#32 wrote:I'm really not sure what you mean here, so I can't respond. It sounds like you think Nelson playing Murphy at center was just (for lack of a better term) a publicity stunt. All I can really say is that I doubt Nelson would take an 'L' just to prove some unknown point to the fans.

Yeah, that's also my point. He tried to make it work with the guys that the front office signed and saw it was going to be worth more Ls than Ws. So he changed. We agree.

#32 wrote:

TMC wrote:Incriminate is a word too strong for what we're saying.

I don't think so. Everybody's acting like it's purely Nelson's fault that this team is at .500 (as opposed to a higher record).

How can that be when I'm saying NELLIE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB OVERALL?. This is strictly related to Ike's situation. He's been doing a good regarding any other aspect of the team. But I'm not talking about that.

#32 wrote:

TMC wrote:And if Ike is such a cancer, say it. He's just dropping hints that Ike ain't ready (or that he's a blamer or sh*t like that). If there's something substantial behind them, say it. That hasn't happened yet. Other players are less ready than him and it's all praise (like Dajuan Wagner in preseason. He's going to be back and be a key to the team. Suddenly, he's cut and out of the league again...)

I seriously doubt Nelson would BS around something if there was anything to be said. To his credit, Nelson's always been honest with the fans. That was one of the most frustating things about the Monty-Era; nobody knew what was going on backstage. With Nelson, the guy's shooting off new quotes every day. I seriously doubt he's hiding something (and, if he is, it's to protect Diogu, not hinder him).

My point is, according to Ike (it's in one of Colt's post in the news forum), there's no communication between them. It's not about quotes to appeal the fans. The issue here is Ike, who doesn't know what to do to get out of the doghouse. That's not the sign of someone that believes Ike can help. I haven't read a single sentence of praise for Ike coming from Nellie. Not a single one. Everything it's criticism. Doesn't know the book, he's a blamer (and he seems to avoid answering questions about Ike, which makes it even worse)... and Ike doesn't even know what he's doing wrong.

Guess Ike's not the only blamer in the team...

TMC wrote:

#32 wrote:
My point is, according to Ike (it's in one of Colt's post in the news forum), there's no communication between them. It's not about quotes to appeal the fans. The issue here is Ike, who doesn't know what to do to get out of the doghouse. That's not the sign of someone that believes Ike can help. I haven't read a single sentence of praise for Ike coming from Nellie. Not a single one. Everything it's criticism. Doesn't know the book, he's a blamer (and he seems to avoid answering questions about Ike, which makes it even worse)... and Ike doesn't even know what he's doing wrong.

Guess Ike's not the only blamer in the team...

yeah, that's pretty much the nub of it.

TMC wrote:

#32 wrote:

TMC wrote:Incriminate is a word too strong for what we're saying.

I don't think so. Everybody's acting like it's purely Nelson's fault that this team is at .500 (as opposed to a higher record).

How can that be when I'm saying NELLIE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB OVERALL?. This is strictly related to Ike's situation. He's been doing a good regarding any other aspect of the team. But I'm not talking about that.

Well, when people start claiming "Ike could have been the difference in" this or that game, it becomes a debate as to Nelson effecting the team winning. When "Nelson could have put in Ike", and "Ike could have won us the game", it questions Nelson's ability to help the Warriors win.

I'm not specifically targeting you, TMC. migya, for one, made the comment that Diogu could have given Golden State the victory.

TMC wrote:My point is, according to Ike (it's in one of Colt's post in the news forum), there's no communication between them. It's not about quotes to appeal the fans. The issue here is Ike, who doesn't know what to do to get out of the doghouse. That's not the sign of someone that believes Ike can help. I haven't read a single sentence of praise for Ike coming from Nellie. Not a single one. Everything it's criticism. Doesn't know the book, he's a blamer (and he seems to avoid answering questions about Ike, which makes it even worse)... and Ike doesn't even know what he's doing wrong.

Guess Ike's not the only blamer in the team...

Nelson said this, prior to the season:

Don Nelson wrote:Ike is very good against his guy. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that's going to happen that's going to complicate the game. And the same with Monta. They're going to take his strength away and make him go to his weakness. Or make him go to the double-team down in the low box. He has to learn how to deal with those things.

Very first sentence says, "Ike is VERY GOOD AGAINST HIS MAN." But what happens when Ike gets double-teamed? Well, as seen this year, it often creates turnovers. Wow. Who could have forseen that???

We all know that Ike couldn't handle double-teams, when he played. And Nelly knew this going into the season. We also knew Diogu didn't know the book. Nelson runs a fast paced game that demands everyone knows where they're at. Ike has serious problems, for a Nelly system. But they aren't impossible to rectify; they just take a little bit of time. It's not hard to see that.

Maybe Nelson's holding Diogu back in the same way he's holding O'Bryant; he's waiting until he's actually READY before he puts him in, prematurely, and shatters his confidence. It took Andris Biedrins 2 seasons before he got a full-time position on the team; now he looks like an All-Star (and NOBODY can claim the kid could have done this last year because he was hacking like crazy, couldn't hit a free throw, and didn't have that baby hook we're seeing now). Development. A big part of the NBA, for guys 6'8" and over.

Big men take longer to develop. Maybe Nelson actually wants Ike to be a star, rather than a streaky-scoring premadonna who doesn't know the playbook.

#32 wrote:Well, when people start claiming "Ike could have been the difference in" this or that game, it becomes a debate as to Nelson effecting the team winning. When "Nelson could have put in Ike", and "Ike could have won us the game", it questions Nelson's ability to help the Warriors win.

Ok, but this is a thread about Ike, so, in this thread, I'm approaching Nellie from the Ike's point of view. I'm not talking about anything else he's done, which has been mostly positive. Just about Ike's play time.

#32 wrote:Nelson said this, prior to the season:

Don Nelson wrote:Ike is very good against his guy. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that's going to happen that's going to complicate the game. And the same with Monta. They're going to take his strength away and make him go to his weakness. Or make him go to the double-team down in the low box. He has to learn how to deal with those things.

Very first sentence says, "Ike is VERY GOOD AGAINST HIS MAN." But what happens when Ike gets double-teamed? Well, as seen this year, it often creates turnovers. Wow. Who could have forseen that???

We all know that Ike couldn't handle double-teams, when he played. And Nelly knew this going into the season. We also knew Diogu didn't know the book. Nelson runs a fast paced game that demands everyone knows where they're at. Ike has serious problems, for a Nelly system. But they aren't impossible to rectify; they just take a little bit of time. It's not hard to see that.

Maybe Nelson's holding Diogu back in the same way he's holding O'Bryant; he's waiting until he's actually READY before he puts him in, prematurely, and shatters his confidence. It took Andris Biedrins 2 seasons before he got a full-time position on the team; now he looks like an All-Star (and NOBODY can claim the kid could have done this last year because he was hacking like crazy, couldn't hit a free throw, and didn't have that baby hook we're seeing now). Development. A big part of the NBA, for guys 6'8" and over.

Big men take longer to develop. Maybe Nelson actually wants Ike to be a star, rather than a streaky-scoring premadonna who doesn't know the playbook.

Great, all true. But that doesn't say anything about their relationship. That doesn't say anything about why Ike doesn't know what to do to earn playing time. How can any player develop when his coach doesn't even tell him what he's supposed to do?.

There are only two options. Either Nellie is snubbing Ike, or Ike is dumb as f*ck.

We all see Dre growing up before our eyes. Just imagine Ike in year 3-5...He'll be a monster ala Corliss Williamson, but with adquate D and a more polished offensive game along the line of Zach Randolph. Ike has 2 SERIOUSLY EF UP for me not 2 support him---***030***---

So much speculation, so little info...what we do know is that Nelson has publicly called Ike out, and, for no reason evident to the naked eye, DNPed him 2 straight games directly following Ike getting 31 points in 35 minutes on 70% shooting (point production per minute unequaled by any W this season). We all know that Nelson has butted heads with other players on several occasions in the past. the most notable example is Ewing, badmouthed big time by Nelson, despite the fact that hall of fame coaches John Thompson, Pat Riley and Hubie Brown had only good things to say about Ewing. I see a pattern here. Do you think Ewing became a malcontent under Nelson and went back to being a popular team leader under Van Gundy, 32? That makes no sense to me. I'd like to know your thoughts on the whole Nelson/Ewing debacle...
It will all come out in the wash, but I reiterate, there is a back story here than none of us know, and I have seen enough of Nelson playing favorites and publicly shaming players to not assume he is being straight when he lays it all on Ike.

The point here is, at least from my side: Murphy and dun (the two biggest and pretty much only examples) have been awful this season and they get plenty of playing time! Even if they know the "play book" it has amounted to sweet fukall!

Diogu has performed great in the minutes he has played and the team has done well when he has played, even if he doesn't know the "play book"!

It is illogical to play two guys, one (Murphy) who plays the same position as Diogu regularly and not play the player that is performing better, much better in fact. Nelson said before the season started that the players that play the best will be the ones that play and it doesn't hold true in this case, with Murphy and dun getting the minutes and Diogu not

#32 wrote:when people start claiming "Ike could have been the difference in" this or that game, it becomes a debate as to Nelson effecting the team winning. When "Nelson could have put in Ike", and "Ike could have won us the game", it questions Nelson's ability to help the Warriors win.

I'm not specifically targeting you, TMC. migya, for one, made the comment that Diogu could have given Golden State the victory.

I certainly do believe that and it is true! When a player is playing well and doesn't get alot of minutes and the team loses by a small margin, that player could and most probably would have made the difference! This has happened with the team in three games this season that I can remember! You take one of the best players away from any team or play him little minutes and it will have the same effect

migya wrote:The point here is, at least from my side: Murphy and dun (the two biggest and pretty much only examples) have been awful this season and they get plenty of playing time! Even if they know the "play book" it has amounted to sweet fukall!

Diogu has performed great in the minutes he has played and the team has done well when he has played, even if he doesn't know the "play book"!

It is illogical to play two guys, one (Murphy) who plays the same position as Diogu regularly and not play the player that is performing better, much better in fact. Nelson said before the season started that the players that play the best will be the ones that play and it doesn't hold true in this case, with Murphy and dun getting the minutes and Diogu not

#32 wrote:when people start claiming "Ike could have been the difference in" this or that game, it becomes a debate as to Nelson effecting the team winning. When "Nelson could have put in Ike", and "Ike could have won us the game", it questions Nelson's ability to help the Warriors win.

I'm not specifically targeting you, TMC. migya, for one, made the comment that Diogu could have given Golden State the victory.

I certainly do believe that and it is true! When a player is playing well and doesn't get alot of minutes and the team loses by a small margin, that player could and most probably would have made the difference! This has happened with the team in three games this season that I can remember! You take one of the best players away from any team or play him little minutes and it will have the same effect

yup......I have only one observation: either A) They are about to trade Diogu or B) Nelson is punishing him for some real or imagined transgression. Only explanation for being well on his way to 3rd straight DNP

#32 wrote:

migya wrote:a) Apparently he was "ragging" on a poof player that is a disgrace and known for blaming others (dun), a player that is in need of a rag!

Nope. It takes more than one incident for Nelson to label a guy "a complainer".

I disagree, Nelson has a tendency to label people. Nelson would most certainly label a guy a complainer after one instance.

This thread and debate has much merit; however, we may be overlooking the obvious: Ike does not fit into Nelson's style of coaching. If that is the case, shouldn't Mullin trade Ike for somebody who does?

Ike plays in the paint, is physical, gets to the line, grabs rebounds, all things that do not fit into a Nelson coached team.

uptempo wrote:This thread and debate has much merit; however, we may be overlooking the obvious: Ike does not fit into Nelson's style of coaching. If that is the case, shouldn't Mullin trade Ike for somebody who does?

Ike plays in the paint, is physical, gets to the line, grabs rebounds, all things that do not fit into a Nelson coached team.

But Biedrins plays inside as well and yet he flourishes! Yes, he scores more off passes but so can Diogu. When the team is stagnating offensively, as has been the case the last few weeks, and things are not going smoothly, putting Diogu in and going through him gets things going better and other guys can feed off of that. That type of skill is good for ALL coaches!

migya wrote:

uptempo wrote:This thread and debate has much merit; however, we may be overlooking the obvious: Ike does not fit into Nelson's style of coaching. If that is the case, shouldn't Mullin trade Ike for somebody who does?

Ike plays in the paint, is physical, gets to the line, grabs rebounds, all things that do not fit into a Nelson coached team.

But Biedrins plays inside as well and yet he flourishes! Yes, he scores more off passes but so can Diogu. When the team is stagnating offensively, as has been the case the last few weeks, and things are not going smoothly, putting Diogu in and going through him gets things going better and other guys can feed off of that. That type of skill is good for ALL coaches!

I agree with you; however, Nelson obviously does not. Ike looks like he is pressing, cannot pass out of the double team, and just may need to move on in order to flourish.

That same philosophy would have = getting rid of Bedrins prematurely

O.G. broe wrote:That same philosophy would have = getting rid of Bedrins prematurely

That's right but the thing is that Nelson has given Biedrins a chance but not Diogu and it looks like he won't, though hopefully that will change, and Nelson is here for three years so it looks bad for Diogu

Biedrins couldn't have played the way he is this season during the 2005-06 campaign. That's unquestionable.

The guy had no offensive game (no baby hook, no muscle for inside position or rebounding, ect) and he was clearly a hacker. Andris Biedrins was green and needed more time in the oven. Amazing what one, single season of development can accomplish, huh?

Right now, Ike Diogu doesn't know the playbook, he's a hacker, and he's screwing up on help defense. If Biedrins can correct his problems between Year 2 and Year 3, why can't Ike do the same?

It could be argued that Biedrins would have been an improvement over Foyle last year, but the kid wasn't rushed into a large role, giving him ample time to smooth out some of his rougher edges. Ike Diogu is the same thing. Give the guy another year to get sharper and the results will be brilliant.

Biedrins had greatness in him; but couldn't have achieved it until he corrected his mistakes. Diogu is the same way. Instead of pushing him out of the oven early, lets leave the guy in for another season and see how unstoppable he becomes next year.

I, for one, think it's for the best. I know a lot of starved fans want instant gratification from our recent draft picks, but it just can't happen out of the gate like that. Richardson and Ellis have been the only exceptions as of late. Pietrus, Biedrins, O'Bryant, Diogu, and even Chris Taft all looked incredibly raw out of the draft. Pietrus and Biedrins are just starting to break out. Chef and Diogu? They need a little more time. Give them the chance to be great, not just good.