#32 wrote:Yes, there's a huge difference when it comes to Fantasy NBA and actual playing. Shaq is still the league's most dominant player, so I'm taking him #1 for a franchise this year (though age will get him in 2 or 3 seasons), LeBron is clearly the best player in the league now (no question), Kobe's been scoring his ass off with Phil back (plus he's motivated), AI has upped his assists to a career high (while maintaining the league's scoring title), and KG is gonna bounce back (don't worry, he'll make the playoffs this year... or he'll commit suicide. Winning's THAT important to him). Hell, I'd even put Dirk ahead of Duncan at the #6 spot. The guy single handedly carried Dallas. If Amare was still healthy, Duncan'd get the 8th seed... but, with Stoudamire's knee injury, Tim slides in as the league's 7th best player at the moment. Every player I mentioned ahead of him will effect the outcome of the game more than he will (and, more importantly, their chances of winning).

Ok, let's play.

Duncan has won three rings, the Spurs weren't unable to win anything til he went there. And they had great teams, with D-Rob, George Gervin & others.

Shaq is not the same player he was. He's already lost a step. Still dominating, tho.

LeBron still has to make the playoffs and do anything other than posting great stats. Right now, he's Grant Hill Part Deux.

Kobe didn't make the playoffs since Shaq left.

KG, hasn't won anything, and he couldn't even make the playoffs last season.

Stoudemire only plays as well as his athletic ability allows him to. What I mean, it's a question mark which Amare will come back from this injury.

AI, I won't say anything about AI. I'm biased, as he's my fave (of nowadays players).

And Dirk D is worse than Dunleavy's. 'Nuff said.

TMC wrote:Ok, let's play.

Duncan has won three rings, the Spurs weren't unable to win anything til he went there. And they had great teams, with D-Rob, George Gervin & others.

My point exactly. David Robinson and George Gervin are, no doubt, better players in their prime than Tim Duncan is. Tim's just having the good luck of playing in a time when the league's virtually wide open for anybody who can play team basketball to take the rings. Gervin and Robinson played in times where the league was at a higher place and had worthy champions winning their rightful glory. Teams like the nowadays Spurs or Pistons wouldn't stand a chance against teams of yesteryear like the Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls, Bad Boys Pistons, or Jerry West's Lakers. The league's wide open and Tim's on the best rounded team. Lucky him.

TMC wrote:Shaq is not the same player he was. He's already lost a step. Still dominating, tho.

More dominant than anybody in the game, without question. Even if he's lost a step (which is debatable), he's still more dominating than Tim Duncan is. Shaq changes an entire game just by being on the floor. Unless you foul him or throw three guys on him, Shaq is an instant two points. Duncan doesn't command that sort of attention.

TMC wrote:LeBron still has to make the playoffs and do anything other than posting great stats. Right now, he's Grant Hill Part Deux.

LeBron is doing for Cleveland what Vince Carter did for the Raptors; because he doesn't have the supporting cast, he won't make it as far as Tim (who has better players around him). 27 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 7 apg are better all-around numbers than Jordan put up. LeBron's career is just entering his 3rd season. Wanna make a bet that with Big Z, Larry, and Donyell he's not gonna make the playoffs this year? I'm betting Cleveland hits the post-season easy this year (btw, on a side note, Grant Hill on his best day is LEAGUES above Tim Duncan on his best day. A career-screwing injury taking him down doesn't change the fact that Hill was a better player in his time).

TMC wrote:Kobe didn't make the playoffs since Shaq left.

Because the team was new and had no credible coaching (or at least consistent coaching). Kobe was still able to single handedly tie the rejuvinated Golden State Warriors last season record BY HIMSELF (because, lets be honest, when Kobe's playing, Lamar gets lazy). Bryant is a better all-around player than Tim and is more valuable to a team.

TMC wrote:KG, hasn't won anything, and he couldn't even make the playoffs last season.

Again, bagging the TEAM instead of the player. Kevin Garnett won a league MVP and he didn't even need to bring his team to the NBA Finals. That's how good he is. Tim Duncan never got superstar, league franchise personal recognition until he won a ring. Garnett already has it. Put KG in Duncan's place and the Spurs winning the title wouldn't even be a question.

TMC wrote:Stoudemire only plays as well as his athletic ability allows him to. What I mean, it's a question mark which Amare will come back from this injury.

You're right... but last year, he was a better player than Duncan. He meant more to the Suns than Tim does to the Spurs. Amare's dominant physical game is something the league hasn't seen since a little guy by the name of Shaquille O'Neal came into the league. True, Amare's legs are his biggest weapon, but he was a better player than Duncan last year (and WOULD BE this year, too, if his injury didn't occur).

TMC wrote:AI, I won't say anything about AI. I'm biased, as he's my fave (of nowadays players).

I dunno about him being one of my favorites, but you can't deny the skills. Especially after a season where he single-handedly dragged the Sixers to the Finals. Duncan couldn't do that on his best day with the team AI had.

TMC wrote:And Dirk D is worse than Dunleavy's. 'Nuff said.

Dirk is the only toss-up on the list. One day, he's better than Duncan, the next day he's worse. One thing's for sure; without him, the Mav's are screwed. He gets 26 pts and 10 boards a game, while shooting from the outside is still a major strength of his. Dirk's defensive game isn't helpless, either; as a 7-footer, he blocks his fair share of shots. Not as many as TD because Dirk doesn't usually play inside defense against post players, but he got a good amount last season.

Overall, every player listed (with the exception of Dirk... who's tied with him) would do a better job in Tim Duncan's place with the San Antonio Spurs. Sure, the guy's a great player... but lets not go overboard and act like he's one of the transcending time centers to ever play the game. Shaq, KG, AI... those are players that have broken the time barrier because they're Top 10 all-time in their positions. Tim Duncan is not a Top 10 all-time center. End of story.

I think the only problem with Duncan is that he's not flashy. He does the little things no one notices, and at the end of the game he has 24 & 12. For me he's, without a doubt, a top 10 player all time at his position.

Let's take a look at who's been better than him:

Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Kareem
Moses Malone
Olajuwon

Am I forgetting someone? (And no, I don't consider D-Rob or Ewing better than him)

And I don't think the league has gotten worse. Just different. More physical and defensive. Most of those guys would have problems keeping their numbers in today's game.

TMC wrote:Am I forgetting someone? (And no, I don't consider D-Rob or Ewing better than him)

Yes! Dave Cowens was much better than he was! A harder worker who got amazing results through sweat! Also, though he's not as praised as other centers, Nate Thurmond goes on there, too (Warrior Pride)! Wes Unseld is a better all-time center than Duncan... and I'd put Ewing and Robinson way over Duncan! The fact that they played in the MJ Era means they didn't get many rings (hell, Pat got none), but I'd still rank them higher than Timmy! ABA's gotta represent their best center, too (Artis Gilmore)! How about "The Captain" Willis Reed?!? Don't forget Bill Walton, too (annoying ass commentator, but a damn good player)! You'll also have people making cases for Bill Lambeir, George Mikan, and even Robert Parrish. Give old school their dues, brother!

Many, many, many centers better than Tim Duncan on an all-time scale!

Ok, I had forgotten about Robert Parish, but the others are not better than Duncan. We'll have to end this in a draw (again), as this depends on our subjective views...

I'm not even going to write a page and a half on this! Duncan is by far the most valuable player in the nba ans has been for some time! His team is the most successful in recent years and he does great and all that he has to do every game. The reaosn why people say stupid things like Amare or Kobe are better is because of the athleticism and highlights! That is all! Duncan could score 30pts a game because he is unstoppable and has a mountain of moves he can use. He doesn't score that much that often because he doesn't have to, he has a team that plays so well together and that does the job every game.

In the minds of his fellow nba players, Duncan would be right on the top of the list, along with Shaq, as most unstoppable and dominating players! Some people can say what they want about this guy and the next guy and how great such and such a player are but the fact is that Duncan has always been one of the greatest players since the first year he played and he has 2 MVPs and 3 championships! The Spurs only become a truly top team when he arrived!

migya wrote:I'm not even going to write a page and a half on this! Duncan is by far the most valuable player in the nba ans has been for some time! His team is the most successful in recent years and he does great and all that he has to do every game. The reaosn why people say stupid things like Amare or Kobe are better is because of the athleticism and highlights! That is all! Duncan could score 30pts a game because he is unstoppable and has a mountain of moves he can use. He doesn't score that much that often because he doesn't have to, he has a team that plays so well together and that does the job every game.

In the minds of his fellow nba players, Duncan would be right on the top of the list, along with Shaq, as most unstoppable and dominating players! Some people can say what they want about this guy and the next guy and how great such and such a player are but the fact is that Duncan has always been one of the greatest players since the first year he played and he has 2 MVPs and 3 championships! The Spurs only become a truly top team when he arrived!

My point exactly.

migya wrote:I'm not even going to write a page and a half on this! Duncan is by far the most valuable player in the nba ans has been for some time! His team is the most successful in recent years and he does great and all that he has to do every game. The reaosn why people say stupid things like Amare or Kobe are better is because of the athleticism and highlights! That is all! Duncan could score 30pts a game because he is unstoppable and has a mountain of moves he can use. He doesn't score that much that often because he doesn't have to, he has a team that plays so well together and that does the job every game.

In the minds of his fellow nba players, Duncan would be right on the top of the list, along with Shaq, as most unstoppable and dominating players! Some people can say what they want about this guy and the next guy and how great such and such a player are but the fact is that Duncan has always been one of the greatest players since the first year he played and he has 2 MVPs and 3 championships! The Spurs only become a truly top team when he arrived!

Right, he's the best player on an already decent team (The Spurs). Doesn't mean he's the best player in the league; it means he's in the best spot to win a championship. Like I said, every player listed would do a better job in Duncan's place, with Duncan's team, and Duncan's coach (except, maybe, for Dirk Nowitski). But trying to act like Tim Duncan is suddenly one of the Top 10 centers of all time is ludacrous. You have to respect the past and honor those players, even if they're too old to get on the court and show Tim how it's done now a days! Praise him and his recent success if you must, but the truth is that Tim Duncan's capitolizing on the post Jordan Era where the inmates are running the asylum. No team is a shoe in on the NBA Finals, Spurs included, but San Antonio has the most complete team out there, next to the Pistons. Tim Duncan isn't the league's best player, he's just the best player on the best team. If the Grizzlies won a championship, I guarentee you EVERYONE would jump all over Pau Gasol and act like he's one of the Top 5 players in the NBA now. Seriously, all of a sudden players like Chauncey Billips are Top 10 point guards because they have rings? Use your feelings; that isn't right. It's a wrongful accusation. Highlights aren't suppose to be taken into consideration when assessing a player's greatness... but rings aren't the only thing you can go by. If that was the case, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing wouldn't be in the NBA's Top 50 (and they're well deserved in being there). Tim Duncan's on the NBA's current best team. Has a lot to do with his team and their ability to step it up in any postion... has something to do with Duncan being in the league's Top 10 players at the moment... but lets not go overboard and start giving the man wrongful titles like Top 3 in the NBA or Top 10 all-time centers... Duncan's not THAT good and no one can deny that.

TMC, I think our opinions on the NBA's greatest centers differ greatly. Out of the entire list of players I came up with that I believe are better than Duncan, I would have listed Robert Parish at around last (or near last) compared to everyone else. Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton... there are too many great big men in the NBA's History. But, like I said, our opinions must be very different. I agree that a draw is the best way to end this.

#32 wrote:TMC, I think our opinions on the NBA's greatest centers differ greatly. Out of the entire list of players I came up with that I believe are better than Duncan, I would have listed Robert Parish at around last (or near last) compared to everyone else. Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton... there are too many great big men in the NBA's History. But, like I said, our opinions must be very different. I agree that a draw is the best way to end this.

I've only seen higlights of Willis Reed, I can't talk about him, as I can't talk about Mikan and others. I've been fortunate enough to see full games of Wilt and Russel, that's why I'm including them. And Unseld wasn't that good on offense. He never surpassed the 20 ppg mark in his career. Ditto for Walton (this one's been the best passer behind only Sabonis I've ever seen at that position).

Great centers, but not the complete package.

So, yeah, better end in a draw...

Firstly Duncan is a PF! He has already been listed as best PF ever by many analysts and he is the greatest winner of all the PFs ever!

To say that duncan is not that good is just plain stupid. The man has an array of moves in the post unmatched in the nba. I remember watching the Spurs win their first championship, Duncan had more moves in the post than I can remember! I remeber thinking that if David Robinson had ever used moves like Duncan did, he would have been the best player ever by a mile. Duncan does it all, score inside and out, passes well out of many double teams, rebounds really well and is one of the best shot blockers ever! This season he is even better in blocks so far!

Duncan just happens to be a pacifist. He doesn't feel like he has to go out there and score on every possession like guys like Kobe do! Duncan has got very good players around him but some of them, like Bowen, would be nothing on another team becasue Duncan makes them so much more effective!

2 well deserved MVPs! Many all nba team selections and allstar every year of his career! Duncan is an nba great and is better than every player in the nba right now! Shaq just doesn't seem the same anymore and he is really winding down. Kobe, Iverson, James (so far) are individual players that do not make their teams much better and they all love to shoot alot and that takes away from their teams at times, especially for Kobe. Dirk and Garnett are great but they are incapable of winning like Duncan and making the big play like Duncan has been doing since his rookie season.


Duncan is a great player and one of the greatest winners in nba history

migya wrote:Firstly Duncan is a PF! He has already been listed as best PF ever by many analysts and he is the greatest winner of all the PFs ever!

But that's just because when he was drafted, D-Rob was the starting center, so he had to settle for the PF position, sort of like what's happening now in Milwaukee with Bogut.

Then, when Robinson retired, he decided to stay there, and why not, if it usually gives him an advantage with most PFs.

But he plays like a center, and that's why we're considering him with the other centers.

Agreed with the other, tho (just one thing, if Robinson had had the same moves Duncan has, he'd be Olajuwon).

No he wouldn't - Olajuwon was never as athletic and fast as Robinson! Robinson played soft at times and still scored and rebounded like a monster. That man could have averaged over 30pts a game every year of his career if he wanted to. He always took the less dominant route, like laying it u or jump shooting it, instead of going hard and dunking. The man was a physical specimen with strength, agility, speed and leaping ability, he had it all. Duncan is fundamentally great which is something Robinson wasn't. If Robinson had used his size to over power smaller opponents (which sometimes got the better of him), he would have been far better

migya wrote:No he wouldn't - Olajuwon was never as athletic and fast as Robinson

Maybe not, but he didn't need it to be the most dominant player of his time (behind Jordan, obviously). What I meant is that if Robinson had had better moves, he would have been as dominant as Olajuwon was. He wouldn't have had to wait til the team drafted Duncan to win his first ring.

My fault for not expressing it well enough.

Robinson may not have won championships when it was just him, but I don't put Olajuwon ahead of him. I know everyone will disagree but, (and I admit Robinson was one of my favourite players ever), he held his own against Olajuwon and outplayed many times. The two are hard to separate since both ruled their position for so long. Both could, score, rebound and block shots but both were very good at steals, something guys like Ewing and Shaq have never done.

I thought the Spurs were going to win it all in the 194/95 season, when Robinson got MVP and they went all the way to the West finals for the first time. They ended getting beaten by Olajuwon and the Rockets so that was that.

Robinson was such a rarity and I don't think they're will ever be a player like him again

Well, Olajuwon is my favourite center ever, so we're going to disagree here. Not denying that Robinson was a great center, but he wasn't able to get the job done by himself...