saintdee wrote:Jackattack wrote:saintdee wrote:Jackattack wrote:migya wrote:Jackattack wrote:While there is a lot to address about poverty, education and overall opportunities in regards to someone like Lovelle, the responsibility ultimately rests on the individual who decides to play that card. So he got a effed up deal in life, that doesn't mean you can kill four people.
True but you know what, that's how nature is and humans are part of nature. You get treated wrongly by a group of people, like police, more than once and/or in an extreme sense where you are violated and abused and you have dislike towards that person or persons who did you wrong and also the group who they are a part of. Police have relatively the same powers and in a particular demographic area, they may abuse those powers. People who are violated in those areas (and those that care about them, like family and friends) have a strong dislike obviously and some get fed up and take action, sometimes extreme action, like killing.
When you are desperate and have had enough of being abused and violated, you either get so scared that you run away to anywhere that you think might be safe (if you have that option that is) or kill yourself or you get very angry and take action. I don't like that people get killed but above all else, justice must reign and by that I mean, things set in balance, like if you abuse someone, you get a consequence. Police have guns and other weapons, they also have the "perception" that all of them are good, in the eyes of most in society, so the police have the weapons and society on their side, basically they have all the power and that can corrupt. Those that get abused get mentally tortured and start having thoughts that they wouldn't have if they were not abused and such things like killing police happen.
I'm not for killing, but things are almost NEVER black and white. If the person or people responsible (I don't know the story other than four police were killed) has had a history of being abused and violated by police (finding that out in itself can be very difficult), they are not that bad in that they had reason to be angry and the actions were incited. If the person or people was just bored and decided to kill police, totally different and they should get big consequence.
Things are not so black and white. Police can have a tough job, very tough, in some areas, but the laws of nature work for them as well, for all of us. If you abuse, things come back around and get you, sooner or later. That's a law of nature for a reason, as it keeps things in justice, be it sometimes seemingly extreme. Things will only be perfect and things like this incident not happen when people are perfect and never do anything wrong. I think that day is still a long way off.
The only way right now for humans is to have great, open and honest communication and next to no hate and bad judgement, as things always come out bad with those thoughts and feelings
great compassion and empathy Mig!
I pretty much feel the same way. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. There is a history and a story that led to these events. I can understand how someone can get that hopeless. and prison is a horrific place. There is a lot to discuss about our society that contributed to him being there at that place in time and in that frame of mind. The frame of mind that said it was time to kill. I'll be the first one to say our effed up society and his bad deal led him to this point. As I said there is a lot to address around that, but that doesn't give someone an excuse to kill.
as Chris Rock said about OJ, "I'm not saying he should've done it, but I understand"
I don't understand why there wasn't so much empathy for the BART cop? Was what the BART officer did so much worse then what this guy did? And don't bother talking about innocence. The cops and SWAT officers killed by this guy were as far as I am concerned doing their jobs.
You guys are pretty quick to make what sounds like excuses for this guy.
could not the BART cop also had history with black males? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? maybe he saw his friends get shot and was extra jumpy. I mean why would you just kill someone in cold blood in front of dozens of witnesses and other cops. There must have been a reason.
read the bold (above and way above) before saying I'm making excuses for the this guy...
you might have said you're not making excuses for him explicitly but look at what you wrote and tell me what you're saying isn't a excuse.
In my mind this is a very black and white issue. You either think he's guilty as a cold blooded murderer who deserves no sympathy.
He's innocent because it was the police's fault.
No one forced him to pull the trigger. No one forced him to kill people except himself. Blaming society for personal problems is the weakest excuse ever. The economy is bad so you gotta rob people? Tough luck everyone is in the same economy but not all of us have to go out and rob people. Live in danger of police abuse everyday? so what we all live with police everyday. We all have to take responsibility as adults for the choices we make in life and not try to shift the blame or else we'll end up with more tragedy like this..its too easy to blame "the man" for everything and justify whatever action you take.
No, you need to take a look at what I wrote again. I was not making excuses for him, just stating some very real things that are in play around this issue. As Migya said, it's all about the discussion. For you it is black and white. For me murder is black or white, but the circumstances that led to this incident are very grey.