Re-Examining The Shaq Trade

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:39 pm
For years, I have done nothing but label Mitch Kupchek as the worst GM in basketball (yes, worse than McHale) because of what he got in return for the league's most dominant player. After the recent Laker trade, I think I owe the man an apology. Below are the Lakers' shuffle of assets, from Shaquille O'Neal to the present day...

Shaquille O'Neal ----> Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant

Caron Butler (and Chucky Atkins) -----> Kwame Brown

Kwame Brown (and Jarvis Crittinton) ------> Pau Gasol


Lakers Lost:

Shaquille O'Neal
Chucky Atkins
Jarvis Crittinton

Lakers Gained:

Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant (released)

Butler and Brown are lost in the translation, because both men have, virtually, become Pau Gasol, in the Laker's eyes. Nobody would argue that Gasol is far more valuable to any team than O'Neal today. In fact, one would be hard pressed to find a logical argument for that statement LAST season, either. Hell, I don't think anybody would claim O'Neal is better than Lamar Odom right now. And the Lakers got both guys, in exchange for a championship. That's pretty damn sweet, if you ask me.

Finally, the Shaq trade has been justified. What's more: it actually seems like a very legit deal for LA.

Kudos, Mitch.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:30 pm
32 wrote:Shaquille O'Neal ----> Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant

Caron Butler (and Chucky Atkins) -----> Kwame Brown

Kwame Brown (and Jarvis Crittinton) ------> Pau Gasol



That's not really a fair view. The O'Neal trade was just for Odom, Butler and Grant and I'd still count Butler for Brown in the whole picture.

But this last trade is too far away in time. If a trade happens more than two seasons since the first one, it cannot be counted as part of that one, but as another, independent move.


Also, I blame Chris Wallace's idiocy for this one, not Kupchack. There's a reason that nutjob was run out of Boston...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:59 pm
I agree with TMC, you can't combine the trades.

Still, looking at the individual trade, Butler has become one of the 5 best SFs in the league and Odom is a stud too. It was actually a trade that worked out well for both teams; the lakers got more talent, the Heat won a ring.

Though you have to wonder if the Heat could have won a ring at some point down the road keeping together Wade, Odom, Haslem, and Butler.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:12 pm
I don't know what you guys mean by "combining trades". Nowhere in there does it say that the Gasol trade was a combined effort of the Shaq trade; its simply an evaluation of shuffled resources. Mitch Kupchak turned Shaquille O'Neal into 3 players... one which, being Caron Butler. Butler was traded for Brown. Brown was traded for Gasol. The Pau Gasol trade that the Lakers just made could not have happened without the assets Los Angeles aquired in the Shaq trade. Therefore, it can be said that Shaquille O'Neal's trade made way for Paul Gasol's trade.

It's like the Antawn Jamison trade: assets aquired from Dallas in that trade (Nick Van Exel) were dealt for Dale Davis. Davis, in turn, was traded to New Orleans for Baron Davis. Therefore, it can be said that the Antawn Jamison trade, overtime, evolved into a Baron Davis trade.

I'm just giving Mitch his dues. The guy has made some good draft choices in Farmar, Turiaf, and (now traded) Crittinton. He picked up Derek Fisher for dirt cheap, held onto Andrew Bynum when EVERYONE (including 99% of this board) called him a moron for it, and has now salvaged the Shaquille O'Neal trade by shuffling his assets again. Caron Butler for Kwame Brown was a terrible trade, but nobody can argue that Pau Gasol in exchange for Brown far outweighs any negative impact the Lakers sustained from losing Butler.

All I gotta say is good deal, Mitch. Everyone thought you got railed on the Shaquille O'Neal trade, but you managed to turn it into two all-star caliber players in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. Once again, kudos.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:16 pm
32 wrote:The Pau Gasol trade that the Lakers just made could not have happened without the assets Los Angeles aquired in the Shaq trade. Therefore, it can be said that Shaquille O'Neal's trade made way for Paul Gasol's trade.


That's the problem. This trade didn't happen thanks to what the Lakers got for Gasol. It only happened because Kwame was a expirer. Any other big expirer would have worked exactly the same.

And, in case the Lakers didn't have a big expirer, this trade would have never ever happened.

It's an independent move, totally unrelated to the previous ones.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:58 pm
TMC wrote:
32 wrote:The Pau Gasol trade that the Lakers just made could not have happened without the assets Los Angeles aquired in the Shaq trade. Therefore, it can be said that Shaquille O'Neal's trade made way for Paul Gasol's trade.


That's the problem. This trade didn't happen thanks to what the Lakers got for Gasol. It only happened because Kwame was a expirer. Any other big expirer would have worked exactly the same.

And, in case the Lakers didn't have a big expirer, this trade would have never ever happened.

It's an independent move, totally unrelated to the previous ones.


I somewhat agree that you can't "combine" the trades, if you will. But here is something to look at...the Caron Butler/Kwame Brown trade was a horrible one by Kupcheck, but look at what he turned it in to...what a bounceback. I think that is what 32 is trying to point out...am I right?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:55 am
sleandres wrote:I somewhat agree that you can't "combine" the trades, if you will. But here is something to look at...the Caron Butler/Kwame Brown trade was a horrible one by Kupcheck, but look at what he turned it in to...what a bounceback. I think that is what 32 is trying to point out...am I right?


Yeah, I get it. But didn't happen because of Kwame's value. His only value was as a expirer. Any other player under similar circumstances would have worked exactly the same.

It's a commendable move, yeah... but unrelated to the previous ones.

Sooooo... it would be something like this:


Shaquille O'Neal ----> Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant.- Decent move. Got two prime time players and a role player for Shaq. Not bad.

Caron Butler (and Chucky Atkins) -----> Kwame Brown.- Absolutely awful trade. Retarded move. Funny thing is that everybody knew it was a bad move when it happened.

Kwame Brown (and Jarvis Crittinton) ------> Pau Gasol.- Steal. Chris Wallace is a moron that should be fired and not allowed to step into a NBA court ever again in his life.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:15 pm
TMC wrote:
sleandres wrote:I somewhat agree that you can't "combine" the trades, if you will. But here is something to look at...the Caron Butler/Kwame Brown trade was a horrible one by Kupcheck, but look at what he turned it in to...what a bounceback. I think that is what 32 is trying to point out...am I right?


Yeah, I get it. But didn't happen because of Kwame's value. His only value was as a expirer. Any other player under similar circumstances would have worked exactly the same.

It's a commendable move, yeah... but unrelated to the previous ones.

Sooooo... it would be something like this:


Shaquille O'Neal ----> Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant.- Decent move. Got two prime time players and a role player for Shaq. Not bad.

Caron Butler (and Chucky Atkins) -----> Kwame Brown.- Absolutely awful trade. Retarded move. Funny thing is that everybody knew it was a bad move when it happened.

Kwame Brown (and Jarvis Crittinton) ------> Pau Gasol.- Steal. Chris Wallace is a moron that should be fired and not allowed to step into a NBA court ever again in his life.


OK, it is just not every GM that can bounceback from a horrible trade. Many bad trades can destroy an organization. Kupcheck was able to survive that horrific trade.

So you are correct, the trades have nothing to do with each other...other than the fact that the Lakers were involved in both of them :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:26 am
TMC wrote:
32 wrote:The Pau Gasol trade that the Lakers just made could not have happened without the assets Los Angeles aquired in the Shaq trade. Therefore, it can be said that Shaquille O'Neal's trade made way for Paul Gasol's trade.


That's the problem. This trade didn't happen thanks to what the Lakers got for Gasol. It only happened because Kwame was a expirer. Any other big expirer would have worked exactly the same.

And, in case the Lakers didn't have a big expirer, this trade would have never ever happened.

It's an independent move, totally unrelated to the previous ones.

That's irrelevant, though. The fact is, the Lakers did have an expirer... and it just happened to be the guy they got in exchange for Caron Butler, who was aquired in the Shaq trade. Kwame Brown, as talentless as he is, served a purpose in the Gasol trade that could not have happened without the Shaquille O'Neal trade. Even if we can all agree that they aren't "combining" anything (don't know where that statement came from in the first place), its pretty obvious that both blockbusters were related because they were dealing with, virtually, the same pieces.

Bottom line: if the Lakers did not make the exact deal they made when sending Shaquille O'Neal to Miami, they would not have Pau Gasol. Period. Underline. And I think we, as critical people, need to stop bashing Chris Wallace and give Mitch Kupchak a little more credit. He's managed to get the Lakers back into the title hunt in barely 4 years. That's pretty damn quick, after rebuilding from scratch with only Kobe Bryant left over.
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