voting/politics thread

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who are you voting for?

Barack Obama / Joe Biden
22
67%
John McCain / Sara Palin
3
9%
other (Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, etc)
1
3%
I'll decide later
3
9%
No one. Voting is for jerks
4
12%
 
Total votes : 33

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:19 pm
yes, thanks Joel for sharing.

I just dont understand the "wrong" thing? Is it "wrong" to be black? Is it "wrong" to be a woman? Is it "wrong" to have down's syndrome?

I would anticipate that your answer is "of course not". But to me, there is NO difference.

Quite frankly you are incorrect when you say this is a lifestlye CHOICE. It most certainly is NOT. People are born with a predisposition to who they are attracted to. The only CHOICE they have it to:
1) Choose to be themselves and unfortunately deal with the discrimination that comes from it
2) Choose to live a life of lies and deception and conform the the standard definition of a family
3) Choose a life of solitude without having an emotional and physical partner in life

Your kids will not "turn" gay. They will only have a choice as to how they will act on their feelings that are in the core of their being.

This is science. Stories that were written THOUSANDS of year ago... a time when there no science, should not dispel the things we have learned through technology and science. Saying "well that is what the bible says" is not good enough when we have proof that invalidates beliefs from ancient times.

Imagine if we held true to ALL the beliefs of thousands of years ago.

This is PURE discrimination. It is denying rights to a segment of the population for no valid reason.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:26 pm
1 - When you say, "marriage has always been between a man and woman" and so "where are my rights being respected to keep it that way"

The difference is,
no one is taking away your right
to think or do anything!!! (whereas you are taking away the rights of gay people)..........
what does it matter to you
if gay people can marry? what does that do to your perception of marriage?

2 - When you say that gays peoples lifestyles are "wrong"............

A: Why?
just because you find it disgusting
or something you would never contemplate, doesnt make it "wrong"........its just makes it different to what you want out of life.

B: Perhaps you feel that
gay people are too promiscuous
? all the freedom and lack of responsibility/faith to another gay person is what you find wrong...........would letting them marry possibly eradicate some of this?

3 - This "agenda" you keep talking about..........that saddens me dude, it really does. What seriously do you think would happen if Prop 8 was voted no???..........GAYS WOULD TAKE OVER!!! RUN AWAY!!!...........give me a break man, come on, your smarter than that bro.

What possible agenda would come into place? spiked water to turn everyone gay!............what is this agenda you


worry about?[/quote]







they are trying to take away my right to keep marriage as it is


it matters to me in that it promotes something that is wrong and lends itself to kind of encouraging others to make that wrong choice.
and it helps to hide a wrong choice behind a law

i know you are not gonna like this one :mrgreen: its wrong because
God say's its wrong.....i believe it but its Gods word not mine , guess you'll need to take that up with God. ( no disrespect bigs) I imagin if you did take it up with God it would be an incredable conversation :pain10:


its not disgusting to me ...its nothing , i mean iwouldn't watch two dudes piggy backing ...but then again i really don't care much for girl/boy porn.


i figure gays to be people and some will of them will be commited for life and others wont be.

i guess the agenda that bothers me most are things like.... the tranny mayor of an oregon small town.

the chick on larry king the other night who tranny's into a dude and while she is a dude she still goes and has a baby....

to me they get pretty freaky and (yes in a controlling way) i want to do my little part to limit that freaky stuff from getting way carried away.

you are a stinking riot....i love it spiked water :D freaking funny bigs.
just wondering which isle in the supermarket would that water be found in, what/how would it be labled , would you have to be over 18 to purchase it , would it be available in flavors......IF ONE WAS TO DRINK OF THIS WATER YOU SPEAK OF WOULD ONE THIRST AGAIN (john chapter4 :mrgreen: )...

hey bigs i see some of the error's in my position .
and i wish the entire gay thing never even came into existance.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:32 pm
bada wrote:yes, thanks Joel for sharing.

I just dont understand the "wrong" thing? Is it "wrong" to be black? Is it "wrong" to be a woman? Is it "wrong" to have down's syndrome?

I would anticipate that your answer is "of course not". But to me, there is NO difference.

Quite frankly you are incorrect when you say this is a lifestlye CHOICE. It most certainly is NOT. People are born with a predisposition to who they are attracted to. The only CHOICE they have it to:
1) Choose to be themselves and unfortunately deal with the discrimination that comes from it
2) Choose to live a life of lies and deception and conform the the standard definition of a family
3) Choose a life of solitude without having an emotional and physical partner in life

Your kids will not "turn" gay. They will only have a choice as to how they will act on their feelings that are in the core of their being.

This is science. Stories that were written THOUSANDS of year ago... a time when there no science, should not dispel the things we have learned through technology and science. Saying "well that is what the bible says" is not good enough when we have proof that invalidates beliefs from ancient times.

Imagine if we held true to ALL the beliefs of thousands of years ago.

This is PURE discrimination. It is denying rights to a segment of the population for no valid reason.


Well said Bada. With the dis-respect and discrimination that gays are treated with in this country, I really dont believe it is a choice to be gay. Anybody that questions it, just think about it....could you make that "choice" to be gay? If not, how could we expect a gay person to choose to be strait? I dont want to cross any crazy lines or anything, but I honestly believe too many people take too much literal stock in the bible. It is one thing to read and believe, but the bible is a book written by man. Times change / things change, people must change, we must evolve and learn tolerance.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:35 pm
JOEL wrote:I imagin if you did take it up with God it would be an incredable conversation :pain10:


Actually, I think it would be a quite short one:


B: Well, you know, I don't like it.

G: And who the f*ck cares?. I'm calling the shots here. Go play CoD and stop caring about my job.



:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:46 pm
"Always" Next wrote:
bada wrote:yes, thanks Joel for sharing.

I just dont understand the "wrong" thing? Is it "wrong" to be black? Is it "wrong" to be a woman? Is it "wrong" to have down's syndrome?

I would anticipate that your answer is "of course not". But to me, there is NO difference.

Quite frankly you are incorrect when you say this is a lifestlye CHOICE. It most certainly is NOT. People are born with a predisposition to who they are attracted to. The only CHOICE they have it to:
1) Choose to be themselves and unfortunately deal with the discrimination that comes from it
2) Choose to live a life of lies and deception and conform the the standard definition of a family
3) Choose a life of solitude without having an emotional and physical partner in life

Your kids will not "turn" gay. They will only have a choice as to how they will act on their feelings that are in the core of their being.

This is science. Stories that were written THOUSANDS of year ago... a time when there no science, should not dispel the things we have learned through technology and science. Saying "well that is what the bible says" is not good enough when we have proof that invalidates beliefs from ancient times.

Imagine if we held true to ALL the beliefs of thousands of years ago.

This is PURE discrimination. It is denying rights to a segment of the population for no valid reason.


Well said Bada. With the dis-respect and discrimination that gays are treated with in this country, I really dont believe it is a choice to be gay. Anybody that questions it, just think about it....could you make that "choice" to be gay? If not, how could we expect a gay person to choose to be strait? I dont want to cross any crazy lines or anything, but I honestly believe too many people take too much literal stock in the bible. It is one thing to read and believe, but the bible is a book written by man. Times change / things change, people must change, we must evolve and learn tolerance.



yeah ..i hear you guys...
i think it is a choice , im not really into learning about the whole gay thing but iwould guess that an intelligent arguement could be made for both sides.

as far as a book written by men well that is one way of looking at it.
not my way but A way. its all good i'm not really the type to push my ways on anybody.. peace.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:54 pm
and I appreciate that Joel and I dont really wish to my ways on people as well.

But science is science and that is the part I struggle with. I mean if the bible said the world is flat but we CLEARLY know that is not the case, you YOU still say that it IS flat? I would hope you would say "no, I know the world is not flat despite what the bible says".

The stories in the bible convey a moral or a concept but should not be taken LITERALLY. I mean do you really think that evolution does NOT exist despite seeing every other species recorded evolving based on enviromental conditions?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:57 pm
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:1 - When you say, "marriage has always been between a man and woman" and so "where are my rights being respected to keep it that way"

The difference is, no one is taking away your right to think or do anything!!! (whereas you are taking away the rights of gay people)..........what does it matter to you if gay people can marry? what does that do to your perception of marriage?


You're doing it just by questioning why he thinks what he thinks, Bigs. Or would you do the same with anybody that voted against Prop 8?. Everybody has a right to have their own opinion, and that's the right that's at stake here.


Key word here = OPINION!!!.............its not right to use that "opinion" to discrimate against others.

TMC wrote:
JOEL wrote:I imagin if you did take it up with God it would be an incredable conversation :pain10:


Actually, I think it would be a quite short one:


B: Well, you know, I don't like it.

G: And who the f*ck cares?. I'm calling the shots here. Go play CoD and stop caring about my job.



:mrgreen:


My reply to god would be =

"God, your a walking contradiction!!! "do onto others as you would have them to onto you"............."all men are created equal"..............God..............YOUR A F*CKING JOKE!!! and you have ruined your so-called children by spreading and encouraging hate and murder, more people have died in your name than anyone in history COMBINED!...............go f*ck yourself "god"

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:04 pm
bada wrote:and I appreciate that Joel and I dont really wish to my ways on people as well.

But science is science and that is the part I struggle with. I mean if the bible said the world is flat but we CLEARLY know that is not the case, you YOU still say that it IS flat? I would hope you would say "no, I know the world is not flat despite what the bible says".

The stories in the bible convey a moral or a concept but should not be taken LITERALLY. I mean do you really think that evolution does NOT exist despite seeing every other species recorded evolving based on enviromental conditions?


yeah its a funny thing...christians ( i fall into this) will take a biblical position on some things yet disregaurd other things, classic right.

some things are to be taken literaly imo and others not...to me the best understanding of scripture is to take the bible as a whole when one takes a precept without weighing it against the entire bible, one is easily going down a dangerous road.


i do know this if i didnt drink so much beer my stomach would be flat
their is a little science for ya :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:06 pm
JOEL wrote:i do know this if i didnt drink so much beer my stomach would be flat
their is a little science for ya :wink:


:D :D :D
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:11 pm
bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:
bigstrads wrote:1 - When you say, "marriage has always been between a man and woman" and so "where are my rights being respected to keep it that way"

The difference is, no one is taking away your right to think or do anything!!! (whereas you are taking away the rights of gay people)..........what does it matter to you if gay people can marry? what does that do to your perception of marriage?


You're doing it just by questioning why he thinks what he thinks, Bigs. Or would you do the same with anybody that voted against Prop 8?. Everybody has a right to have their own opinion, and that's the right that's at stake here.


Key word here = OPINION!!!.............its not right to use that "opinion" to discrimate against others.


While, at the same time, you're discriminating him because you don't agree with his opinion. He's wrong, you're right. That's a discriminating notion.

I'm not getting into who's right and who's not, but since the very moment prop 8 became subject to public voting, it became a matter of JUST opinion, and what you and Bada are trying to do here is impose your opinion on JOEL's (even tho I basically agree with that opinion).

As you see, it's not as easy as it seems.

bigstrads wrote:
TMC wrote:
JOEL wrote:I imagin if you did take it up with God it would be an incredable conversation :pain10:


Actually, I think it would be a quite short one:


B: Well, you know, I don't like it.

G: And who the f*ck cares?. I'm calling the shots here. Go play CoD and stop caring about my job.



:mrgreen:


My reply to god would be =

"God, your a walking contradiction!!! "do onto others as you would have them to onto you"............."all men are created equal"..............God..............YOUR A F*CKING JOKE!!! and you have ruined your so-called children by spreading and encouraging hate and murder, more people have died in your name than anyone in history COMBINED!...............go f*ck yourself "god"


Well, paraphasing Pawno, I guess it would be more like:

"God, your..." BOOOM!!!

:mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:17 pm
Regardless of it's original transcription. The bible has been written and rewritten thousands of times by man. So even IF God had whispered it into one man's ear many years ago, thousands of other men have stepped all over it and deluded any original message. Conquering civilizations took what they could use and discarded what they couldn't.

The fact that many cultures tell the Genesis story exactly the same way and that the Jesus story is also in hundreds of cultures either goes to strengthen your faith if you believe or to weaken your faith if you don't. I happen to believe it weakens the religious argument... but regardless of my opinion, my understanding of Jesus message was love and tolerance, and to leave the judging to God. I think Jesus would choose to be among gay people at this time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3pIsA0Q ... re=related

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:25 pm
TMC wrote:I'm not getting into who's right and who's not, but since the very moment prop 8 became subject to public voting, it became a matter of JUST opinion, and what you and Bada are trying to do here is impose your opinion on JOEL's (even tho I basically agree with that opinion).


hmm, I dont buy that. Well at least in my mind. I guess it is just an opinion of the KKK to hate black people but it is discrimination and it IS wrong.

Discrimination in ANY form is wrong and I guess I just dont think it should be an OPINION.

Definition of discrimination:
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

How does rewritting the constitution to prohibit the right of a group of people to marry when other groups can get married, NOT fall into the definition of discrimination?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:32 am
bada wrote:
TMC wrote:I'm not getting into who's right and who's not, but since the very moment prop 8 became subject to public voting, it became a matter of JUST opinion, and what you and Bada are trying to do here is impose your opinion on JOEL's (even tho I basically agree with that opinion).


hmm, I dont buy that. Well at least in my mind. I guess it is just an opinion of the KKK to hate black people but it is discrimination and it IS wrong.

Discrimination in ANY form is wrong and I guess I just dont think it should be an OPINION.

Definition of discrimination:
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

How does rewritting the constitution to prohibit the right of a group of people to marry when other groups can get married, NOT fall into the definition of discrimination?


Ugh... I've discussed this with Bigs one page ago, Bada. It's not discriminatory if it affects everybody, from a legal point of view. It is from an ethical point of view, no doubt about it.

And if I had to vote, I'd do it against Prop 8, don't get me wrong. Problem here is that it shouldn't have reached a public voting stage. Once it reaches that stage, it becomes just a matter of opinion, and imposing any opinion on anybody else is also a breach of their own rights (of course it happens on every public voting. That's what political campaigns are, in any case... It's exactly the same situation)

The way I see it, this is something that should have been developed by the government, as part of their political program, not an issue that should have reached a referendum stage.


As far as the comparison to a KKK opinion, it's not a valid one. Why?. Because it's a fact that today's society (thank god) cannot accept that opinion. It's considered not only wrong, but a criminal offense. Prop 8 is not. If that were the case, there would be no voting. The fact that there is a public referendum means that both opinions have to have the same weight, and that has nothing to do with which one either of us support.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:16 am
well that is the EXACT discussion that the California Supreme court has agreed to hear.... whether it is even valid that the people did get to vote for it.

It is only a matter of time before discriminating against race or sexual orientation will be viewed the same. The comparison IS valid because it IS discrimination. It is just that society has not evolved in this area as much. Just like people probably had the same arguments when blacks were not allowed to vote, or interracial marriage was against the law. We have thankfully evolved from that stance just like we will here.

It saddens me that people dont see the difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:33 am
bada wrote:It saddens me that people dont see the difference.


Most 18 to 29 year olds see the difference

Its only a matter of time really....
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