San Franciso 49ers thread

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:40 pm
I agree with Guy's opinion that many other QBs would have been damaged goods after going through what Alex did. I am honestly torn - I know I sound like I'm a Kaep supporter here, but I'm really just defending him - no more than I would/have with Alex.

Guy, let me ask you this: If Kaep goes out there and puts up about the same numbers against the Rams (65% - 75%, 250+ yards, 1-3 TD, 0-1 INT, 0-1 sacks) and gets the win, will that be enough to convince you? If not, how many games will it take performing at that average for you? Just curious.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:15 pm
If he performs like Alex did, what's the point then? Just dissing the guy for fun? So you could place another one who would put up the same numbers? I would be offended by that, if it was me, don't know about you. That's like wanting to be a friend with your ex who you just found out is cheating on you. I wouldn't hold grudge against Alex if he doesn't want to play for the 49ers ever again...even if Kaep gets injured in the near future.

I'll be convinced after he ends the season well. And above Alex's numbers. I just don't like teams that treat their players like this, and Alex has been through a lot before. I understand this is business now, but I always leaned towards the teams that were more about companionship, team game, chemistry, than Machiavelli's method. That's why I hated the Pats. I kind of feel bad that 49ers are showing that bad side, right after they got back to the top, and everything was clicking, really. That's all. I might have the wrong view about that, but that's something that matters to me. I love those stories like in old movies, where friendship and teamwork are still valued...or what Gene Hackman would say in "The Replacements" - "you have a heart".
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:54 am
lol'd at The Replacements quote...

So you ask, "If he performs like Alex did, what's the point then?" Well here are a few reasons why Kaep should be the guy, even if he puts up the same numbers and has the same success as Alex for the rest of the season:

1) Money - Alex's cap figure for the 2013 season: $10,000,000. Kaep's: 1,297,532. That's 8,702,468 reasons why.

2) Age/Physical Toll - While Alex (28 years old) is only 3 years older than Kaep (25), he has 7 season playing in the league (didn't play in 2008). Kaep basically has 3 games vs Alex's 79. So a meager age gap and you could argue that the experience of Alex's additional PT out-weights the physical toll (I would strongly disagree), but I'm going to say that this is a big plus for Kaep who has much more football still ahead of him than Alex does at this point. Alex has been injury prone and has missed a significant amount of PT/games.

3) Size - Alex: 6'4", 212 lbs. Kaep: 6'5", 233. Bigger, stronger players get injured less - just a simple, well-known fact.

4) Athleticism - I don't think I need to explain this one.

5) Arm Strength - This one is played out and obvious. I don't really thing there is much of an issue with Alex's ability to get the ball down field, but I do think that there is a discrepancy in the two QBs' willingness to pull the trigger. There is no doubt that Kaep can throw the cover off the ball (evident when he hurt Moss's hand) and has a bigger arm.

6) I would argue that Kaep was likely a better college player as well - same conference, worse team, worse coach. Alex gets a slight nod in passing stats, but Kaep's ground numbers are insane.

7) Upside - This is also a speculatory assertion, but I feel like the popular belief (even by those who'd rather see Alex under center) is that Kaep has a higher ceiling. I obviously agree.

All signs point to Kaep being the QB of the future, if that's true and he is about as good as Alex, then it makes more sense to start him now.

Look, I think I've misrepresented myself and have been misunderstood when it comes to this debate. I am not blindly hating on Alex. I am not an Alex hater by any means - actually it's the exact opposite (go back a few years in the thread). I cringed when I heard that Kaep was getting the start against the Bears. I'm a 9er fan 1st and foremost and I believe that at this point, going with Kaep is what is best for the team. I didn't think that before the Saints game though - I thought that we should have went with Alex and really tested him, and if he didn't impress, give Kaep the nod for the Rams, but Harbaugh had different plans. Like I've said before, now it's too late. We cannot go back to Alex unless Kaep gets hurt or way under-performs. So anyone that calls themselves a 9er fan, at this point, better start rooting for no. 7.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:12 am
I thought that quote might be funny. :)

Fair enough. I see some of your points, and they are valid, but some things I just don't see nor agree with, yet. I wanna see more. Like that upside...that's one of the things that is always used when people wanna make a statement, and that can't be proved. And like I said, it's not that I'm that upset that Alex was demoted, it was how it was done, and for what reasons, or lack of. I am a Niners fan, I just don't like how they do business now...and I started questioning Harbaugh's behavior and ego ever since that incident with Schwartz. Not a fan of his as I was before, cause he doesn't look to me like a really good guy, or a likeable person. One season and he is already full of himself, or at least that's how I see him, more and more with time.

And most of those things, size, less years in the NFL, etc. it's all speculation. You can't say for sure tha he will last longer, it is pure guessing, and that's my problem with all of this mostly, it's all based on some potential, and guessing. At the moment, Alex is better, and I would like to win now, that's it. And speaking of size and athleticism...Kaep runs a lot, far more than Alex, and ask Vick, Young and other QBs who do, how durable they are, if we are going to speculate.

I don't have anything to add, I'll wait for some games to pass, and with some new material, we can continue this conversation. Which is good...though it is a bit weird when you are the only person representing one side, lol.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:42 pm
C'mon now, Guy. On the RealGM 49ers board, they used to refer to all those things you listed as "Alexcuses".

It was always something out of his control, according to Smith's supporters. The coach, the system, the playing time, the coordinators, the o-line, the lack of options, the receivers, etc, etc, etc. It became so commonplace to deflect blame away from Smith that, again, people came up with a word for it. And Alexcuses don't work on me.

The fact is, Smith has been successful under ONE guy: Jim Harbaugh. He flashed decency under Norv Turner's offense and a popular Alexcuse was to blame Norv's departure for why Smith fell apart again. But as far as consistent play, Alex has only ever been above-average during Harbaugh's tenure. Before that, he put together good drives, good quarters, sometimes even good halves. But Smith couldn't play well for an entire game before Harbaugh, let alone multiple games at a time. Jim Harbaugh transformed EVERYTHING about this 49ers team. Frankly speaking, Alex Smith needs the Niners more than they need him. Show me Alex Smith taking another team to the NFC or AFC title game and I'll give it up for him. But all this business about him being the 3rd best QB in the league? Strictly for the birds, IMO. Kaepernick can be, at worst, Smith's equal and, at best, something extremely special for the 49ers.

And, just for my own conscience, I have to say this...

Smith puts together ONE 4th quarter drive against New Orleans in the playoffs, and suddenly he's the guy everyone wants to build the offense around?? I'm sorry, but Smith did jack sh*t for 6 of 8 years. His track record is a year and a half long. The average NFL career lasts less than 4 seasons. You're gonna tell me we need to stymie a promising young athletic QB with a much higher ceiling to accommodate an aging disappointment whose just finally started to figure out how to play in this league on his 7TH SEASON?

Look, I get it. NFL QB's are like NBA centers. They need a little time to hold the clipboard and marinate before they're fully ready. Some can come out and play right away, but most need time to develop. But 7 years to develop is insane.

I don't trust Alex Smith. I trust Jim Harbaugh. If Harbaugh wants Kaep, I'd follow JH off a cliff at this juncture. And based on Kaep's first 3 games started, I have seen nothing to make me question Harbaugh's wisdom.

Kaepernick is a big play QB. He makes passes outside the pocket 24.3% of the time, Alex only 8.8%. And outta the pocket, his completion percentage is 61% (11-for-18), compared to Alex at 47% (9-for-19). Kaep's first-down-percentage outside the pocket is 50%, he's thrown 3 TD's, and has yet to get picked off. Alex' numbers are 21.1%, with 1 touchdown and 1 interception. I realize throwing outside the pocket isn't everything, but mobility is an enormous weapon for an NFL QB and when you're able to move like Kaep, it sure helps to be able to throw on the fly like he can. The above numbers are incredible for a guy outside his protected pocket. Most quarterbacks are like fish outta water when the pressure's on; Kaepernick gets better.

Time will tell if Kaep or Alex, ultimately, prove to be the better pick. But I'll say this: Alex sure didn't set the bar very high, so Colin has an excellent chance, at the very least, of equaling Smith's first 8-years of production. If Kaepernick is solid for 2 straight years, he'll have surpassed anything Smith ever did in San Francisco.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:58 pm
Alex didn't show he can play because of Harbs, it was mainly because he had a team, for the first time. And saying those are Alexcuses might have had some weight if Smith never played like he did last and this year, which showed that those things actually do matter, and that once that got fixed he played good football. So, I don't wanna waste anyones time on something that is only called as an excuse if it is talked about Alex. Ask Peyton if he needs a good OL, or if he would have preferred to learn every year a new system, and if he would get one to know that good now, if he wasted all those years on crap new systems.

Also, Alex wasn't developing for even one year, let alone 6. He was thrown into the lions cage when he was 21 years old, with awful protection and no viable weapons. He regressed because of injuries and coaches that blamed him.

Tomorrow will be a first step for Harbaugh and Kaep in making me wrong, so, just wait guys, no need to bomb me as much with some past things that Alex proved were behind him, and that he is better than that. I thought at least that was clear, and what the reasons were for that play in his first few seasons. Really, no need to go back to that, something else is the question now. And Alex is far from a boy that threw 1TD and 11 INTs in his first season.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:23 am
Forget all this quaterback controversy.... where is our kicker? Ackers goes from amazingly good one season, to missing several critical game winning field goals this season. What happened to him? When do we bring in another kicker?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:46 am
If I'm not mistaken he is struggling with some sort of injury. So, settling for a 50+ yard long FG was not a good idea, and it looked like they didn't wanna gamble with Kaep in the end, so they gave Gore two runs up the middle for short gains. It's like nothing has been learned from that tie we had.

And I'm not gonna be a bad sport and say I told you so, mostly because it is a bit early. But, I just wanna point out that defenses made adjustments, they had film on Kaep now, and they are shutting him down. We are averaging less yards, less points...and we are not moving the chain that well. Clock management was bad, and we spent few timeouts because we couldn't get the play in time. All I'm saying is, we are going through the growing pains of a young QB, and we had one that was on track to give us a first round bye. There was no need for this what so ever. I can just hope that is now being more evident. By you guys, and especially by Harbaugh. Though, I feel that his ego is too big to allow him to switch back. I think he wants prove that he wasn't wrong. Hopefully, that won't cost us the POs, cause the 'Hawks won last night.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:55 pm
Guybrush wrote:If I'm not mistaken he is struggling with some sort of injury. So, settling for a 50+ yard long FG was not a good idea, and it looked like they didn't wanna gamble with Kaep in the end, so they gave Gore two runs up the middle for short gains. It's like nothing has been learned from that tie we had.

And I'm not gonna be a bad sport and say I told you so, mostly because it is a bit early. But, I just wanna point out that defenses made adjustments, they had film on Kaep now, and they are shutting him down. We are averaging less yards, less points...and we are not moving the chain that well. Clock management was bad, and we spent few timeouts because we couldn't get the play in time. All I'm saying is, we are going through the growing pains of a young QB, and we had one that was on track to give us a first round bye. There was no need for this what so ever. I can just hope that is now being more evident. By you guys, and especially by Harbaugh. Though, I feel that his ego is too big to allow him to switch back. I think he wants prove that he wasn't wrong. Hopefully, that won't cost us the POs, cause the 'Hawks won last night.

All true and your concerns are shared by myself, to one degree or another, as they have been since the beginning of this fiasco.

I have no doubt that Kaep will ultimately be the better QB out of the two, but the timing is unfortunate as we are clearly a top 3 team in the league regardless who is at QB. The one reservation I've had about give Kaep the nod now is what if he does struggle to the point where, despite our top D and run game, his mistakes equal losses.

No excuses here for the way that game played out, but that call was awful. I totally cosign GSW's concern over our aging kicker - he has prevented us from winning at least 2 games and was a massive contributing factor to us losing to the Giants (2 missed FGs that would have made it 9-10 at half, would have prevented us from going into pass mode and Alex getting INT happy, plus a 4th down conversion attempt that would have been a 51 yard FG attempt that we didn't try because of the point deficit and a lack of trust in Akers.)

The debate rages on. I honestly can't say what the right call is at this point, but I don't think that Harbs is just going with CK because of his ego. If that were the case, he would have made the call a while back or at least decisively chose CK two weeks ago. I think he is just a guy, like all of us, that wants whatever option at QB that gives us the best chance to win games. I think he is probably just as confused as us and is second guessing himself way more than any fan or member of the media is. Not to beat up on you or anything Guy, but I truly believe that he is far more humble than you're giving him credit for - him owning the responsibility for that bad playcall, that resulted in the turnover, is evidence of that.

I'm with 32 - I will not question Harbaugh and/or Balke until they have a string of bad moves that result in this team being unsuccessful. How many of us cringed when we drafted Aldon Smith with several big-name DL still on the board? Same goes for CK, I never thought that guy could have even the success that he's had thus far. I trust that these guys know what they are doing.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:09 pm
Yeah, Akers is screwing it up a lot this season, I can only hope that it's because of the injury, though I haven't heard about it before this game.

I meant that Harbaugh didn't plan to put CK in, but once he played good that first game, he thought he might have a chance with him. But it was too soon, it was one game when team we played didn't prepare for him. He regressed every game afterwards. Saints game was won by our defense, no matter what the media says...and it's sad that we lost the game in which our defense allowed only 3 points prior to the OT.

And I don't think he is taking responsibility for that play call for no reason, I think it is more to cover up his QB. Now I'm reading how playcalling was atrocious, but it;s the same playcalling we've had all year long. I don't know, I might have wrong perception about Harbaugh, but ever since that "incident" with Schwartz I don't see him at that much nice and humble kind of person. His press conferences look a lot of times like he is confident, but sometimes it looks a bit more of a overconfident person. Of course, that's all just how you see someone over TV, articles and statements...but I don't see him as I saw him when he just signed for the Niners. That's just my view, can't prove it, and no reason to do it, everyone sees same person differently.

I'm just afraid that if you don't question someone, and instead just blindly believe, you might end up with Singletary and his sweet talks all over again, cause this switching of QBs, playcalling, etc. mostly resemble that era and Troy Smith fiasco. I just like to call things as I see them, and what I believe is the best for the team. Nothing more and nothing less. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:04 pm
Another Sunday in the books and I'm still not any closer to one side of the fence or the other. Kaep puts up Alex-like numbers (185 yards, 78% 0 TD 0 INT) and then some not so Alex numbers (50 rush for TD to seal the game), but what the stats don't show is his poor clock management and lack of run-blitz recognition. I feel comfortable in saying that this game isn't as close if Alex was our QB. Additionally, I believe we would have won against the Rams with Alex for the simple fact that they wouldn't have brought the entire roster after him every play, fearing that he would make them pay as a savvy NFL veteran QB would.

Of course none of this matters now as Kaep doesn't look like he is going to play himself out of the job and the belief is that he will only get better. I do applaud Alex as he has taken this well and he is clearly putting the team first which is evident by the fact that he is always the first person to great Kaep when he comes off the field. They are always talking, more so, Alex is always talking and Kaep is always listening. Much like I believe Alex and Trent Dilfer's relationship was mutually beneficial - Alex is helping Kaep along to be a better play and effectively take his job (as he did during the hold out when he paid for Kaep to attend camp Alex), while he has accepted the situation and has chose to make the most of it and probably prolong his career, even if it doesn't continue in SF.

I could be wrong, but I believe teams will study Alex's demeanor and how he handles this situation. Let face the facts, Alex is 28 and will be 29 when next season kicks off - that's an old 29 with a lot of mileage and injuries over the course of his 8 seasons. Easily half of his career is over and few teams will view an above-average, eight-year, game manager (sorry, but most will see it this way) as a long term solution at QB, let alone their QB of the future - particularly with his decently sized price tag. What teams will want, and will be willing to pay for, is a good solid vet that will be their only viable solution at QB while they look to groom a less-polished, raw, young QB. More importantly, they want a guy like Alex that has been in that situation and that will handle it well. Much like Dilfer did when he was a Niner.

I'm talking about a short list of teams that really need to start from scratch at the QB position, with nothing to look forward to with their current depth charts.

The Cards? That would suck...
The Jags? Hene might make Alex look like a lateral move...
The Vikings? No, I think they aren't done kicking the tires on Ponder...
The Cheifs? Maybe, but that team needs help at every position and they are already paying Cassel more than Alex is scheduled to make. Plus, aren't the Chiefs tired of just sniping NFC West QBs (more specifically 9er QBs)? lol, seriously, this team hasn't really drafted a potential-starter at QB for decades, but they have given a go to about a half-dozen 9er throwaways. Tough luck for them that they'll get the no. 1 pick in a QB-less draft. I say they trade down.

I just hope that Kaep and the team make the best out of these last few games, but one thing is for sure, we have the respect of the league...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:53 pm
Yeah, it is how it is. I'm not sold on Kaep, and I'm afraid that once we play a good team (might be the Pats) he will get exposed. You know, teams that have great offense, and against who you have to score points, and score often. When you can't hang to your defense, because, no matter how good they are, Brady will score on them, you can beet your house on that. We had one good offense to play against when Kaep was the starter, and that was NO, and the biggest thing in that game was our defense, that played lights out, hands down their best game of the year...and, on top of that, Brees looked like he was partying hard the night before, Pawno style. :)

Basically, all I'm hoping for is that we manage to win next game, while Kaep gets a bit exposed, so we can either fix that before POs, if possible, or put Alex back in (highly unlikely) for the POs, cause I wouldn't want to throw this season away...I've been waiting for a good season for so long, and then we got that last year, and now was that time to make another push, one more step at least. I don't wanna see that thrown away for nothing...for giving one guy playing time so he could learn. Rodgers didn't have a lot of game time when he was placed as a starter, but he still had a chance to learn, just differently, and I would say the right way. What if we fail this season, and fans got disappointed, Kaep doesn't respond well after failure, or gets into sophomore slump, or worse, gets injured on one of his many runs? Then we are getting back to the rebuilding phase, with few young guys like Aldon used as corner stones...but I don't wanna wait 4-5-6 more years.

Just saying that this is a big risk, and that it wouldn't be too big of a surprise if something like that happens. A lot of people will say, and say that it's an unwritten rule, that you don't change a winning QB because of an injury. I hope that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass in the end.

Oh, and our defense was respected even last year, probably even more. They are not the problem. See how respected our offense is now in the league. When you read comments now and then, and look at the stats...you will see that even though we weren't great on offense before, we were better. Moving the chains, running (not just one gimmick play), more passing yards, more TDs...etc.

By this points, I'm not expecting Alex to start again (if Harbaugh isn't using all of this as a distraction for opposing teams in the POs, and then suddenly puts Alex back just like that, lol), and I think we will have the best insight of our game next week.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:57 pm
I heard some Patriots fans were saying that they would like Smith in New England, after Brady retires, or even trade Brady to SF, for Smith and defense. Of course, they were joking a bit, on the whole defense thing, but they really think Smith would be great in their system. And Brady would get a chance to finish his career in his town, and the team he was cheering for since he was a kid.

Not a bad option, if you ask me (unfortunately, not very realistic). Next season, for instance, and Brady as the 49ers QB, book one Super Bowl for the Niners. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:26 am
Guybrush wrote:I heard some Patriots fans were saying that they would like Smith in New England, after Brady retires, or even trade Brady to SF, for Smith and defense. Of course, they were joking a bit, on the whole defense thing, but they really think Smith would be great in their system. And Brady would get a chance to finish his career in his town, and the team he was cheering for since he was a kid.

Not a bad option, if you ask me (unfortunately, not very realistic). Next season, for instance, and Brady as the 49ers QB, book one Super Bowl for the Niners. :)



I don't know how i feel about that.

I hate Brady being a raiders fan.. but to see him in my bay area rival owning **** in the red and gold.. well It'd be all the more sweeter when my playoffless raiders miss out and i can see Tom choke a chance at a lombardi for the Ninerfaithful.

It's a snowflake in hell chance of happening though bro.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:00 am
Kaep is da man!!!

Alex Smith is never throwing 4 TD'S in a game.

You've guys have gone from a game manager to a game changer under centre.

You must all be over the moon!!!
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