On The Subject Of God & Religion

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:32 pm
I have zero problem with anyone believing whatever they want, so long as they aren't imposing their beliefs on me. Sadly, most dogmas, including Christianity, Islam, Marxism, Maoism, etc..have absolutist tendencies, which at their most noxious manifestations, result in burning heretics at the stake or beheading them. Buddhism is a conspicuous exception to that trend. Leaving aside the fact that virtually everything in Christianity and Islam is a reworking of other myths (including the resurrection), I cannot subscribe to explanations of creation and existence come up with by primitivist superstitious folks who believed the sun revolved around the earth and that eclipses were the wrath of God. Latest estimates are that there are between 2 and 8,000,000,000,000 planets in the known universe with life at least as intelligent as ours, so I believe the only rational response is to embrace the mystery. Like I said, so long as no one is holding a gun to my head so that I subscribe to their beliefs, folks can believe in Jesus, Dionysus, Mithra, Buddha, the flying spaghetti monster or even that Bush won Florida. (well, maybe not that last one). John Lennon had a good line on this "God is a concept by which we measure our pain." BTW, Joseph Campbell is a great place to start if folks are interested in exploring how the different religions all borrow and build on each others myths (paging Carl Jung).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:51 pm
Rumour has it that the universe is no longer to be considered ... endless?

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So what are we going to do with this thing?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:32 pm
kfresh wrote:Old Testament. Sexual Perversion, Incest at the temples -- because the people had stray away from the Lord and plan their lives for themselves.


INCEST (Only a few examples)
1)- Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. God did nothing to stop this incest! All resulting sons have god's favor as well!
19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

2)- Abram's (Abraham) wife (not the only one by the way) is his half sister!
20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.


SEXUAL PERVERSION (As moral people would see it)
1)- Sarai is the first of a long line of barren women who were desperate for children. (In the Bible, it is the women who are barren, never the men.) She sends Abram into her handmaid, Hagar, so that she can "obtain children by her." Abram gladly complies. Notice at the end how Sarai is angry and "despises Hagar the serveant, who was following orders and was not at fault! This happened before god allowed Sarai to get pregnant with Abram, god could have done this earlier and avoided the"adultery" which he accepted!!!!
16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

2)- Judah (the just and god favored man) has casual sex with a Canaanite woman which results in two sons, Er and Onan. 38:2-4
38:2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.

3)- After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto thy brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

4)- Tamar (the widow of Er and Onan, who were killed by God) dresses up as a prostitute and Judah (her father-in-law) propositions her, saying: "Let me come in unto thee .... And he ... came in unto her, and she conceived by him." From this incestuous union, twins (38:27-28) were born (both were boys of course). One of these was Pharez -- an ancestor of Jesus (Lk.3:33). 38:13-18 (Again Judah, the righteous man of god, commits another act of sexual perversion as he picked up a prostitute, doesn't matter who it was it was a whore all the same. One wonders how many times this character picked up a whore. God doesn't punish him but kills the widow of his son who had sex with him)
38:13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
38:16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
38:17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
38:18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.


JUST SOME EXAMPLES OF CRAP THAT WERE NOT CONDEMNED BY THE BIBLICAL GOD BUT ACTUALLY APPROVED!!!!


kfresh wrote:Tribes Killing each other -- same thing. Show me several verses of you seeing that it was God commanding the Tribes killing each other. Maybe i can shed light and bring some perspective.


1)- These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.



kfresh wrote:well your probably thinking how about the sacrifice of animals? that law pertains before the permanent Lamb's sacrifice - Jesus Christ. Temporary solution for the sinful people of the World to be able to have a relationship with a perfect God.


Any individual that requires taking of life for anything, especially for their acceptance, is not perfect or all powerful but a fraud in need of counciling or death, if they do not change!


- God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9

Some examples -
1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar

1:6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD".

1:15 And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:

4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.

7:1 Likewise this is the law of the trespass offering: it is most holy

7:2 In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.

7:3 And he shall offer of it all the fat thereof; the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards,

7:4 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul that is above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away:


THIS ONE TAKES THE CAKE:

7:30 His own hands shall bring the offerings of the LORD made by fire, the fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved for a wave offering before the LORD. (7:30-36) Wave the fat and the breast for "a wave offering before the Lord."
God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today?
7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat upon the altar: but the breast shall be Aaron's and his sons'.
7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest for an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.
7:33 He among the sons of Aaron, that offereth the blood of the peace offerings, and the fat, shall have the right shoulder for his part.
7:34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel.

Have you made your heave offering today?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:10 pm
TMC wrote:I'm not going to add anything to this thread. Talking about religion only serves for trouble. When someone believes something that gets in conflict with other people's beliefs, there's trouble without exception, and usually it ends pretty bad. That will never change.

So I just try to respect as much as I can other people beliefs, and try not to argue about anything as personal as that. It's pointless.




ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

I just research and go by facts and I am obviously not an admirer of those who mainpulate. lie and are fascist!!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:24 pm
Dude, you need to calm down.... :shock:

Taking text from the Old Testament of the bible and trying to view it in a modern context is just silly. I'm pretty sure way back then Incest wouldn't have been nearly as big a problem as people see it as now. If we sprang from Adam and Eve, then incest would have been a necesity for some time. Sure its Taboo now, but we have billions of people to choose from other than blood relatives. These are stories from a different time, and should be treated as such.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

I just research and go by facts and I am obviously not an admirer of those who mainpulate. lie and are fascist!!!!


Migya, mate......take a step back and go over some of your posts and poeples responses to you. Nothing against your opinions, but you seem to be the only person here PUSHING your point of view and going out of your way to show why so many people out there are wrong. Again mate, no offense, but just let people be who they wanna be.

Cheers,

Carl.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:38 pm
breezer_79 wrote:Dude, you need to calm down.... :shock:

Taking text from the Old Testament of the bible and trying to view it in a modern context is just silly.

That's exactly what I said.

People who overthink things usually don't have faith.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:48 pm
I'm just showing how people are easily controoled and most people who folow the bible will tell you that the all mighty god never changed and that laws that come from this god have always been what they are and never changed because this god is unchangeable and infallible - What a crok!

That's all I'm saying - Look at the facts and then have a cleaer view. If you are religious, as long as you respect me and others, I will respect you and we can drink up and party on :D
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:22 pm
I am agnostic. I believe there could be a supernatural entity or entities. I don't think that we can define it at the moment. I am budhist to some extent(except I don't believe in reincarnation or karma) but I don't believe that it's a religion. I think it's a philosophy. Philosophy directly translates to love of knowledge. I think there are philosophical parts of religion, and there are parts of religion that are legends. I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe. It is often what they were taught since birth. It does show a hole in the logical armor to jump headfirst into a faith that one has no knowledge exists. Then again, we only have one life and we should live it how we want. If believing in the supernatural, in lack of control, keeps you from being stressed then it's a good thing. If it leads you to start massacres (crusades, kkk, blood lible, jihads, etc) then it's a bad thing. More people have been killed in the name of jesus than any other man, but he was probably directly or indirectly the source of the source of more kind deeds than any other. I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe, as long as they don't impose their beliefs on to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:28 pm
Well, so far, the people WITHOUT the faith are the ones who are trying to impose their believes on the ones WITH the faith. :oops:
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:32 pm
"I have zero problem with anyone believing whatever they want"
- coltraning
"I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe"
- disease

I haven't read the other two pages, so maybe there was something else
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:47 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:"I have zero problem with anyone believing whatever they want"
- coltraning
"I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe"
- disease

I haven't read the other two pages, so maybe there was something else

SoCool asked an excellent and interesting question and from what I can see, we are all simply expressing our views. BTW, the off-topic forum is a perfect place for it, just like the cheerleaders thread...I agree, Pest. maybe someone said what 32 alleges, but I haven't read it, and I've read the whole thread. Migya quotes some fascinating stuff from the bible. The new testament has some equally facinating stuff (for example, try to tell a coherent story of the resurrection where the 4 gospels don't contradict each other in important details. Pretty much impossible. try it for yourself!) However, I have never met an atheist who wanted to forbid people from believing, whereas I have met religiousfolks who want to KILL people who don't believe or believe something different. That's pretty interesting as a distinction. I know my quote speaks for itself...pretty simple and declarative English. Oh, and btw, there's a difference between being a "nonbeliever"and not subscribing to the major religions. Lots of other stuff to believe in out there...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:24 am
SoCooLBob wrote:
Thinking ... "That will never change"


Is something that may make things more difficult.


I was only talking about religion, Bob. That will never change because people can choose what they want to believe, and, being a faith issue, which, in essence, means it can't be proved right or wrong, how can it be changed?. You either believe or don't.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:16 am
migya wrote:
kfresh wrote:Old Testament. Sexual Perversion, Incest at the temples -- because the people had stray away from the Lord and plan their lives for themselves.


INCEST (Only a few examples)
1)- Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. God did nothing to stop this incest! All resulting sons have god's favor as well!
19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

2)- Abram's (Abraham) wife (not the only one by the way) is his half sister!
20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.


SEXUAL PERVERSION (As moral people would see it)
1)- Sarai is the first of a long line of barren women who were desperate for children. (In the Bible, it is the women who are barren, never the men.) She sends Abram into her handmaid, Hagar, so that she can "obtain children by her." Abram gladly complies. Notice at the end how Sarai is angry and "despises Hagar the serveant, who was following orders and was not at fault! This happened before god allowed Sarai to get pregnant with Abram, god could have done this earlier and avoided the"adultery" which he accepted!!!!
16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

2)- Judah (the just and god favored man) has casual sex with a Canaanite woman which results in two sons, Er and Onan. 38:2-4
38:2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.

3)- After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto thy brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

4)- Tamar (the widow of Er and Onan, who were killed by God) dresses up as a prostitute and Judah (her father-in-law) propositions her, saying: "Let me come in unto thee .... And he ... came in unto her, and she conceived by him." From this incestuous union, twins (38:27-28) were born (both were boys of course). One of these was Pharez -- an ancestor of Jesus (Lk.3:33). 38:13-18 (Again Judah, the righteous man of god, commits another act of sexual perversion as he picked up a prostitute, doesn't matter who it was it was a whore all the same. One wonders how many times this character picked up a whore. God doesn't punish him but kills the widow of his son who had sex with him)
38:13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
38:16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
38:17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
38:18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.


JUST SOME EXAMPLES OF CRAP THAT WERE NOT CONDEMNED BY THE BIBLICAL GOD BUT ACTUALLY APPROVED!!!!


kfresh wrote:Tribes Killing each other -- same thing. Show me several verses of you seeing that it was God commanding the Tribes killing each other. Maybe i can shed light and bring some perspective.


1)- These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.



kfresh wrote:well your probably thinking how about the sacrifice of animals? that law pertains before the permanent Lamb's sacrifice - Jesus Christ. Temporary solution for the sinful people of the World to be able to have a relationship with a perfect God.


Any individual that requires taking of life for anything, especially for their acceptance, is not perfect or all powerful but a fraud in need of counciling or death, if they do not change!


- God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9

Some examples -
1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar

1:6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD".

1:15 And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:

4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.

7:1 Likewise this is the law of the trespass offering: it is most holy

7:2 In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.

7:3 And he shall offer of it all the fat thereof; the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards,

7:4 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul that is above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away:


THIS ONE TAKES THE CAKE:

7:30 His own hands shall bring the offerings of the LORD made by fire, the fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved for a wave offering before the LORD. (7:30-36) Wave the fat and the breast for "a wave offering before the Lord."
God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today?
7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat upon the altar: but the breast shall be Aaron's and his sons'.
7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest for an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.
7:33 He among the sons of Aaron, that offereth the blood of the peace offerings, and the fat, shall have the right shoulder for his part.
7:34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel.

Have you made your heave offering today?


Technically if everything started off thru adam and eve.. im SURE anyone with a reasonable mind would assume incest occured. they had there children and lets guess how the population grew from just the family themselves. yes incest. over the years incest HAS definitely changed. Later on [take it into context] the values of society changed drastically and it was those who were at the temple with the prostitutes and having sex with their kids who were straying away from the Lord. EARLY EARLY old testament - LOGICALLY incest was there - how can u draw forth a population of the world if u can't plant your seed. Society changes,value changes, law changes - thus the arrival of the new testament. AND Obviously incest over the years had a different perspective on the way society viewed it and THUS the law changed. Please. dont just take things for what they say, BUT actually read into it and think. Understanding the bible doesnt happen over night or through a website. please.

Um i believe you were also mentioning the taking of life.

Killing the animals was not for the Lord but a temporary solution until the permanent lamb [Jesus Christ] would arrive.
If you would know and studied, the Lord God is a perfect being. Anything perfect can not deal with the situation of imperfection and sin.
The sacrifice of animals [which are souless thus do not have an afterlife] in the olden olden days were FAR from ruthless. Notice the Lord God WILL never ask to sacrifice mankind. Again society changes, the world changes, laws changes in adjustment to these changes. Context, understanding, and the thought process is key.

As far as genocide in old testament, If people grow up in a culture that accepts things like murder and rape, very few will listen to their conscience and go against what everyone else says. Children learn wrong things from their parents and the surrounding culture; as they mature, they become part of the culture and perpetuate it by participating in it and passing on its teachings to their children.

Those who were righteous were spared from the destruction. Small children did not share the guilt of their parents.
The Bible also clearly teaches that one person is not held guilty for another's sin Ezekial Ch. 18. Therefore, the children who were killed would not face the same punishment in the afterlife as their parents. THUS, they will share eternal life with the Father and those who believe. If you learn about the Bible, you must learn death on earth is just merely a transition to eternal glory and joy with the Father. THEN you might ask why would he take li

If i can refer to an analogy - Gods use of death is comparable to someone burning a fire in a fireplace. it can be controlled, lit or extinguished at will, and used for a purpose. In contrast, humans use of death is like setting fire to a dry field. the fire rages out of control, and consequently is dangerous and destructive.


Why didn't God translate the children into heaven instead of having them die by the sword? Since the children lived in a world affected by sin, they faced its earthly consequences Rom 5:12-14. God is a fair GOD, he is JUST, HE is CONSTANT, He is Fair and will bring Justice. He is always consistent yet Truly UNderstanding. TRUST me, I HAD QUESTIONS and DOUBTS when i was discovering the TRUTH about GOd CHristianity and Jesus Christ. I Doubted far more than even you miggy. And thru patience and an open heart i learned more and understand.

Some people assume that Christianity doesn't require any thought on the part of the Christian, but is merely a simpleminded following of God's commands. In practice, Christianity requires as much thought as following any comprehensive set of moral standards does. God doesn't provide detailed, individual instructions for each person to follow throughout their lives--- he gave us the capacity to think critically and make decisions, and he expects us to develop and use that capacity. At the same time, he doesnt want us to do wrong and so he provides what guidance and instruction is necessary.

God is not a human who has somehow acquired great power; instead he is Deity, a supernatural being who is far superior to humans and who has a perfect mind and heart. And the only way to even actually to know that God is perfect, you GOTTA first know who God is. If you don't know God personally, then you will never understand him fully.

Humans have finite understanding. Its our nature, sometimes we don't see thing perfectly and it is understandable. But if you allow God over time to bring forth understanding to your open heart understanding will come. It doesn't come overnight, it comes with great thought effort, and you must have teh will to learn about God and understand why He did the things He did, why was it Just, etc it goes on.

coming from an strong athiest I KNEW if i didnt have full confidence in the bible that it was 100% true i would not CONVERT.

you're arguements are simple and have been brought up many times in councils and trials and debates between athiestic followers against Christian Doctrine followers. No matter how many time the professor sought to attack the Doctrine of Christianity - til today there has been no FLAW and IS the only religion in the world that has not been proven wrong against historically. Christianity has been proven through time, trial/debate, experiment, and historically. The only one to pass.

Context is something that must not be taken out of place. To understand the old testament - you must understand the diety of God, the doctrine of christianity involving sin - justice - punishment - eternal life -, the society of old times, the values and morals of the old days and not read it using our values and context today.

it takes greater faith to believe in chance and luck
than against a divine being existing from the beginning and to the end.
proof? science. the design of the world, the universe.
1 mile closer, or 1 mile farther - life would not exist on earth.
the design of DNA, the design of RNA, the design of Cells and Atoms, Cell reproduction, molecular units which all point to one thing. A glorious and divine Creator.

well that was that and hopefully i can share more if your heart is open and mind is willing.

and NO I HAVE NOT [AND DO NOT NEED TO] MADE MY HEAVE OFFERING today since OFFERINGS ARE CUT OFF THROUGH THE DEATH OF THE PERMANENT LAMB - JESUS CHRIST, LORD and SAVIOR THE way the light the path to eternal life.
In the Golden State of Mind since '97.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:22 am
coltraning wrote:Migya quotes some fascinating stuff from the bible. The new testament has some equally facinating stuff (for example, try to tell a coherent story of the resurrection where the 4 gospels don't contradict each other in important details. Pretty much impossible. try it for yourself!)


You said it right!!!!

I've got a heap of facts about the old and new testaments that just don't add up and contradict eachother!

Look at this website and you will get many examples http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html


coltraning wrote:However, I have never met an atheist who wanted to forbid people from believing, whereas I have met religiousfolks who want to KILL people who don't believe or believe something different. That's pretty interesting as a distinction.


Again you said it right!

Almost every war in history has been brought on by those that claim to be peaceful and have the right faith! The ones that mind their own busines and don't try to put their beliefs on others are always the ones that are the victims!
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migya make the ring fall on ya
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:59 am
On the subject of everyone decending from Adam and Eve - I am a geneticist but it doesn't take a scientific degree to understand that if Eve was Adam's rib, she was an exact clone of Adam but with two X chromosomes as opposed to Adam having X and Y chromosomes.

POINT = No way can you get so much diversity (Black race, white race, arab race and asian race to keep it very simple) from two exact clones!

THINK ABOUT THAT ONE
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