointer, but he misses a lot, and he is not a shooter. But, he doesn't have a back to the basket game as well (Harrison does). I don't wanna pull the trigger on starting Green, because he is running all over the court, but, on offense, he is actually the odd man out. I'm gonna say that because of that he was forgotten on that last play when he scored.

And, when Green is in the game we are in the minus side of the points, and we were in plus when Harrison was in. That should also tell you something about the D. It's not all in hustle, and sweating. You can't teach talent, and Harrison has it way more than Green.

And don't get me wrong, I like Green, I just don't see how you guys can so easily be over him, for something that is to say the least, pedestrian. There's a ton of players who will give their best on D, cause they can't do much more.
Image
Image
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:58 am
Guybrush wrote:I'm not impressed with Green's defense, the outside defense to be precise. He is great guarding the bigger and slower 3's and some 4's, but I've seen him a lot of times being late to close in on the shooter and contest the shot. That part, in my book, goes to Barnes. He is really undervalued here for some reason. He is not just a scorer. He plays good D on the outside, and is a great rebounder. He is just being yanked out of the game too early, and I have a feeling that know he is afraid to do something, cause it might end up as a bad thing, and that he will get benched. Short leash on him for some reason.

Green on the other hand is the guy that is expected to bring in the toughness, to give it his all. Not to score, or anything important, just real physical play. So, he can't do a lot of wrong. But you can't start a guy like that. That's like McGuire almost. His offense is not good. He can make a three pointer, but he misses a lot, and he is not a shooter. But, he doesn't have a back to the basket game as well (Harrison does). I don't wanna pull the trigger on starting Green, because he is running all over the court, but, on offense, he is actually the odd man out. I'm gonna say that because of that he was forgotten on that last play when he scored.

And, when Green is in the game we are in the minus side of the points, and we were in plus when Harrison was in. That should also tell you something about the D. It's not all in hustle, and sweating. You can't teach talent, and Harrison has it way more than Green.

And don't get me wrong, I like Green, I just don't see how you guys can so easily be over him, for something that is to say the least, pedestrian. There's a ton of players who will give their best on D, cause they can't do much more.


Nope. Don't agree with you. Green had the duty, on the most part, of guarding the NBA's best player. I won't concede that Green can guard Durant though, because he's a nightmare for anyone in the NBA, but you're undervaluing Green's perimeter defense and giving Barnes a bit too much credit.

And in terms of closing out on shooters, why would you be so critical of that? You want people to live out on the perimeter. How many times have you seen Barnes change or block a jump shot? Things like that rarely happen. Green on the other hand, has this uncanny ability to stay with a defender on a drive without fouling. It's one of the hardest things to do in the NBA or in basketball period, to keep on retreating as someone is making their way to the basket and still change the shot without fouling. On top of that I've seen him play good defense, change a shot without fouling, AND get the rebound all in the same play. Also how many times have you seen Barnes effectively give weak side help/take a charge? He may have once or twice but nothing that stands out like Green's defensive ability.

And Barnes has yet to be "yanked" out by Jackson. If you haven't noticed, the last coupe of game we've called plays specifically for Barnes. Even against Miami there were a couple of possessions where he went 1 on 1 with arguably the best defensive player in Lebron. Put up one or two dumb shots and he did not get yanked. He hasn't closed out too many games either because our closing lineup is Jack, Curry, Thompson, Landry, and Lee, and the only reason why Landry was benched in favor of Green was Green was more effective in that game.

And rebounds? I would not give Barnes the edge over Green. I also wouldn't go as far as saying one is better than the other either, because Green can rebound too. To me, you just sound a little paranoid that we might be hurting Barnes' confidence, but dude is a rookie, he'll be fine. Jackson has given Barnes a lot of leigh way, but right now Green is playing much better basketball.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image
User avatar
Moderator
Posts: 2425
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Poster Credit: 34
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:32 pm
I just don't agree. You completely neglected the fact that we are in the plus when Barnes is on the court, and in minus with Green. That also tells quite a lot. I've seen Harrison's defense, he stopped, when he played more than 18 minutes, some pretty good offensive players, if you remember. And on top of that, he managed to give them hell on the other side.

So, now you're gonna say that the guy who shot 2-5 from the field, or 4-7, or something like that, cause those are basically his stats (or close to it) in recent games, is staking tupid shots, and the guy who shot 0-9, and now made a shot that every sane person would make in the last game, "is playing much better basketball"? How exactly, just because of the D?

The thing is, I never said that Green is bad, I'm just saying that you are jumping the gun here. I'm not paranoid, you're just wanting to see a change for no good reason than the fact that you like Green. That's it. No other argument there is to be had here. Green is a great defender, but Harrison is a good one too, and the difference Green has on D is not even close to the difference that Harrison has on offense. Nothing paranoid there, just facts. Barnes can't do a lot with few plays he gets, but he is trying. When Klay was off, Harrison showed his potential, now there just isn't enough balls for everyone. We are lucky that we have so many options, so when someone else has bad night again, you know you can count on Harrison to step up.

Rebounds are a toss up, and we should be happy with that, cause we were god awful last season. I would be the happiest person if we got two great SFs in the same draft. I just can't see Draymond as a better player. He just doesn't bring as much to the game as Barnes does. We just take Barnes' scoring ability away, cause we have Curry, Lee, Klay, Jack and Landry that will eat up most of the shots on offense. Harrison is a rookie, and I believe he is respecting his older teammates by taking his time a bit.

I would like to hear someone else say something about his as well. It's a nice talk to have for a change.
Image
Image

All Star
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:03 am
Location: san jose
Poster Credit: 17
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:10 pm
I don't know, but going on a limb here but I think 8th is leaning more towards Green, and Guy towards Barnes.

Its a bit early guys to make certainty claims on rookies since the season is still some what young, I think we are going to need more sample size to make those conclusion. And the great thing so far is there so much more positives coming individually from both of these players that I think you guys are nit picking, I am liking what I see from both. I know you guys have payed more attention of to their play as I have only seen a few amount of games due to school.

Barnes has more potential if he puts it together.

Green is that glue guy that every team needs.
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:23 pm
Guybrush wrote:I just don't agree. You completely neglected the fact that we are in the plus when Barnes is on the court, and in minus with Green. That also tells quite a lot. I've seen Harrison's defense, he stopped, when he played more than 18 minutes, some pretty good offensive players, if you remember. And on top of that, he managed to give them hell on the other side.

So, now you're gonna say that the guy who shot 2-5 from the field, or 4-7, or something like that, cause those are basically his stats (or close to it) in recent games, is staking tupid shots, and the guy who shot 0-9, and now made a shot that every sane person would make in the last game, "is playing much better basketball"? How exactly, just because of the D?

The thing is, I never said that Green is bad, I'm just saying that you are jumping the gun here. I'm not paranoid, you're just wanting to see a change for no good reason than the fact that you like Green. That's it. No other argument there is to be had here. Green is a great defender, but Harrison is a good one too, and the difference Green has on D is not even close to the difference that Harrison has on offense. Nothing paranoid there, just facts. Barnes can't do a lot with few plays he gets, but he is trying. When Klay was off, Harrison showed his potential, now there just isn't enough balls for everyone. We are lucky that we have so many options, so when someone else has bad night again, you know you can count on Harrison to step up.

Rebounds are a toss up, and we should be happy with that, cause we were god awful last season. I would be the happiest person if we got two great SFs in the same draft. I just can't see Draymond as a better player. He just doesn't bring as much to the game as Barnes does. We just take Barnes' scoring ability away, cause we have Curry, Lee, Klay, Jack and Landry that will eat up most of the shots on offense. Harrison is a rookie, and I believe he is respecting his older teammates by taking his time a bit.

I would like to hear someone else say something about his as well. It's a nice talk to have for a change.


You're right. I didn't consider +/- but there's never one stat that tells the entire story and basing who is more effective based on +/- is naive. But hell, since you're the one who used it, it is actually Green who has the better +/- than Barnes for the entire season.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus ... m=Warriors
Green is at +22 for the season and Barnes +3. So just based on your barometer and your barometer alone, Green is more effective with or without the offensive prowess.

I conceded in my previous post that Barnes was the superior offensive player. You were talking about how Barnes is on a short leash and I was simply pointing out that he hasn't been yanked for any reason at all, because Jackson, unlike Nellie or previous coaches, gives his players a lot of leigh way. I cited examples in the Miami game where Barnes went head up with Lebron and got really bad looks, and Jackson still let him play. Where you get this notion that he gets pulled too early you have to be more specific about because I don't see it.

And wth? Who said I wanted a change?
8th ave wrote:I don't mind Barnes starting, but in games where we're playing offensive power houses or just power houses in general, I would like Green to finish out the game as he has been doing lately.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:27 pm
Also I never said that Green was more effective offensively. I didn't say it nor do i feel that way. I just said I could make a good argument that he should start, but I don't even really care.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image
User avatar
Moderator
Posts: 2425
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Poster Credit: 34
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:31 am
My fault, I wasn't clear enough. Can't blame you for something I haven't said actually. I meant during the last few games, where Draymond got more playing time. Might be that he is still in a plus, more than Harrison, but he is now actually playing opposing team's starters. He padded up those stats a bit during the start of the season, when Landry and Jack were playing lights out, and he got 5-7 minutes during that period against second team.

What I meant about leash was that he isn't getting to the bench for missed shot or something trivial like that, that would be plain stupid, but that he isn't staying in the game long enough. He is not playing even half of the game now...if he doesn't "WOW" Jackson, he won't stay on the court. That's how I see it. So, he needs to do a lot, in a small time he has on the floor during the first run.

OK, you said that case could be made for Green to be the starter. Why say that, if you don't think it's for the better? Never mind, I just don't agree. By saying that, it's partially like you said that Harrison is not good enough, which is not true. For time he is on, he is doing just ok. Nothing more for now, but he is fine. I can't see Draymond outplaying him. You say that you agreed that Harrison is better offensively, yet the only thing you said at first was that he took some stupid shots...so I guess that's what took out of it. I just think that Harrison's defense in undervalued, and Green is getting too much love cause he is a fighter, and we all know that guys like that are well liked on the team, always. He is a better defender, but he is far worse on offense.

I don't care either, like I said, I'm happy we got two good players. I just believe that Harrison is the better player, that's all. Draymond played less minutes last night, and I think those minutes are the minutes he should be getting, 14-18, or something like that. And Harrison needs to play around 30, or 30+.

We can just agree to disagree...and the time will tell us if we made fair judgments. :)
Image
Image
User avatar
Moderator
Posts: 2425
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Poster Credit: 34
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:36 am
And if it's for the closing of the game, it's fine. I would actually like to mix those two, depending on the situations.

The thing I actually don't like is that we play too much of Curry-Jack combo. That's too much of Monta flashback. Jack is not really that far off Ellis when it comes to ball hogging, taking mid-range jumpers within the first seconds of the offense, etc. And I just don't like small ball, with small guards. I would play them less together, and in general, I think Jack is playing too many minutes.
Image
Image
User avatar
Moderator
Posts: 2425
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Poster Credit: 34
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:45 am
Oh, and Jefferson is going to take time from both of them now.
Image
Image
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3621
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 am
Location: Oakland California
Poster Credit: 35
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:32 pm
Guybrush wrote:My fault, I wasn't clear enough. Can't blame you for something I haven't said actually. I meant during the last few games, where Draymond got more playing time. Might be that he is still in a plus, more than Harrison, but he is now actually playing opposing team's starters. He padded up those stats a bit during the start of the season, when Landry and Jack were playing lights out, and he got 5-7 minutes during that period against second team.

What I meant about leash was that he isn't getting to the bench for missed shot or something trivial like that, that would be plain stupid, but that he isn't staying in the game long enough. He is not playing even half of the game now...if he doesn't "WOW" Jackson, he won't stay on the court. That's how I see it. So, he needs to do a lot, in a small time he has on the floor during the first run.

OK, you said that case could be made for Green to be the starter. Why say that, if you don't think it's for the better? Never mind, I just don't agree. By saying that, it's partially like you said that Harrison is not good enough, which is not true. For time he is on, he is doing just ok. Nothing more for now, but he is fine. I can't see Draymond outplaying him. You say that you agreed that Harrison is better offensively, yet the only thing you said at first was that he took some stupid shots...so I guess that's what took out of it. I just think that Harrison's defense in undervalued, and Green is getting too much love cause he is a fighter, and we all know that guys like that are well liked on the team, always. He is a better defender, but he is far worse on offense.

I don't care either, like I said, I'm happy we got two good players. I just believe that Harrison is the better player, that's all. Draymond played less minutes last night, and I think those minutes are the minutes he should be getting, 14-18, or something like that. And Harrison needs to play around 30, or 30+.

We can just agree to disagree...and the time will tell us if we made fair judgments. :)


So if Barnes' +/- numbers are skewed because he plays starters, why is it that Curry and Lee are able to squeak out significantly higher +/- ratings? And Green's +/- is padded? That's a little unfair too. Right now Green has a better effect on the game than Barnes. Cut and dry.
From "we believe", to "we belong", to "we gon beatcho ass!"

Image
Image
Image

Image
PreviousNext

Return to Warriors Basketball

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron